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Sept. 20, Washington vs Montreal, 7 PM


dlbalr

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That's very well put but when you have an individual who plays center, they are placed into more puck battling situations than your conventional player and so it seems only logical that someone who plays center should be good at battling for the puck off of a face off. 

 

While it's true that 51% vs 49% won't make much of a difference in a short sample when a player is your #1 center, they should be the player you have confidence throwing out there to win that controlled puck battle, especially when it is in the offensive zone. There's nothing worse than having 5.4 seconds left on the clock with an offensive zone draw, or 10 seconds left on a 5 on 3 with an offensive zone draw, or the list could go on, and having that feeling that your team is at the disadvantage when it come to winning the draw. After some time a pattern develops and it can become almost predicatable. If I had the choice, that's not who I want my first line center to be because he's going to be out there in the key situations. As much as I said all puck battles are relevant,  who cares if McCaron wins a puck battle and then flip it out into the other team's glove because of the lack of skill he has to do anything with it. If Drouin were to be good at face offs, it would be a huge benefit to our team because he and his line mates have skill to be dangerous with possession and they won't have to play as much defense simply because they didn't lose the draw. The best defense is offense and you can't score without the puck. 

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4 minutes ago, Toronthab said:

When I paid attention he lost the draws. I'm surprise too that he was at 46.. but who was he facing? The tryout crowd? It would be nice if one of these guys could excel and flourish at centre but if not.. c'est la vie. 

I agree and I'm still hopeful that Drouin will pan out at center. I keep relating him to Crosby and he's found a way to be a career 52% despite his size and so hopefully Drouin can keep working on it and keep getting better. Hopefully the refs haven't treated Crosby any differently over the years when it comes to allowing him to cheat, etc.

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Faceoff% is not overrated.

Is vital in critical situations, especially on special teams and late in game in defensive zone when coaches will run out their best faceoff centre to take the faceoff.

Who is considered the best defensive centre in the NHL...Bergeron and what is his faceoff%? Just coincidence?

Why did the best player in NHL work hard to develop his proficiency on faceoffs, because it is important facet of being a top centre?

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3 minutes ago, DON said:

Faceoff% is not overrated.

Is vital in critical situations, especially on special teams and late in game in defensive zone when coaches will run out their best faceoff centre to take the faceoff.

Who is considered the best defensive centre in the NHL...Bergeron and what is his faceoff%? Just coincidence?

Why did the best player in NHL work hard to develop his proficiency on faceoffs, because it is important facet of being a top centre?

Agreed but I suppose its part of a matrix of pluses and minuses. One important variable with a centre. Which reminds me.. where'd I put my bag of important variables.... gotta go look for them.. :mellow:

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4 hours ago, Commandant said:

All puck battles lead to possession. 

 

1 on 1 puck battles have also been studied, its about a 5 to 1 ratio vs faceoffs. 

Winning an uncontrolled puck battle was also said to lead to slightly more High Danger Scoring Chances than a faceoff.  This is because teams are not coached and set up to defend winning/losing a one-on-one battle in the corner, where there are numerous strategies to defend against a face-off loss.  Yes, they aren't always successful, and some faceoffs lead to good chances and goals, but the fact remains that more chances are created from winning a battle for a loose puck following a rebound, or in a corner than off a draw. 

Are face-offs important? sure. 

Are they more important than other puck battles? No.  in that way, faceoff percentage has become overrated. 

Give me the players HDSC% or Corsi% over his face-off number any day of the week.  I care about the total number of chances he is on the ice for, at both ends of the rink created from all situations (including but not limited to faceoffs).  To me that is a far more relevant number than a pure percentage of faceoff wins. 

yet another example of a stat that is becoming outdated. ... like plus/minus.  Useful in some contexts, but others are far more important indicators of whether or not the player will become a good centre. 

I like your thinking on this topic. It's really a good point. One difference between a face off and a typical puck battle though, is the set Play. Players practice set plays a lot around defensive and offensive zone cave offs. I don't think it's quite as easily dismissed as you make it sound. But I agree with your thinking. It's a overblown topic by commentators. Meanwhile, a player wins 85%of his puck battles can be overlooked because nobody tracks it

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1 minute ago, BCHabnut said:

I like your thinking on this topic. It's really a good point. One difference between a face off and a typical puck battle though, is the set Play. Players practice set plays a lot around defensive and offensive zone cave offs. I don't think it's quite as easily dismissed as you make it sound. But I agree with your thinking. It's a overblown topic by commentators. Meanwhile, a player wins 85%of his puck battles can be overlooked because nobody tracks it

 

Thats why scoring chance %, or corsi % is so much more important.  Cause it tracks winning all battles. 

The reality is that the goal is to create chances at the offensive end, and prevent chances at the defensive end.  If you are doing that, creating more chances than you give up, then you are a good two way player, regardless of how many face-offs you win or lose.  

Bergeron's winning faceoffs isn't what makes him a great two way player.  Winning battles all over the ice, preventing scoring chances against his team and creating chances for himself and teammates is what makes him valuable. 

Really though who cares about won or lost battles that don't lead to chances to score.  Chances to score and goals are what matters. 

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Such a weird argument. 1-0 New Jersey right now and their goal came right off a draw. Meanwhile I have the Devils commentators commenting on how important it is to win a draw on the PP/PK. Who are we going to want out there to take the draw on the PP? Our first line center.

 

Doesn't matter that Julien has apparently said (I'm hearing this live) that one of our main issues last season on the power play was losing the draw and that he feels that that's an important thing that needs to be changed this year. 

