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5 years from now this team will need a rebuild.. Will fans and media allow it done the right way??

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hab29RETIRED    168
4 minutes ago, Link67 said:

The fact still remains Nashville swam in a pool of above average competitiveness for years before turning the corner, several re-tools later and no tanking in sight, they emerge with a legitimate chance to take home the cup. I still firmly believe this fanbase would have been calling for Poile's head years ago, no chance in hell we have the patience to let him work through it like he did in Nashville here in Montreal. Bergevin can't even swim 5 years in above average competitiveness never mind 15 years. I can appreciate that even a good GM like Poile can't build a winner inside a few years, it is incredibly difficult. A sentiment that seems lacking here, because here we don't bother putting things in perspective like that, we just expect lavish results, and crucify everyone for not achieving them, even when some of the best GMs in this league struggle for years to build a championship team.

 

David Poile is one of a list that includes Bob Murray, Doug Wilson, Doug Armstrong, Chuck Fletcher, Steve Yzerman, all good GMs we would be happy to have, all been trying to build a championship team for longer than Bergevin, with disappointments along the way to boot. You think Fletcher is happy about his even more embarrassing 1st round elimination? should he be fired for his incompetence for building a playoff regular who can't make it deep in the playoffs or should he be allowed to continue his work? Almost Identical scenario with Doug Armstrong in St.Louis, perhaps he should be fired too. You think Yzerman is happy about missing the playoffs and watching his team fail to string together enough wins in the absence of Stamkos? Should he be fired for building a team who can't succeed without its best player or should he be allowed to continue his work? Funny how the standards here work, would we really be calling for any of those GMs heads here like we are Bergevin? Despite the results, those GMs have put together good teams capable of turning elite with the right choice of moves, and for that they deserve the chance to make their teams ascend to the next level. Bergevin deserves the same, and it is going to take a whole lot more than Trading away Subban, winning a division, and a disappointing 1st round exit to the best team we could have faced while finishing 4th, to change my mind.

 

Until the last 3 or 4 years, Poile has had his hands tied by financial constraints because of being in markets that had no money.  Hell, even when he was with the Caps he was forced to let Scott Stevens go, because they couldn't afford him.  Once he could actually spend money, the team became competitive.   Murray also operates under financial constraints - something MB has never had to worry about.

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hab29RETIRED    168
6 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Nashville was a contender. Obviously.

 

Montreal was not. Obviously.

 

The playoffs have a wonderful way of separating the pretenders from the contenders and clarifying who is and isn't the real deal.

 

Nashville built that with Habs'-like draft position. Which shows it can be done. But not by MB. Too 'tough' for him.

 

(Incidentally, I'm surprised no one mentions the Rags, another team that's consistently done better than us despite a similar drafting position history).

Yep.  Not to mention they won in the same season. As we missed they playoffs when their franchise goalie went down.

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Link67    108
1 minute ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Until the last 3 or 4 years, Poile has had his hands tied by financial constraints because of being in markets that had no money.  Hell, even when he was with the Caps he was forced to let Scott Stevens go, because they couldn't afford him.  Once he could actually spend money, the team became competitive.   Murray also operates under financial constraints - something MB has never had to worry about.

 

Oh boy are we reaching now, you think a few million bucks is the difference between competitive and contender? Jesus..

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10 minutes ago, Link67 said:

Bergevin can't even swim 5 years in above average competitiveness never mind 15 years. 

 

This is the Montreal Canadiens. Not an expansion team from Tennessee. 

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hab29RETIRED    168
4 minutes ago, Link67 said:

 

we can't mention the Rangers, it would show that we lost to a very formidable opponent in a close hard fought series in the 1st round, thus dissolving the rhetoric some of you have been preaching about how terrible we are for being eliminated in the 1st round. 

We lost to a team with an aging goaltender who stoned our crappy offence and was exposed against the senators.  That team traded away their #1 centre this year and always find ways to either dump or buyout bad contracts and washed out has beens, because they weren't satisfied with how the season went.  We have a GM who is hanging on to the hope that a washout like Pleks will find his legs. 

