Habsfan1989

5 years from now this team will need a rebuild.. Will fans and media allow it done the right way??

318 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

Wow, -3 for that post? People are in denial on this forum 

Anyone who wants Price gone for any reason is in denial, or not a true fan. And that includes the best reason there is which is the cap space. 

 

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1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Anyone who wants Price gone for any reason is in denial, or not a true fan. And that includes the best reason there is which is the cap space. 

 

Lol, that's your opinion ( I don't want him gone, but would have entertained the option). 

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4 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

Wow, -3 for that post? People are in denial on this forum 

 

I think fans are reacting to expectations in different ways. For some fans, like someone astutely mentioned earlier, a Saturday night win against the Bruins, a dominant Carey Price, and a shot at the division lead is more than enough. Maybe they even feel greedy? Or it can be an age issue...I'm 30 and my mother put me to bed during the 1993 playoffs. For me, the Habs of yore are a figment of my imagination, and I've followed arguably a bottom-5 franchise in the last two decades.

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4 minutes ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

I think fans are reacting to expectations in different ways. For some fans, like someone astutely mentioned earlier, a Saturday night win against the Bruins, a dominant Carey Price, and a shot at the division lead is more than enough. Maybe they even feel greedy? Or it can be an age issue...I'm 30 and my mother put me to bed during the 1993 playoffs. For me, the Habs of yore are a figment of my imagination, and I've followed arguably a bottom-5 franchise in the last two decades.

 

Hey, I'm pushing 50. I was in the Forum for the McSorley stick in Game Two. I was in the Forum a few night later to see the great Patrick Roy raise the Cup and holler in triumph right in front of us. I even high-fived Habs players as they reached down from the parade float. And believe you me, the ONLY goal I have as a fan is to see the Canadiens win that damned trophy again. That's one reason why Bergevin has been such a crashing disappointment. Five years on and the team isn't any closer now than it was in his second year at the helm. I thought he had a real chance to build a winner. Now I realize that we're most likely looking at more years of nothing.

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I love how people actually think tanking for years is a science that works, according to whom? Edmonton has spent 10 years swimming chest deep in a pool full of poop with their mouths wide open, and only just made a dent in a playoff run this season. news flash folks, still no guarantees they will do better next year, or that they will win a cup in the next 3 years. Same with Toronto, they had a good season finally after a decade of embarrassment, they give Washington a run for their money but get knocked out in round 1, suddenly that is the model of excellence? We have no clue what these teams will do next year, look at Florida, everyone thought finally after years and years of rebuilding they turned a corner only to fall flat on their faces the very next season. Buffalo has been at it for 10 years too, with no breakout season to show for, just a bunch of really talented kids who keep losing.

 

I'd rather re-tool on the fly around a different nucleus of young players, with a chance to remain in the mix, while trying to improve year after year until you hit a peak that is good enough to win. Rather than risk 10 years of misery for potentially no reward, I don't believe in that way of doing things, I have yet to see a team spend 10 years dumpster diving and be rewarded with even a Cup Final. I like the way Detroit did it, I like the way the Kings did it, I like the way the Rangers have been doing it, Nashville even. All teams who have spent years NOT being bottom feeders, and re-tooling their core when needed over the years to try and get more success than the previous core.

 

The next Nucleus to build around seems to be Drouin, Galchenyuk, and Lehkonen. If we can add some interesting pieces to that Nucleus over the next 3 to 5 years coupled with Price in net, we could see some interesting results.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Anyone who wants Price gone for any reason is in denial, or not a true fan. And that includes the best reason there is which is the cap space. 

 

Price has kept Bergevin employed. I don't want Bergevin employed. I don't want his friends employed. The only thing that would wake Molson up is Price walking. And there's absolutely no way Bergevin was ever going to trade him, so Carey would have to walk. 

 

Do I love Carey? I've defended him as much as anyone else here. In fact, I've made a point clear over and over: this team isn't good enough for him. It builds up defence in front of him in hopes for 1-0/2-1 victories instead of building up the offence so Price doesn't have to put up great numbers every regular season game or else this team misses the playoffs.

