Habsfan1989

5 years from now this team will need a rebuild.. Will fans and media allow it done the right way??

318 posts in this topic

Would the fans and media accept a proper rebuild? I certainly think so. I think the better question is would Molson accept a rebuild? I don't know if Molson is a fan first or a balance sheet first kind of owner but I suspect making the playoffs for that revenue is very important and probably more important than actually winning the cup.

 

I really don't know much about Molson or what kind of owner he is. Has he ever given any indication either way?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Would the fans and media accept a proper rebuild? I certainly think so. I think the better question is would Molson accept a rebuild? I don't know if Molson is a fan first or a balance sheet first kind of owner but I suspect making the playoffs for that revenue is very important and probably more important than actually winning the cup.

 

I really don't know much about Molson or what kind of owner he is. Has he ever given any indication either way?

 

 

Allow the promotion of Cunnyworth then tossing him under the bus, was likely a good sign of his character or the lack of a backbone.

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3 hours ago, Link67 said:

 

We aren't even legitimate contenders yet, he knows that and so do we, what should he be doing? lying about it an making a lavish claim before the season that he expects this team to win a championship just to make you happy? Did David Poile say that about Nashville before the season? Of course not, because no one expected them to get to a cup final and neither did he, Bergevin doesn't expect us to win a cup and neither do we. So why should he set anything but a realistic goal, Make the playoffs, after that anything can happen, as teams have shown time and time again each and every year.

 

Just more unobjective rhetoric, pitch forks out, type of stuff, instead of looking around the league and noticing only 2 teams had even remotely made announcements such as the one you seem to want to see Bergevin making. Two teams made such claims, Pittsburgh and Chicago, one said they would like to repeat, the other said anything less than a cup is a failure for this core, 2 teams who have been the most successful of the past 5 or 6 years, that's it, that's all. Do you honestly believe us in that category? should Bergevin be making the same kind of claims as they do? what about all the other 29 teams, why aren't they doing that? Why is it only Bergevin gets inexplicably attacked for nonsense like being realistic with his expectations and that of the ones he wants to rest on his teams shoulders? Is he the only GM not making "Win a cup or Bust" claims before the season? Should everyone else be on the chopping block then because of that? Maybe we should start calling them all special names Steve YzerTrash, David DumPoile, Ray TraShero, Ken HollandBin, Peter TrashArelli...

 

 

Like I've said, it's all about your expectations. Given the core he inherited (and partially dismantled by trading Subban in a lateral move) and the rhetoric about his vaunted five year plan--which indeed he didn't stray from when the team needed one or two pieces to contend--I expect the team to be in contention for the Cup by now, or at least knocking on the door. Instead, in the rearview mirror we have a first round exit, the moral victory of ending the year atop the worst division in hockey, and like Bergevin said himself we "need help everywhere."

 

The same problems persist: a bad powerplay, a prospect pool that includes zero blue chippers, and a center core that is closer to an expansion team than a Cup winner. Perhaps the biggest smack upside the head is the nepotism. Sylvain Lefevbre has made the playoffs once and the team allows him to use the Rocket as a quasi-stopgap job. Trevor Timmons hasn't been a big deal since the Bush administration. Patrice ####ing Briesbois had a job at one point. There's no appreciable player development, and the guy in charge of player development is promoted. And you think the team is on the right track??? Face reality! 

 

But it's not on me for judge other fans. For many, including you, Saturday night wins vs Boston/Toronto/Ottawa, a dominant Carey Price, and a sparkling Francophone star like Drouin are more than enough. 

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1 hour ago, DON said:

So according to this article you've provided, we traded a tier 1 player for a tier 4 player.  Are you seeing the light yet?

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

So according to this article you've provided, we traded a tier 1 player for a tier 4 player.  Are you seeing the light yet?

 

:lol: That's because this "Game Score" index doesn't factor in LEADERSHIP - you know, the kind of incredible, Churchillian Leadership that leads a team to marginally worse results than before said Leadership was acquired :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

Like I've said, it's all about your expectations. Given the core he inherited (and partially dismantled by trading Subban in a lateral move) and the rhetoric about his vaunted five year plan--which indeed he didn't stray from when the team needed one or two pieces to contend--I expect the team to be in contention for the Cup by now, or at least knocking on the door. Instead, in the rearview mirror we have a first round exit, the moral victory of ending the year atop the worst division in hockey, and like Bergevin said himself we "need help everywhere."