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Link67    108
1 minute ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

This is the Montreal Canadiens. Not an expansion team from Tennessee. 

 

Lol it is equally difficult for the Montreal Canadiens, San Jose Sharks, Washington Capitals or Nashville Predators to win a championship, because they are all NHL TEAMS, we are not in some special other worldly category.

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hab29RETIRED    168
6 minutes ago, Link67 said:

 

Lol it is equally difficult for the Montreal Canadiens, San Jose Sharks, Washington Capitals or Nashville Predators to win a championship, because they are all NHL TEAMS, we are not in some special other worldly category.

What has only one of those  teams failed to do in the last 20 years???  Get to the friggin finals!!

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Link67    108
4 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

We lost to a team with an aging goaltender who stoned our crappy offence and was exposed against the senators.  That team traded away their #1 centre this year and always find ways to either dump or buyout bad contracts and washed out has beens, because they weren't satisfied with how the season went.  We have a GM who is hanging on to the hope that a washout like Pleks will find his legs. 

 

Or...

 

We ran into a veteran goalie who got very hot, coupled with our lacking finish and declining confidence in our ability to finish as the series progressed, forcing us to bow out in the first round because we couldn't bury a few timely goals. Said veteran goalie then looked like a shell of himself from the first round, as was noted by many articles in NY media, and made the Ottawa offence look more potent than it was. Had this veteran goalie played in our series the way he played in the Ottawa series, we likely would have put home an extra few goals on him which would have likely made the difference. Because lets not forget, our Goalie was actually boasting some very solid .937 SV% type of numbers during that series, a couple goals would have been enough to see us through.

 

I'd also love to see the article where Bergevin proclaims that this coming season, this team makes it or breaks it on the shoulders of one Tomas Plekanec and his ability to bounce back. Wait! let me guess, just more presumptuous rhetoric...

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Link67    108
Just now, hab29RETIRED said:

What has only one of those  teams failed to do in the last 20 years???  Get to the friggin finals!!

 

Pretty sure I specifically mentioned "Winning Championships" though..

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hab29RETIRED    168
17 minutes ago, Link67 said:

 

Oh boy are we reaching now, you think a few million bucks is the difference between competitive and contender? Jesus..

I guess you don't realize how a cap system works. Or the fact that even a few million dollars can make the difference- let alone that as recent as 3 years ago Nashville had over $9m in cap space and were generally $4m to $9m under, where we have been mostly spending to the max on garbage

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19 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

This is the Montreal Canadiens. Not an expansion team from Tennessee. 

 

Haha, yep. In Nashville, they're just excited to get away from George Strait for a night.*

 

 

(*We could do with some George Strait in South Florida, along with sellout and team that can ice 80% of an NHL roster).

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5 hours ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

Haha, yep. In Nashville, they're just excited to get away from George Strait for a night.

Nashville has done a fantastic job building a hockey crazy market. 

 

(This next is more for Link)

 

But the truth is that the expansion GMs from the late 90s all got nearly a decade to be GM before they lost their jobs, regardless of how they were doing. Doug MacLean was the first Columbus GM in 1998 and despite everyone agreeing he was huge mistake and bad for the Blue Jackets, he was GM until 2007.

 

So why did Poile get longer? Basically he weathered major storms while always developing the team. Poile attracted major free agents and started making the playoffs. The team got purchased by a criminal, and then got purchased by a guy who only wanted to move the club to Hamilton/Kitchener-Waterloo. Then Ryan Suter walked and Shea Weber signed an offer sheet designed to be unmatchable in the same summer. Nashville rebounded and won their first playoff series, but then missed the playoffs back to back. Trotz took the fall and everyone knew if they didn't improve under Laviolette, Poile would be next. Poile started to change the image from Smashville to what they are today, which is less about hitting hard and more about playing smart. They made the playoffs again, the next season won a series again, and 16-17 went to the Cup final. In the meantime Poile acquired Neal, Forsberg, Johansen, and Subban. 

