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5 years from now this team will need a rebuild.. Will fans and media allow it done the right way??

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illWill    392

All things being equal, each team has a 3.33% chance at winning the Cup. We can say well we are the Montreal Canadiens and therefore deserve it more, but the fact is that the math doesn't change. In a salary cap world there aren't the same advantages that existed before. So 96.7% of the time each season a bunch of people on this forum are going to sharpen their pitchforks and declare everyone incompetent 

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DON    9
1 hour ago, Commandant said:


I never said he was trying to be "good enough".  Once again, you either deliberately changed my words to something you could argue against, or you misinterpreted them. 
I even highlighted that exact sentence, I didn't edit your post one bit, how did I twist it?

"This is his sixth off-season in charge, we needs to stop with trying being good enough" So yes you did say exactly that. I am not a mind reader if you meant something else? But, you also know you can suggest or propose anything and has zero consequences. Unlike a Habs GM, who has a bit more pressure and reality to deal with. How many top players actually want to even play in Quebec? Bergy said he kicked tires on many players and said some were just not interested, but does that stuff ever factor in discussions here, it is "No he is just too cheap, he let player X sign with team Y instead, what an idiot, should be fired!" "He played hard-ball with Radulov and let him walk, what an idiot, should be fired!" etc etc

 

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Link67    95
2 hours ago, Commandant said:


I never said he was trying to be "good enough".  Once again, you either deliberately changed my words to something you could argue against, or you misinterpreted them. 
 

Is Bergevin trying to build a cup winner? sure. 

 

But the big issue is that he hasn't solved this team's centre issue.  How many teams have won a cup without a quality centre?

 

You suggested he is trying to fix the centre issue, but hasn't been able to. 

What I'm saying is trying to find a centre isn't good enough after 6 years.  Thats not an excuse anymore.  

 

I'm sorry after 6 years Trying to Fix the Teams #1 Problem isn't enough.  Either get the job done, or give way to someone who might be able . 

 

After six years, I'm trying, isn't a good enough excuse for why this team has the same problem its had all this time. 

 

Now, while I agree completely that among the faults in Bergevin, the top 2 for me are The lack of getting a top Center by any means, in 5 years. And that Lefevbre still has a damn job after the countless development failures we have watched the past few years.

 

That being said, firing a GM who hasn't pooped the bed nearly bad enough to warrant it just doesn't work for me, I think he still deserves a bit more time to do what he is doing. Secondly to that, I keep hearing stuff like Firing him so someone else can come in and build a contender with what sounds like relative ease compared to Bergevin. I'm curious to see who this person is? What legitimate, experienced Front Office guy who is bilingual do we all see coming in behind Bergevin, with the magic map in his possession that will reveal the sure fire way to building a contender? If Bergevin gets Fired tomorrow, who do we Hire that has a much better chance to improve a team that isn't even bad at all, its actually pretty good, just not quite there yet. 

 

Names? 

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1 hour ago, illWill said:

All things being equal, each team has a 3.33% chance at winning the Cup. We can say well we are the Montreal Canadiens and therefore deserve it more, but the fact is that the math doesn't change. In a salary cap world there aren't the same advantages that existed before. So 96.7% of the time each season a bunch of people on this forum are going to sharpen their pitchforks and declare everyone incompetent 

 

Oh man the reasoning just gets worse by the page. "Odds are low your team will ever win before anyone makes a decision on the ice, so why be critical?"

 

24 minutes ago, Link67 said:

What legitimate, experienced Front Office guy who is bilingual

 

Habs reached out to Nill in their GM search. Bilingual is a preference not a requirement. 

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illWill    392
4 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Oh man the reasoning just gets worse by the page. "Odds are low your team will ever win before anyone makes a decision on the ice, so why be critical?"

 

 

Am I wrong?

 

Tell me how the math is wrong in a now 31 team league. What are the odds of a clear cut Stanley Cup favorite to win the Cup heading into a season? 14%? You know how math works right? 

 

They play the games for a reason, and it's the same reason why getting to the playoffs is the most important goal

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Link67    95
8 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Oh man the reasoning just gets worse by the page. "Odds are low your team will ever win before anyone makes a decision on the ice, so why be critical?"