 

The same problems persist: a bad powerplay, a prospect pool that includes zero blue chippers, and a center core that is closer to an expansion team than a Cup winner. Perhaps the biggest smack upside the head is the nepotism. Sylvain Lefevbre has made the playoffs once and the team allows him to use the Rocket as a quasi-stopgap job. Trevor Timmons hasn't been a big deal since the Bush administration. Patrice ####ing Briesbois had a job at one point. There's no appreciable player development, and the guy in charge of player development is promoted. And you think the team is on the right track??? Face reality! 

 

But it's not on me for judge other fans. For many, including you, Saturday night wins vs Boston/Toronto/Ottawa, a dominant Carey Price, and a sparkling Francophone star like Drouin are more than enough. 

 

You have completely side stepped my entire point.

 

Should He or Should he not claim this team should win a cup before the season, when they are not even contenders in anyone's eyes? If you answer that with logic and reason, you will quickly see you were just looking for an unfounded reason to attack him for what he is saying. Quickly throwing you into the category I already pegged you and many others in, Because Bergevin traded Subban, he will always speak in "Fart" to you, not anything he does will be good and everything including breathing will be a terrible idea with no vision.

 

You actually named off some good points against him, he has sat back too long and allowed this player development staff to accomplish nothing, Patrice Brisebois likely should never have had an NHL job. However to expect a team who has consistently picked 18th or higher in the past 10 years to have bluechips is highly unrealistic, the only teams who have that to show for are generally teams who continue to miss the playoffs, and if their long term and continuing lack of success is any indication, having a ton of blue chips is hardly a guaranteed method to winning championships. Every Blue chip we have picked up over the years made the team fairly quickly, from Price to Galchenyuk, you expect us to pick a blue chip every year or something? even when we are picking late in the 1st round? Find me a team who has done that in the last 10 years, find me a team picking in the back half of the 1st round who keeps plugging in blue chip after blue chip and has had more success than us. This is exactly what I am talking about, stop putting ridiculous claims of what we should have or be doing without first seeing if it isn't a norm around the league. with an exception here and there. Otherwise you are just asking this team to do what barely anyone other team is doing, and that is the very meaning behind unreasonable and lofty expectations.

 

My expectations are just as high as anyone who is a through and through fan of this team, though they are also realistic expectations. I want to see us win championships, I also like to use logic and reason to determine it is Rare that any GM builds a winner in 5 years, no one has an easy time building championships. Many GMs can't even replicate a winning formula they had while on a different team ever again in their careers. Yet because this is Montreal and we are all so impatient we expect championships because, well, we just want them? Everyone wants them, they are extremely difficult to get, and if this team can remain competitive while it figures out a way to do it, then i'm alright with that. Many teams embarrass themselves for years and years and still have just as many cup finals as we do in the past 15 years. Some of the very best GMs in this league have spent nearly a decade or more trying to win a championship. Heck the GM of the year, David Poile, spent nearly 20 years trying to make Nashville a legitimate Contender, and this year, they were still not considered one going into the playoffs, they reached their first cup final during his long reign. If he were GM in Montreal, we would have been calling for his head for the past 11 years with results like that, successful teams who make the playoffs but aren't considered contenders are not things to take for granted. They can turn a corner at any moment, get hot at the right time. They are also not painful to watch for most of the season, and their place in the standings make it so you don't have to put a paper bag over your head when you go into work.

 

Those are things I can appreciate, if you cannot, then it is your right to kick and stomp your feet each and every day we aren't considered a contender, just don't expect me to agree with it. I understand that being competitive, is a step you must take before becoming a contender, sometimes you remain their for longer than you would like, but it still does not mean you won't ever achieve the next step. Forgive me if I am not close to throwing in the towel on this teams chance to turn a corner in the coming years.

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Not my point at all. The comment I made is that Bergevin has said on multiple occasions "the goal is to make the playoffs." I can link two examples, one in 2014 and 2017, if needed. I didn't argue that he should say the goal is to win the Stanley Cup. My point was that we can only take him at face value.

 

I view Bergevin's move through the prism of failure because he's a failed GM. I don't think he has a job for more than three years without the core he inherited, and I put him in the same class of Canadian Old Boys that Suck at GMing. The other members are Dave Nonis, Craig McTavish, Cheveldisaster, and Jim Benning.