 

So yeah, Poile got a long time. But expansion GMs tend to, and the Predators were for a couple years more worried about their owner, and the past three years have been all because Poile's job had been on the line. None of this has been the situation for Bergevin. Bergevin didn't take an expansion team. He took a team that bottomed out the year prior but it's not like they were a terrible team. In the two years prior to 11-12, they went to the ECF and were one goal from beating the eventual Cup champion. Since then, Bergevin's job hasn't been at risk. Even after 15-16. It's a completely different situation.

 

You don't get to be the GM of the Montreal Canadiens and expect the same rope as a guy who had to build a team for a brand new audience. Unless your job is to rebuild, you take the Canadiens to bring them back to the Cup. And if Bergevin isn't doing enough to do that, he shouldn't be GM. 

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Last I checked the image of Smashville is alive and kicking but here I am thinking it's because everyone gets "smashed" in Nashville and not from hitting hard...

seems you have all the excuses for everyone but MB... the fact remains poile has had 20 years... and his only real success as a GM came with solid goaltending from Riine and a defensive backbone of Suter and weber and then weber Josi Ekholm and now Josi ekholm subban  Ellis. The move of jones for Johansen was huge as they were a team struggling to score as well. Also the emergence of the sophomore arrvidson as well as forsberg has really contributed. In the end though, if riine plays like he did the first 25 games rather then his last... Nashville doesn't stand a chance!

 

speaking of rhetoric... MB has said multiple multiple times he would not mortgage the future for short term gain and he hasn't thus far. This is why you see low risk trades with outside chances of success in the interm of guys at the tail end of their careers. The biggest problem is the habs haven't made any really good on any picks in the last little while. This I believe is the true reason of the teams stalling progression to the next level. Lehkonan could very well be the first impact draft pick since Gallagher and Galchenyuk!

 

Adding Drouin helps although losing sergachev hurts... (we will just have to hope juulsen, mete and 1 or 2 of the 5 defence drafted this year really pan out to help with that loss. Meantime we gain one of the most dynamic young forwards on hockey.

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49 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

seems you have all the excuses for everyone but MB... the fact remains poile has had 20 years... and his only real success as a GM came with solid goaltending from Riine and a defensive backbone of Suter and weber and then weber Josi Ekholm and now Josi ekholm subban  Ellis.

 

He just won GM of the Year and his club was in the Cup final. And it wasn't a team he mostly inherited, unless you want to credit the current Habs on the acquisitions of Jeff Petry and... Torrey Mitchell?

 

Honestly a big part of Poile not being fired right now was going with Laviolette. He pushed the team to a modern style. Bergevin had to be forced by his franchise player to fire Therrien. Yeah sorry if I'm not letting Bergevin off the hook. 

 

If Bergevin learned his lesson and the Julien Habs of 17-18 will be offensive minded and actually play the way the NHL needs you to in the playoffs, I'll be far more positive to him. But then he signed Alzner to a five year deal, played hard ball with Radulov, and has now played hard ball with Markov. He has also kept Lefebvre in charge of the clubs prospects. It's still a team trying to win 2-1, and I'm done defending that. 

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1 hour ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

Last I checked the image of Smashville is alive and kicking but here I am thinking it's because everyone gets "smashed" in Nashville and not from hitting hard...

seems you have all the excuses for everyone but MB... the fact remains poile has had 20 years... and his only real success as a GM came with solid goaltending from Riine and a defensive backbone of Suter and weber and then weber Josi Ekholm and now Josi ekholm subban  Ellis. The move of jones for Johansen was huge as they were a team struggling to score as well. Also the emergence of the sophomore arrvidson as well as forsberg has really contributed. In the end though, if riine plays like he did the first 25 games rather then his last... Nashville doesn't stand a chance!