 

 

Habs reached out to Nill in their GM search. Bilingual is a preference not a requirement. 

 

The same Nill who has had Dallas running in Circles and going up and down like they are driving on the Rockies, in and out of the playoffs? What is so special about him? What exactly puts him in any category more capable than Bergevin to build a contender? A Lateral move at best, both built good teams, who are not contenders, both learned managing from winning organizations before becoming GMs. This is hardly a guarantee for the building of anything better than what we currently see.

 

Also the Billingual thing will be necessary, there is a 1%, and i'm being generous because of the never say never factor, that this team ever Hires a non Billingual Coach or GM ever again after the last debacle. Don't even bother with any candidates that don't fit those requirements it has an insanely low chance of ever happening again. 

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6 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

As Josh Donaldson said, "This isn't the try league. This is the get it done league."

 

I don't care how hard he's tried to get a centre, the fact is that his job is to fix this team's problems and make it a contender.  This is his sixth off-season in charge, we needs to stop with trying being good enough.  Get it done, or let someone else take the reins who can get it done. 

 

1spobv.jpg

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dlbalr    645

To actually try to steer this somewhere in the vicinity of the topic question, it's disappointing that the media bit is a legitimate consideration.  It really shouldn't matter what the media thinks; their commentary shouldn't have any impact on any rebuild, be it five years from now or later (or earlier if things blow up before then).  The unfortunate thing is that Geoff Molson already was influenced in the past with the Cunneyworth fiasco.  On the flip side, he did sign off on the Subban trade and I'm sure he was well aware of the backlash that was going to be coming soon after.

 

Suppose that the team starts to nosedive within a few years and Bergevin gets let go.  Over the course of interviewing potential replacements, the overwhelming majority of them say to Molson that a rebuild is needed.  If that were to happen, I think he'd be okay with a bit of a rebuild as long as they come up with the right sales pitch to try to smooth things over (and, naturally, wait for most of the season ticket holders to renew).

 

From the standpoint of the fan base, I think most would probably be accepting of it as long as it wasn't a full-scale five-year tank job like some teams have done in the past.  Most would tolerate a year or two but after that, it might be iffy but that's something that could be suggested in a lot of markets, not just this one.  Yes, there will be the dumb ones who try to get a protest going (who remembers the Kovalev 'protest' that was a complete laughingstock?) and throw as much of a public fit as possible to get their 15 seconds of fame (15 minutes might be pushing it as all they'd get is a quick soundbite on RDS/TVA Sports) but I'd have to hope that those ones wouldn't be able to influence hockey operations.

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habs rule    392
1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

 

 

Habs reached out to Nill in their GM search. Bilingual is a preference not a requirement. 

I actually find that hard to believe. Maybe Molson wanted a golf partner cause he has no intention of hiring a non francophone. That includes Babcock.

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1 hour ago, Link67 said:

The same Nill who has had Dallas running in Circles and going up and down like they are driving on the Rockies, in and out of the playoffs?

 

Yes, that Nill. Before he went to Dallas, Molson/Savard reached out to him for an interview. He rejected it.

 

Quote

Also the Billingual thing will be necessary

 

No, it's not. It wasn't necessary in 2012. It's not necessary now.

 

Habs also reached out to Gerard Gallant for an interview after firing Therrien. He still doesn't speak French.

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Link67    95
3 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Yes, that Nill. Before he went to Dallas, Molson/Savard reached out to him for an interview. He rejected it.

 

 

No, it's not. It wasn't necessary in 2012. It's not necessary now.

 

Habs also reached out to Gerard Gallant for an interview after firing Therrien. He still doesn't speak French.

 

Reaching out, and actually hiring, knowing all the backlash from half the media and fanbase in the city, are 2 different things. We can reach out until we are blue in the face, it is part of doing your due diligence, but to actually Hire a non bilingual GM, i'd confidently bet lofty amounts against that one.