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47 minutes ago, Link67 said:

 

 However to expect a team who has consistently picked 18th or higher in the past 10 years to have bluechips is highly unrealistic, the only teams who have that to show for are generally teams who continue to miss the playoffs,

 

Nashville has bluechips. Their drafting position has been similar to ours.

 

So tired of endless excuses for a management group that is mediocrity personified.

 

And a GM who decimates the development pipeline does not DESERVE to decade-plus of general managing that you seem to feel is required (of course Serge Savard won a Cup and went to another Final within five years of taking over, but whatever, apparently five-year plans when you inherit a strong bunch of core pieces are now impossible).

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38 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

:lol: That's because this "Game Score" index doesn't factor in LEADERSHIP - you know, the kind of incredible, Churchillian Leadership that leads a team to marginally worse results than before said Leadership was acquired :rolleyes:

 

Of course, because Weber came here an had a horrible season, it is obvious any negative situation this team suffered last season can be directly related to the Subban for Weber swap. His leadership was useless, his reliability was unnoticeable, his PP goals and presence did not make our PP any better than the previous year. Heck we had exactly 0 locker room incidents or rumored locker room incidents between players, pure luck, nothing to do with Weber being there, or someone else not being there :rolleyes:

 

In fact his 5th runner up spot for the Norris trophy this season should not put him in Tier 1 for year-end award candidates. Unlike his 7th runner up and 8th runner up fellow defenseman, Mark Giordano and Dougie Hamilton who were ranked as Tier 1. There is nothing wrong with this ranking system at all, that is just a minor observational error on their part which has no bearing because, well ultimately Weber isn't very good.

 

Sarcasm aside, take a looks at the Tier rankings for the Dmen in that article, and if at first glance you don't notice some SERIOUS flaws with that system then its best to just close the browser and switch sports.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Nashville has bluechips. Their drafting position has been similar to ours.

 

So tired of endless excuses for a management group that is mediocrity personified.

 

And a GM who decimates the development pipeline does not DESERVE to decade-plus of general managing that you seem to feel is required (of course Serge Savard won a Cup and went to another Final within five years of taking over, but whatever, apparently five-year plans when you inherit a strong bunch of core pieces are now impossible).

 

1 team out of all the competitive teams drafting in the back half of round 1, is that what you call a norm? I'm not making excuses, i'm merely shedding light on the fact you are making up scenario's where Bergevin is so much worse than his Peers at everything he does.  And to argue that, you come to me with one example, or should I say exception. 

 

Shame, our fanbase would have wanted Poile fired years ago for his mediocrity stricken Predators, we would have missed out on all they have become had we fired him 10 years ago, as many of you fickle and impatient fans would have wanted.

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1 hour ago, Link67 said:

 

1 team out of all the competitive teams drafting in the back half of round 1, is that what you call a norm? I'm not making excuses, i'm merely shedding light on the fact you are making up scenario's where Bergevin is so much worse than his Peers at everything he does.  And to argue that, you come to me with one example, or should I say exception. 

 

Shame, our fanbase would have wanted Poile fired years ago for his mediocrity stricken Predators, we would have missed out on all they have become had we fired him 10 years ago, as many of you fickle and impatient fans would have wanted.

 

The point of the Nashville example is that it shows that you can build a contender from a draft position similar to the Habs'. For years, I've said - and so has anyone else who thinks about it - that the key to pulling this off is top-notch drafting and player development. Nashville was able to do that. We weren't. You're quite right that it is hard to do; achieving it requires real excellence, because your organization has to be better than others at this. Nashville is the 'exception' because they've gotten exceptional results. Aww, poor baby Bergevin, can't be expected to be exceptional at his job, now can he? :cry_smile:

 

I just don't see it as acceptable to say, 'well, MB can't be expected to be the class of the league in the crucial area that will determine whether the Habs become contenders.' If he can't be the class of the league ('exceptional!') in this respect, then he should be out on his expensively-suited arse. (In fact, Bergevin is far below average in player development, but why quibble about that). The management of the Pollock and Selke eras was exceptional; that's why it won so many Cups. To hear fans arguing that we can't now expect our organization to be exceptional is a real sign of how far the Habs's crest has fallen.

 

As for the Weber thing, everyone keeps going in circles on it, including me, so I'll just quickly summarize: the team with Weber and Price (2017) did marginally worse than the team with Subban and Price (2015) while manifesting the same basic weaknesses (including lack of scoring and being 'fragile' according to the GM). The supposedly all-important variable of Weber's Dear Leadership, in other words, achieved exactly diddly-squat in terms of results.