 

speaking of rhetoric... MB has said multiple multiple times he would not mortgage the future for short term gain and he hasn't thus far. This is why you see low risk trades with outside chances of success in the interm of guys at the tail end of their careers. The biggest problem is the habs haven't made any really good on any picks in the last little while. This I believe is the true reason of the teams stalling progression to the next level. Lehkonan could very well be the first impact draft pick since Gallagher and Galchenyuk!

 

Adding Drouin helps although losing sergachev hurts... (we will just have to hope juulsen, mete and 1 or 2 of the 5 defence drafted this year really pan out to help with that loss. Meantime we gain one of the most dynamic young forwards on hockey.

 

Let's flip the script. What does BergeVin have to do to be fired? 

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hab29RETIRED    168
1 minute ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

Let's flip the script. What does BergeVin have to do to be fired? 

For Molson: Trade Carey Price to bring back Ben Scrivens in the middle of a game.

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DON    26
45 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

He just won GM of the Year and his club was in the Cup final. And it wasn't a team he mostly inherited, unless you want to credit the current Habs on the acquisitions of Jeff Petry and... Torrey Mitchell?

 

Honestly a big part of Poile not being fired right now was going with Laviolette. He pushed the team to a modern style. Bergevin had to be forced by his franchise player to fire Therrien. Yeah sorry if I'm not letting Bergevin off the hook. 

 

If Bergevin learned his lesson and the Julien Habs of 17-18 will be offensive minded and actually play the way the NHL needs you to in the playoffs, I'll be far more positive to him. But then he signed Alzner to a five year deal, played hard ball with Radulov, and has now played hard ball with Markov. He has also kept Lefebvre in charge of the clubs prospects. It's still a team trying to win 2-1, and I'm done defending that. 

What lesson should Bergy have learned?

You have seen Julien coach for long time now, you really don't think he will toss out his playbook and start coaching totally different now do you?

Seems 30 teams played hard ball with Radulov and haven't heard one person compliment Dallas on the signing, 100% to the opposite.

Am getting curious what Bergy will do with cap room, especially if Markov signs elsewhere?

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habs rule    392
3 hours ago, DON said:

What lesson should Bergy have learned?

You have seen Julien coach for long time now, you really don't think he will toss out his playbook and start coaching totally different now do you?

Seems 30 teams played hard ball with Radulov and haven't heard one person compliment Dallas on the signing, 100% to the opposite.

Am getting curious what Bergy will do with cap room, especially if Markov signs elsewhere?

sign some 4th liners a a couple of 35+ defencemen?

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xXx..CK..xXx    146

I'll just say this....

 

Since Bergevin became GM of the Habs, he's made the most trades of any manager in the league. As a result, I think it's fair to say he deserves to be scrutinized, whether positively or negatively.

 

I'm happy being a Habs fan and couldn't care less about the Predators but with Bergevin being as active as he's been, I can't see the argument that he's done some amazing job with his overall body of work. Many of his best signings are no longer here and so while they were good in the short term, they're no longer here. Drouin is the first one he's locked up and we'll see how it goes. 

 

I think at the same time, his bad moves are also looked at through a microscope which isn't fair. But the truth is he's clearly made some mistake throughout his tenure in my opinion. Often many of us differentiate between which of those moves should be deemed the mistakes, but they're out there. As a result, I don't see why he should be heavily defended by anyone, outside of one getting tired of hearing constant negativity and trying to place a positive spin on things.

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6 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I'll just say this....

 

Since Bergevin became GM of the Habs, he's made the most trades of any manager in the league. As a result, I think it's fair to say he deserves to be scrutinized, whether positively or negatively.

 

I'm happy being a Habs fan and couldn't care less about the Predators but with Bergevin being as active as he's been, I can't see the argument that he's done some amazing job with his overall body of work. Many of his best signings are no longer here and so while they were good in the short term, they're no longer here. Drouin is the first one he's locked up and we'll see how it goes. 

 

I think at the same time, his bad moves are also looked at through a microscope which isn't fair. But the truth is he's clearly made some mistake throughout his tenure in my opinion. Often many of us differentiate between which of those moves should be deemed the mistakes, but they're out there. As a result, I don't see why he should be heavily defended by anyone, outside of one getting tired of hearing constant negativity and trying to place a positive spin on things.