 

This team is a junkie and needs to cut its sugar daddy. But the sugar daddy got eight more years so it ain't happening anytime soon. 

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Its absolute craziness to believe that losing Price, with nothing in return, puts this team in a better position to win the cup. 

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Having Price gives us a better chance at winning. Carey Price is better than 9 out of 10 1st overall picks. He actually does have his weak moments but he's still a great foundation to build on. 

 

If our management team after Bergevin happen to be as incompetent as some feel Bergevin is, then there's no guarantee that we have a better offense even without Price on the team. Even if we did have better offense, it's so obvious to me that we would soon miss our goaltending of the past.

 

I've been fine being a fan of Jose Theodore playing above his potential, Jeff Hackett making highlight reel saves, Jaroslav Halak emulating a stop sign and the organization making the decision to keep Carey Price. 

 

The opposite extreme is being a fan of Philadelphia who have been a mess in goal and had their best season behind Michael Leighton, which consequently happens to be when clever hockey people began questioning... Does one really need an elite goalie to compete for the Stanley Cup? 

 

I feel as though the Habs have been more

consistent than literally any of the other teams people have been comparing them to outside of the Chicagos and Pittsburghs. Heck, when talking about the past decade, we've even been more consistent than a team like Washington as well, who only relatively recently developed their drafted Carey Price light. 

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21 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Its absolute craziness to believe that losing Price, with nothing in return, puts this team in a better position to win the cup. 

It doesn't. I never said it made the team better. 

 

But I believe Bergevin has poisoned the well in Montreal. The prospect pool is pretty much dry. Lefebvre is still in charge in the AHL. Front office is full of useless golf buddies who do next to nothing but keep getting raises. Lapointe seriously bragged about the total NHL games the front office had. He's no different to Kevin Lowe. 

 

I don't believe there's a player on the club that can overcome what Bergevin has done to ruin the Habs overall. And I have no faith in him, even when he makes decisions I like. 

 

I would have rather seen Price walk away from the team than continue watching this club unable to score in the playoffs. It didn't happen, so no sense debating it. Bergevin isn't getting fired anytime soon. 

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Did some of you even read the title of my post??? It's not talking about rebuilding now, it's talking about 5 years from now when price is 34. That's the age of when the decline   In a player starts. And at that time when it comes to thinking about trading him and rebuilding would fans and media accept a full on rebuild. Or are they just happy with the bandaid jobs to keep the team in the playoffs moves that always seem to happen here?

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9 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Hey, I'm pushing 50. I was in the Forum for the McSorley stick in Game Two. I was in the Forum a few night later to see the great Patrick Roy raise the Cup and holler in triumph right in front of us. I even high-fived Habs players as they reached down from the parade float. And believe you me, the ONLY goal I have as a fan is to see the Canadiens win that damned trophy again. That's one reason why Bergevin has been such a crashing disappointment. Five years on and the team isn't any closer now than it was in his second year at the helm. I thought he had a real chance to build a winner. Now I realize that we're most likely looking at more years of nothing.

 

Like you, I want to see this team win, or at least compete for the Stanley Cup. We've had two conference finals in the past decade that weren't competitive. There's some great fans on here, but I think as a collective base, that we've accepted mediocrity. I would like to hear somebody make the argument that we're contenders. Then, if not, to explain why we should keep a core and a management team intact after five seasons that can't get it done.

 

I've said a couple times, this faux optimism over a team that can run the table in a terrible division...it's very Leafy. Signing Carey Price was a big mistake. They should have gone all hands on deck last season and next and rebuilt. The problem is that no general manager gets to rebuild a team after a five year plan. 

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8 hours ago, Habsfan1989 said:

Did some of you even read the title of my post??? It's not talking about rebuilding now, it's talking about 5 years from now when price is 34. That's the age of when the decline   In a player starts. And at that time when it comes to thinking about trading him and rebuilding would fans and media accept a full on rebuild. Or are they just happy with the bandaid jobs to keep the team in the playoffs moves that always seem to happen here?