 

Also, i would like to sincerely apologize to you, I completely had a brain fart while reading that previous post of yours and misinterpreted it. You were mentioning Nill for the bilingual portion of the discussion, and not to potentially succeed Bergevin. my bad.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Link67 said:

 

Reaching out, and actually hiring, knowing all the backlash from half the media and fanbase in the city, are 2 different things. We can reach out until we are blue in the face, it is part of doing your due diligence, but to actually Hire a non bilingual GM, i'd confidently bet lofty amounts against that one.

 

Before Nill landed a GM job, people were talking about him like he was Kenny Holland 2.0, back when that meant something. He was the "next great" GM, credited for a lot of the Red Wings success in years prior. He was the best available candidate at the time. Habs did contact him, and Nill said no to an interview. It never got far enough. Also Molson never said a word about the GM not being bilingual.

 

That's the thing. We've yet to see a situation where the best available coach/GM was out there, and Montreal ignored them because they weren't bilingual. I think the Habs were just handing Therrien his extension back when Babcock was available. I don't believe for a second that they wouldn't have interviewed him and had he selected Montreal, went with him as their new head coach. Reaching out to Gallant was another example of that.

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DON    9
3 hours ago, Link67 said:

 

Now, while I agree completely that among the faults in Bergevin, the top 2 for me are The lack of getting a top Center by any means, in 5 years. And that Lefevbre still has a damn job after the countless development failures we have watched the past few years.

 

That being said, firing a GM who hasn't pooped the bed nearly bad enough to warrant it just doesn't work for me, I think he still deserves a bit more time to do what he is doing. Secondly to that, I keep hearing stuff like Firing him so someone else can come in and build a contender with what sounds like relative ease compared to Bergevin. I'm curious to see who this person is? What legitimate, experienced Front Office guy who is bilingual do we all see coming in behind Bergevin, with the magic map in his possession that will reveal the sure fire way to building a contender? If Bergevin gets Fired tomorrow, who do we Hire that has a much better chance to improve a team that isn't even bad at all, its actually pretty good, just not quite there yet. 

 

Names? 

Grass is always Greener is one.

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DON    9
8 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

There does come a point when players need to be held accountable. No question 

Who could of predicted; a moderate offense from both Plekanec and Gallagher was not happening, Beaulieu's game would fold like a cheap umbrella and just how weak the Habs defense looked without Weber on the bench for just 7 minutes of one meaningful game.

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2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Before Nill landed a GM job, people were talking about him like he was Kenny Holland 2.0, back when that meant something. He was the "next great" GM.

 

I remember many pundits saying the same thing about Jim Benning. They weren't as effusive, but almost surprised nobody took him out from under Peter Chiarelli. I guess now we know why.

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Stogey24    221
10 hours ago, DON said:

Who could of predicted; a moderate offense from both Plekanec and Gallagher was not happening, Beaulieu's game would fold like a cheap umbrella and just how weak the Habs defense looked without Weber on the bench for just 7 minutes of one meaningful game.

I said like 2 and half years ago Plekanec looks like shit. He was a step slower, couldn't beat defenders on the rush, his passing was non existent. His point totals didn't take as big of a hit then,  but I could 100% see his play declining. 

 

Bergevin should have seen this coming 

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Commandant    599
14 hours ago, DON said:

"This is his sixth off-season in charge, we needs to stop with trying being good enough" So yes you did say exactly that. I am not a mind reader if you meant something else? But, you also know you can suggest or propose anything and has zero consequences. Unlike a Habs GM, who has a bit more pressure and reality to deal with. How many top players actually want to even play in Quebec? Bergy said he kicked tires on many players and said some were just not interested, but does that stuff ever factor in discussions here, it is "No he is just too cheap, he let player X sign with team Y instead, what an idiot, should be fired!" "He played hard-ball with Radulov and let him walk, what an idiot, should be fired!" etc etc

 

 

Then your reading comprehension is a fail, cause i responded to your post saying that he was trying to get a centre. You also take my quote out of context.  Here is the full quote, and if you read the whole thing, you don't need to be a mind reader to read this and see what it means. 

"I don't care how hard he's tried to get a centre, the fact is that his job is to fix this team's problems and make it a contender.  This is his sixth off-season in charge, we needs to stop with trying being good enough.  Get it done, or let someone else take the reins who can get it done."