 

Well, arguing over the merits and demerits of various specific moves is fun. But I don't think it's the right way to frame the issue of his overall performance. For that, we need to 'zoom out' and observe overall patterns. When we do, we see the following:

 

1. A good team that, when it has Price, has strong regular seasons and is a reliable playoff club.

2. A team that has not been able to improve on the above since 2014. So, four years of treading water, never getting any better.

3. An organization that has zero blue-chip prospects and a dismal track record of drafting and development.

 

MB's defenders focus on (1), take the view that once you make the playoffs 'anything can happen,' and that, therefore, (2) is good enough. As for (3), well, they just cross their fingers that somehow things will get better.

 

MB's critics focus on (2) and (3). The point of (2) is that MB inherited a strong hand and has not been able to make it stronger. His team is not a true, top-tier contender and none of his many moves have changed that. The point of (3) is that this franchise is heading for disaster in the medium term. This makes it harder to be sanguine about (2) because there is no 'next wave' to be optimistic about.

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DON    26
1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Drouin is the first one he's locked up and we'll see how it goes. 

Pacioretty, Price, Shaw, Petry, Gallagher, Subban, Alzner dont count?

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illWill    423

-Price didn't win the Vezina till Stephane Waite was hired by Bergevin

 

-Subban won the Norris under Bergevin

 

-Galchenyuk was selected  by Bergevin and made the NHL his first eligible year

 

-Gallagher was a Calder trophy candidate under Bergevin

 

-Pacioretty was sniping when Bergevin got hired and he still is

 

-Markov is Markov

 

So that is the core that he inherited. He gets no credit for the success of those players and all of the blame for others that didn't succeed under his watch. It's as if those players were destined to be good NHLers and he was just along for the ride. And anyone else would have been stars if not for how incompetent he is

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Link67    108
7 hours ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

Let's flip the script. What does BergeVin have to do to be fired? 

 

2012-13: 1st in their Division(63 pts) || Goals For 3rd of 30 || Goals Against 13th of 30 || Playoffs: 1st Round

 

2013-14: 3rd in the Division(100 pts) || Goals For 21st of 30 || Goals Against 6th of 30 || Playoffs: Conference Final

 

2014-15: 1st in the Division(110 pts) || Goals for 18th of 30 || Goals Against 1st of 30 || Playoffs: 2nd Round

 

2015 -16: 6th in the Divison(82 pts) || Goals for 16th of 30 || Goals Against 21st of 30 || Playoffs: None

 

2016-17: 1st in the Division(103 pts) || Goals For 15th of 30 || Goals Against 3rd of 30 || Playoffs: 1st Round

 

 

Does that look like a 5 year resume worthy of a firing to you? If you were in the GM chair, and this was your results of the past 5 years, would you be ok with being fired? or would you find it unfair to not be given a chance to continue to build a successful team that could break into contendership status in the near future.

 

So to answer your question, in my opinion, he would need to do much worse than winning 3 division titles, three 100 point seasons, and a conference final on his resume. And i'd Challenge anyone to find me a GM who has recently been fired with similar results in his seasons leading up to his Firing. You guys just sound like a bunch of squabbling Seagulls at times, calling for someone's head just for the sake of change without any real merit, pitch forks in the air, predicting doomsday fall offs in the coming days. And you keepseeing the same whining and grumbling behind the reasoning "Oh but he traded away my favorite player! Get rid of him he'll never get another damn thing right!", "Why can't he just build a winner in a few years like everyone else does, GOD!", "We have been stuck at pretty good team status for a few years why can't we take the next step, it seems so easy for every other team in the league!". Is it starting to sound as ridiculous to you guys as it does to me?