 

 

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3 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

So according to this article you've provided, we traded a tier 1 player for a tier 4 player.  Are you seeing the light yet?

 

I hesitate to post this lest this turn into version 24638 of Subban vs Weber but that is one single person's metric (and for what it's worth, a very, very arrogant stat guy).  I'll give you another for comparison - point shares, a stat that has been around for quite a while now.

 

Weber: 10.1

Subban: 6.1

 

That stat says Weber was a lot more impactful than Subban this past season (and has been in the past for the most part as well) so shouldn't he be in a higher tier in those rankings?  The moral of the story is you can cherry pick some of these newer metrics to fit the narrative to side with your opinion on the trade, be it for or against (note that 'your' is a general statement here, I'm not referring to you specifically). 

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1 minute ago, dlbalr said:

 

I hesitate to post this lest this turn into version 24638 of Subban vs Weber but that is one single person's metric (and for what it's worth, a very, very arrogant stat guy).  I'll give you another for comparison - point shares, a stat that has been around for quite a while now.

 

Weber: 10.1

Subban: 6.1

 

That stat says Weber was a lot more impactful than Subban this past season (and has been in the past for the most part as well) so shouldn't he be in a higher tier in those rankings?  The moral of the story is you can cherry pick some of these newer metrics to fit the narrative to side with your opinion on the trade, be it for or against (note that 'your' is a general statement here, I'm not referring to you specifically). 

 

Got to be something wrong with a statistical model that puts the Winnipeg Jets ahead of the Penguins...or makes creates a model from an intangible.

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16 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The point of the Nashville example is that it shows that you can build a contender from a draft position similar to the Habs'. For years, I've said - and so has anyone else who thinks about it - that the key to pulling this off is top-notch drafting and player development. Nashville was able to do that. We weren't. You're quite right that it is hard to do; achieving it requires real excellence, because your organization has to be better than others at this. Nashville is the 'exception' because they've gotten exceptional results. Aww, poor baby Bergevin, can't be expected to be exceptional at his job, now can he? :cry_smile:

 

I just don't see it as acceptable to say, 'well, MB can't be expected to be the class of the league in the crucial area that will determine whether the Habs become contenders.' If he can't be the class of the league ('exceptional!') in this respect, then he should be out on his expensively-suited arse. (In fact, Bergevin is far below average in player development, but why quibble about that). The management of the Pollock and Selke eras was exceptional; that's why it won so many Cups. To hear fans arguing that we can't now expect our organization to be exceptional is a real sign of how far the Habs's crest has fallen.

 

As for the Weber thing, everyone keeps going in circles on it, including me, so I'll just quickly summarize: the team with Weber and Price (2017) did marginally worse than the team with Subban and Price (2015) while manifesting the same basic weaknesses (including lack of scoring and being 'fragile' according to the GM). The supposedly all-important variable of Weber's Dear Leadership, in other words, achieved exactly diddly-squat in terms of results.

 

 

 

How funny is it though, Nashville weren't even considered contenders all year until Round 2. 

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1 hour ago, Link67 said:

 

1 team out of all the competitive teams drafting in the back half of round 1, is that what you call a norm? I'm not making excuses, i'm merely shedding light on the fact you are making up scenario's where Bergevin is so much worse than his Peers at everything he does.  And to argue that, you come to me with one example, or should I say exception. 

 

Shame, our fanbase would have wanted Poile fired years ago for his mediocrity stricken Predators, we would have missed out on all they have become had we fired him 10 years ago, as many of you fickle and impatient fans would have wanted.

Or how about TBL (done very well on the years they didn't pick stamkos, hedman, drouin), or the ducks, or Washington??? 

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18 minutes ago, Link67 said:

 

How funny is it though, Nashville weren't even considered contenders all year until Round 2. 

Actually they were - at the start of the year they were considered contenders.  The narrative during the year was that they were a disappointment.

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8 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Actually they were - at the start of the year they were considered contenders.  The narrative during the year was that they were a disappointment.

 

Injury decimated. And in the Finals, even with their #1 C out, they still went seven games.

 

Everyone forgets that the 2017 Habs were massively healthy going into the playoffs. Still couldn't do a damned thing, despite all that Leadership

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9 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Or how about TBL (done very well on the years they didn't pick stamkos, hedman, drouin), or the ducks, or Washington??? 