 

Its clearly about the centre issue.  But you twist it to be about something else cause you have no response to the fact he hasn't been able to get that centre. 

 

Again 6 off-seasons.... in 6 off-seasons, he needs to stop trying to get a centre and get a centre. 

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Commandant    599
13 hours ago, illWill said:

Am I wrong?

 

Tell me how the math is wrong in a now 31 team league. What are the odds of a clear cut Stanley Cup favorite to win the Cup heading into a season? 14%? You know how math works right? 

 

They play the games for a reason, and it's the same reason why getting to the playoffs is the most important goal

 

Realistically there are only a few teams that can win a cup in any given year, not 31.  Guess what, Vegas, not winning the 2018 cup... Vancouver, not winning the 2018 cup, Colorado, Arizona, New Jersey, Buffalo, etc... not winning the cup. 

 

Realistically there are what, 6 or so "true contenders" who can win a cup. 

 

The Habs have been in that tier just below the true contenders for a while now.  What have they needed to take the next step? A true number 1 centre. What has our GM done to get one?  Well he's tried, he tells us he's trying.  He doesn't get it done, but he's trying guys. 

 

 

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Commandant    599
11 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Before Nill landed a GM job, people were talking about him like he was Kenny Holland 2.0, back when that meant something. He was the "next great" GM, credited for a lot of the Red Wings success in years prior. He was the best available candidate at the time. Habs did contact him, and Nill said no to an interview. It never got far enough. Also Molson never said a word about the GM not being bilingual.

 

That's the thing. We've yet to see a situation where the best available coach/GM was out there, and Montreal ignored them because they weren't bilingual. I think the Habs were just handing Therrien his extension back when Babcock was available. I don't believe for a second that they wouldn't have interviewed him and had he selected Montreal, went with him as their new head coach. Reaching out to Gallant was another example of that.

 

Dallas is going to have a very good team next year. 

Nill has gotten them two #1 centres in trades in the last 5 years.  He had a major problem in goal, and he's now solved that with Ben Bishop.  Oh and he's slowly building that blue line. 

Seems to me he's taken his team quite a ways. 

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Stogey24    221
4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Dallas is going to have a very good team next year. 

Nill has gotten them two #1 centres in trades in the last 5 years.  He had a major problem in goal, and he's now solved that with Ben Bishop.  Oh and he's slowly building that blue line. 

Seems to me he's taken his team quite a ways. 

100%.

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DON    9
14 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Dallas is going to have a very good team next year. 

Nill has gotten them two #1 centres in trades in the last 5 years.  He had a major problem in goal, and he's now solved that with Ben Bishop.  Oh and he's slowly building that blue line. 

Seems to me he's taken his team quite a ways. 

Cept taking them into the playoffs or giving up goals, you can have 10 #1 centres, worthless without defense and goaltending. Ya, doing great job!

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Stogey24    221
52 minutes ago, DON said:

Cept taking them into the playoffs or giving up goals, you can have 10 #1 centres, worthless without defense and goaltending. Ya, doing great job!

Pretty sure he just upgraded his goalie and defense. Did he not? 

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Commandant    599
56 minutes ago, DON said:

Cept taking them into the playoffs or giving up goals, you can have 10 #1 centres, worthless without defense and goaltending. Ya, doing great job!

 

Acquired Ben Bishop, see this is what a GM does when he recognizes the problem on his team.... he goes and gets a solution. 

 

Acquired Marc Methot

Drafted Miro Heiskanen

 

Meanwhile Esa Lindell had a good rookie season, and Julius Honka is ready to break into the league.  His defense is rapidly improving. 

 

 

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Stogey24    221

Bishop was a great signing for them 

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DON    9
29 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Acquired Ben Bishop, see this is what a GM does when he recognizes the problem on his team.... he goes and gets a solution. 

 

Acquired Marc Methot

Drafted Miro Heiskanen

 

Meanwhile Esa Lindell had a good rookie season, and Julius Honka is ready to break into the league.  His defense is rapidly improving. 

 

 

Missed playoffs 7 of last 9 years...promising...and you want Bergy to quit but praise this fellow, odd? Basement dwellers typically got no where to go but up and improve.

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