 

His resume is far from perfect, it has its mistakes, but it certainly boasts enough positive results to allow him to continue trying build what he is building, and until those results start turning ugly, I'm not lighting the guy on fire. That doesn't make me Bergevin fan boy, it simply means, when I look at that resume at first glance, the thought of this GM should be fired does not cross my mind, and it shouldn't to anyone looking at it through reasonable eyes. He isn't all doom and gloom, or about as sharp as a bowling ball, he is also not flawless by any means. But somewhere in the middle of all that nonsense, lies his true abilities, his true evaluation, and it doesn't scream Fire Him to me.

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Link67    108
47 minutes ago, illWill said:

-Price didn't win the Vezina till Stephane Waite was hired by Bergevin

 

-Subban won the Norris under Bergevin

 

-Galchenyuk was selected  by Bergevin and made the NHL his first eligible year

 

-Gallagher was a Calder trophy candidate under Bergevin

 

-Pacioretty was sniping when Bergevin got hired and he still is

 

-Markov is Markov

 

So that is the core that he inherited. He gets no credit for the success of those players and all of the blame for others that didn't succeed under his watch. It's as if those players were destined to be good NHLers and he was just along for the ride. And anyone else would have been stars if not for how incompetent he is

 

Waite is undoubtedly an overlooked Home Run by Bergevin Haters, it is easily his best Hire, and arguably the best singular move that contributed the most success he has made.

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hab29RETIRED    168
10 minutes ago, Link67 said:

 

2012-13: 1st in their Division(63 pts) || Goals For 3rd of 30 || Goals Against 13th of 30 || Playoffs: 1st Round

 

2013-14: 3rd in the Division(100 pts) || Goals For 21st of 30 || Goals Against 6th of 30 || Playoffs: Conference Final

 

2014-15: 1st in the Division(110 pts) || Goals for 18th of 30 || Goals Against 1st of 30 || Playoffs: 2nd Round

 

2015 -16: 6th in the Divison(82 pts) || Goals for 16th of 30 || Goals Against 21st of 30 || Playoffs: None

 

2016-17: 1st in the Division(103 pts) || Goals For 15th of 30 || Goals Against 3rd of 30 || Playoffs: 1st Round

 

 

Does that look like a 5 year resume worthy of a firing to you? If you were in the GM chair, and this was your results of the past 5 years, would you be ok with being fired? or would you find it unfair to not be given a chance to continue to build a successful team that could break into contendership status in the near future.

 

So to answer your question, in my opinion, he would need to do much worse than winning 3 division titles, three 100 point seasons, and a conference final on his resume. And i'd Challenge anyone to find me a GM who has recently been fired with similar results in his seasons leading up to his Firing. You guys just sound like a bunch of squabbling Seagulls at times, calling for someone's head just for the sake of change without any real merit, pitch forks in the air, predicting doomsday fall offs in the coming days. And you keepseeing the same whining and grumbling behind the reasoning "Oh but he traded away my favorite player! Get rid of him he'll never get another damn thing right!", "Why can't he just build a winner in a few years like everyone else does, GOD!", "We have been stuck at pretty good team status for a few years why can't we take the next step, it seems so easy for every other team in the league!". Is it starting to sound as ridiculous to you guys as it does to me?

 

His resume is far from perfect, it has its mistakes, but it certainly boasts enough positive results to allow him to continue trying build what he is building, and until those results start turning ugly, I'm not lighting the guy on fire. That doesn't make me Bergevin fan boy, it simply means, when I look at that resume at first glance, the thought of this GM should be fired does not cross my mind, and it shouldn't to anyone looking at it through reasonable eyes. He isn't all doom and gloom, or about as sharp as a bowling ball, he is also not flawless by any means. But somewhere in the middle of all that nonsense, lies his true abilities, his true evaluation, and it doesn't scream Fire Him to me.

Ray Shero had a more impressive team leading up to being fired with the pens.  He was there for more than 5 years, but had not regular season success than MB.  He also made the mistake of holding on to his coach too long - which contributed to his firing. He was in his role longer than 5 years, but Bottom line, he got fired because the team want getting it done in the playoffs.

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