 

I did read  your post. 


You didn't answer my question.  Why do you think Price is going to decline at 34?  Goalies, especially elite goalies, typically have much better longevity than other positions. 

 

Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, Luongo, Tim Thomas, etc... how good were they at 34?

 

Why do we assume that hes going to be too old and that the team is going to need a rebuild then... especially since Drouin will be 27, Lehkonen 27, Galchenyuk 28, Danault 29, Gallagher 30, etc....

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10 hours ago, Commandant said:

Its absolute craziness to believe that losing Price, with nothing in return, puts this team in a better position to win the cup. 

No, he wants the team to bottom out and suck for years, like Columbus, Florida, Carolina, Buffalo, Islanders, Arizona etc. So really that would be a good first step...idiotic but.

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11 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Price has kept Bergevin employed. I don't want Bergevin employed. I don't want his friends employed. The only thing that would wake Molson up is Price walking. And there's absolutely no way Bergevin was ever going to trade him, so Carey would have to walk. 

 

Do I love Carey? I've defended him as much as anyone else here. In fact, I've made a point clear over and over: this team isn't good enough for him. It builds up defence in front of him in hopes for 1-0/2-1 victories instead of building up the offence so Price doesn't have to put up great numbers every regular season game or else this team misses the playoffs.

 

This team is a junkie and needs to cut its sugar daddy. But the sugar daddy got eight more years so it ain't happening anytime soon. 

Honestly man. That's a great analogy. 

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10 hours ago, Commandant said:

Its absolute craziness to believe that losing Price, with nothing in return, puts this team in a better position to win the cup. 

Amen!

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52 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

I did read  your post. 


You didn't answer my question.  Why do you think Price is going to decline at 34?  Goalies, especially elite goalies, typically have much better longevity than other positions. 

 

Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, Luongo, Tim Thomas, etc... how good were they at 34?

 

Why do we assume that hes going to be too old and that the team is going to need a rebuild then... especially since Drouin will be 27, Lehkonen 27, Galchenyuk 28, Danault 29, Gallagher 30, etc....

pretty sure roy lost to dallas in the western final at age 34 and brodeur rang off the first of back to back 40+ win seasons just to name a few

 

on top of that who knows what the prospect pool will bring in the next 5 years... hearing alot of good things of Ikonen drafted this year...

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I agree with Lovett's overall assessment of both the team and the fanbase. But I don't believe in tanking - too much risk of ending up like the Isles or the pre-McDavid Oilers. And there is not an NHL organization that would fail to lock up its franchise player on the grounds that it needs to tank. For that matter, letting Price walk as a UFA would be an act of gross negligence, franchise-destroying asset mismanagement. At most, we could criticize the deal for its blanket NTC.

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If there was game plan in place, where Bergevin traded Price for a #1 C plus maybe a prospect and also had a deal in place with Ben Bishop, I think I would do it. Just my opinion.

 

Obviously this would've had to happen before Bishop signed, but just an idea of what seems somewhat plausible 

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18 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

For that matter, letting Price walk as a UFA would be an act of gross negligence, franchise-destroying asset mismanagement. 

 

That's the whole point. And it wouldn't be Bergevin letting him walk as much as I wanted Carey to say, "This team is going nowhere. I'm chasing a ring."

 

As for five years from now, if Price doesn't get hurt he will still be a Top 5 goaltender. What he's going to struggle on is the miles. But hey, the team has a great prospect pool... for goalies. I'm sure Lingren or McNiven will pick up the slack for him the way Raanta and Talbot did for Lundqvist.

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9 hours ago, Habsfan1989 said:

Did some of you even read the title of my post??? It's not talking about rebuilding now, it's talking about 5 years from now when price is 34. That's the age of when the decline   In a player starts. And at that time when it comes to thinking about trading him and rebuilding would fans and media accept a full on rebuild. Or are they just happy with the bandaid jobs to keep the team in the playoffs moves that always seem to happen here?