 

-The only player currently on TB making any kind of meaningful impact that was drafted since 2013 is Brayden Point.

- Only ones making meaningful contributions in Anaheim since the 2013 Draft are Theodore and Montour.

- Only one in Washington making a meaningful impact since the 2013 Draft is Andre Burakovsky.

 

Hardly the Home run picks you seem to be suggesting in the last 4 years of drafting.

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29 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Actually they were - at the start of the year they were considered contenders.  The narrative during the year was that they were a disappointment.

 

Yeah, a few people had them in the Stanley Cup Finals before the year started. I think Pierre Lebrun, for one example.

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EA sports did a simulation before the season that had Nashville winning the cup.....against Montreal

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2 hours ago, Link67 said:

 

-The only player currently on TB making any kind of meaningful impact that was drafted since 2013 is Brayden Point.

- Only ones making meaningful contributions in Anaheim since the 2013 Draft are Theodore and Montour.

- Only one in Washington making a meaningful impact since the 2013 Draft is Andre Burakovsky.

 

Hardly the Home run picks you seem to be suggesting in the last 4 years of drafting

 

You also need to consider the top prospects not in the NHL.  Of the top 20, Anaheim had Montour, Larsson and Theodore (who they traded - and was a late pick we could have taken), Washington's got Seiganthaller and Vrana.  Montreal had one - Sergechev- who we traded away.

 

if you go a bit further back, they also drafted a lot more impact players outside the top 10.  We've got galchenyuk and Gallagher - and galchenyuk was a top 3 pick.

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The fact still remains Nashville swam in a pool of above average competitiveness for years before turning the corner, several re-tools later and no tanking in sight, they emerge with a legitimate chance to take home the cup. I still firmly believe this fanbase would have been calling for Poile's head years ago, no chance in hell we have the patience to let him work through it like he did in Nashville here in Montreal. Bergevin can't even swim 5 years in above average competitiveness never mind 15 years. I can appreciate that even a good GM like Poile can't build a winner inside a few years, it is incredibly difficult. A sentiment that seems lacking here, because here we don't bother putting things in perspective like that, we just expect lavish results, and crucify everyone for not achieving them, even when some of the best GMs in this league struggle for years to build a championship team.

 

David Poile is one of a list that includes Bob Murray, Doug Wilson, Doug Armstrong, Chuck Fletcher, Steve Yzerman, all good GMs we would be happy to have, all been trying to build a championship team for longer than Bergevin, with disappointments along the way to boot. You think Fletcher is happy about his even more embarrassing 1st round elimination? should he be fired for his incompetence for building a playoff regular who can't make it deep in the playoffs or should he be allowed to continue his work? Almost Identical scenario with Doug Armstrong in St.Louis, perhaps he should be fired too. You think Yzerman is happy about missing the playoffs and watching his team fail to string together enough wins in the absence of Stamkos? Should he be fired for building a team who can't succeed without its best player or should he be allowed to continue his work? Funny how the standards here work, would we really be calling for any of those GMs heads here like we are Bergevin? Despite the results, those GMs have put together good teams capable of turning elite with the right choice of moves, and for that they deserve the chance to make their teams ascend to the next level. Bergevin deserves the same, and it is going to take a whole lot more than Trading away Subban, winning a division, and a disappointing 1st round exit to the best team we could have faced while finishing 4th, to change my mind.

 

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Nashville was a contender. Obviously.

 

Montreal was not. Obviously.

 

The playoffs have a wonderful way of separating the pretenders from the contenders and clarifying who is and isn't the real deal.

 

Nashville built that with Habs'-like draft position. Which shows it can be done. But not by MB. Too 'tough' for him.

 

(Incidentally, I'm surprised no one mentions the Rags, another team that's consistently done better than us despite a similar drafting position history).

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1 minute ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Nashville was a contender. Obviously.

 

Montreal was not. Obviously.

 

The playoffs have a wonderful way of separating the pretenders from the contenders and clarifying who is and isn't the real deal.

 

Nashville built that with Habs'-like draft position. Which shows it can be done. But not by MB. Too 'tough' for him.

 

(Incidentally, I'm surprised no one mentions the Rags, another team that's consistently done better than us despite a similar drafting position history).

 

we can't mention the Rangers, it would show that we lost to a very formidable opponent in a close hard fought series in the 1st round, thus dissolving the rhetoric some of you have been preaching about how terrible we are for being eliminated in the 1st round. 

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