 

Ha ha, welcome to the internet, where threads always spiral away in different directions! But if I had to answer your question, I would refer you to the Houle era. Those teams had no chance at all of winning anything, ever. And yet year after year they tended to be close to the bubble, winning just enough to fall a few points short of the playoffs, elevated by excellent coaching, goaltending, and gutsy leaders like Koivu and Corson. The fanbase responded by cheering desperately for the team to make the playoffs, frenziedly analyzing this or that move as if it made any difference. I don't remember row upon row of empty seats at the Molson Centre. If you want to see where we'll likely be in five or six years, look to that precedent.

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Don't make the Recchi and Roy trades and don't fire Saved/Demers (or at least replace them with real hockey people) and the 95-96 team would have been a top three team in the east with a legitimate shot at the Cup final.

 

With those trades the team was deep offensively with great depth. The defence had been dismantled though (which was why Roy was struggling) and having a young unproven like Thibault really capped them. 

 

By 96-97 they had further dismantled the club by giving away Turgeon and trying to bank on late 80s Habs like Richer and Corson and the damage was done. But you're right, some still supported them. I recall the team tried to get bigger and tougher with Linden and Zubrus and people were all for it. It was the Habs they always wanted and still want to this day. 

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2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Ha ha, welcome to the internet, where threads always spiral away in different directions! But if I had to answer your question, I would refer you to the Houle era. Those teams had no chance at all of winning anything, ever. And yet year after year they tended to be close to the bubble, winning just enough to fall a few points short of the playoffs, elevated by excellent coaching, goaltending, and gutsy leaders like Koivu and Corson. The fanbase responded by cheering desperately for the team to make the playoffs, frenziedly analyzing this or that move as if it made any difference. I don't remember row upon row of empty seats at the Molson Centre. If you want to see where we'll likely be in five or six years, look to that precedent.

Yeah from some of the response I see fans will never accept a full rebuild. I could imagine how the media would react.  I guess that's why this organization is behind in times, and why we haven't and probably won't win a cup any time soon.

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25 minutes ago, Habsfan1989 said:

Yeah from some of the response I see fans will never accept a full rebuild. I could imagine how the media would react.  I guess that's why this organization is behind in times, and why we haven't and probably won't win a cup any time soon.

 

This organization already ignores the fans with the, "If we listen to them we will be sitting with them" philosophy. Another management team comes in they can ignore the fans and media just fine. This organization has twice now ignored drafting anyone in the QMJHL. You think if the fans/media cries mattered that would have happened? Please.

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16 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

This organization already ignores the fans with the, "If we listen to them we will be sitting with them" philosophy. Another management team comes in they can ignore the fans and media just fine. This organization has twice now ignored drafting anyone in the QMJHL. You think if the fans/media cries mattered that would have happened? Please.

 

I suspect that established management teams in general are reluctant to go Full Rebuild. It's one thing to be like the Leafs management and be brought in for that specific purpose. But I'm talking about GMs who have been in place a while and who are accustomed to teams that are decent. First, such GMs don't want to be cellar-dwelling losers for an indefinite period of time; like players themselves, they're conditioned to want to 'be competitive,' to 'make the playoffs.' They are therefore likely to keep thinking in terms of that one or two 'key moves' that will somehow get the team where it needs to go - playing Whack-a-Mole, basically, but thinking that if you can just react a little bit better, get some luck, you'll have some success, dammit!! (I remember Pat Burns saying exactly that of the Leafs teams he coached: 'we kept thinking we were just one player away...') Second, ownership is unlikely to be very tolerant of a management team that inherited a strong core, led it nowhere, and now needs to start over. So going Full Rebuild most likely means getting fired. Were a rebuild to happen, it would follow, not precede, the firing of Marc Bergevin.

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4 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

Honestly man. That's a great analogy. 

I like the" wading chest deep in a pool of poop with your mouth open". Now that's a good analogy.

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