 

Why not excel at every aspect of the game?

 

You can Corsi this and Fenwick that but face off wins do lead to scoring chances or lack thereof. 

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7 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Such a weird argument. 1-0 New Jersey right now and it was off the draw. Meanwhile

I have the Devils commentators commenting on how important it is to win a draw on the PP/PK. Who are we going to want out there to take the draw on the PP? Our first line center.

 

Doesn't matter that Julien has apparently said (I'm hearing this live) that one of our main issues last season on the power play was losing the draw and that he feels that that's an important thing that needs to be changed this year. 

 

Why not excel at every aspect of the game?

 

You can Corsi this and Fenwick that but face off wins do lead to scoring chances or lack thereof. 

 

And if faceoff wins lead to chances, they are captured in Corsi and Fenwick.   Those stats do not exclude chances after faceoff wins. 

What they do is capture all chances.  So if you are bad at faceoffs, but make up for it in other areas, that is captured, which is why Schiefele can be a dominant forward at around 45% on faceoffs... or why no one cares that Malkin is at 40% and never talk about moving him to wing.  If you give up a couple chances a game due to losing a faceoff, but then create 10 more chances than the average player, are you going to swap that guy out for someone who is well rounded in all areas and is 50% on faceoffs, and 50% on chances? 

I'd rather have the players who create/prevent most chances in all aspects of the game than worry about faceoffs. 

If Drouin is scoring points and playing decent defence, but losing faceoffs, why would we care?

Corsi/Fenwick/Scoring Chance %.... these are the stats measuring how a player does in all aspects of the game. 

Faceoff %... this is a stat that measures only one specific aspect. 

So you are right... why would you look at the stat that only measures one aspect in stead of the one that measures how you excel in all aspects. 

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The difference is that Scheifele had decent personal stats however his team as a whole suffered and didn't make the playoffs. Face offs are just as important for the team as they are for the individual.

 

Malkin is on a team with Crosby whereas we are starving for a proficient first line center. 

 

Our situation is different in that we have claimed that Drouin is, for some reason, the answer to a hole that has needed to be filled for quite some time. If you yourself are concerned that his defensive play may be something to worry about, then one would hope he is at least competent at face offs which is one of the other main differences between a winger and a centerman.

 

I'd personally rather hope that Drouin improves in the area, or hope that last game was an outlier, than state that it doesn't matter if centers are good at face offs or not. What makes him a center man then, if he's spent most of his time as a winger? Just because we need him to be?

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No, the reason the Jets didn't make the playoffs has nothing to do with Schiefele, and everything to do with having the worst goaltending in the NHL. 

 

And Malkin would be a great player even without Crosby.  Like when he won the scoring title and Hart trophies when Crosby was injured with his concussion/whiplash problems. As great as Crosby is, Malkin would be a great player on any team in the NHL.  He's not a product of Crosby. 

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What makes Drouin a centre or a winger?  These are the factors that will decide it, not his face-off percentage. Does he learn to play a two-hundred foot game?  Does he have the ability to be defensively responsible without the puck and support the defenders? Does he read the play well? Cover his man? Win battles down low? Transition quickly without cheating?

 

These are the things that I'm looking for, that NHL coaches will look for, long before they worry if he's 45% or 50% on the draw. 

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I guess it's true that they don't seem to care as Drouin has been terrible at the dot throughout his career and yet the coaches still want to play him at center. I didn't know that was the case until this minute.  I only noticed with my own eyes how weak he looked on the draw.

 

So everything you mentioned about Drouin and what would make him an effective center man are still question marks? That's reassuring. Furthermore, if winning battles down low is just as important and similar as a faceoff, then I don't see why he would be any better in that area than he is on the draw.

 

I'm excited to have Drouin and wish him the best but while everything else is still a question mark,  apparently him being weak on the draw is a known fact and doesn't matter. To me it does and if he were 55% on the draw it would be a lot easier to comprehend why anyone views him as a center rather than just throwing someone into the fire.

 

Malkin is a great player but if the Pens need a face off win, they'll go with Crosby. This is further exemplified by the fact that Malkin plays wing the rare times he plays on the same line with Crosby. We may have some good defensive zone face off men, but when we need an offensive zone face off win, I won't be holding my breath for a Drouin win. If it's so wrong to criticize that, then fine.

 

If we had other elite centermen on he team as the Pens do, only then would it become a non issue.

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31 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Such a weird argument. 1-0 New Jersey right now and their goal came right off a draw. Meanwhile I have the Devils commentators commenting on how important it is to win a draw on the PP/PK. Who are we going to want out there to take the draw on the PP? Our first line center.

 

Doesn't matter that Julien has apparently said (I'm hearing this live) that one of our main issues last season on the power play was losing the draw and that he feels that that's an important thing that needs to be changed this year. 

 

Why not excel at every aspect of the game?

 

You can Corsi this and Fenwick that but face off wins do lead to scoring chances or lack thereof. 

Yup, good ol Corsi. I think Crosby is and has been one of worst corsi players in league isn't he...does anyone need to say more. I had heard that any reliance on fancy stats was already passé, as proven to be mostly useless and more actual scouts is the trend for teams.

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We won't be using Drouin to check the other team's top line, or to take a defensive zone draw in the last minute.  And that's fine.  That doesn't have to be part of his role at centre. 

And yes, those are question marks for Drouin.  They are question marks for any player looking to play his first full season at centre.  Luckily they are also things that a hard working player can learn how to do.  Patrice Bergeron wasn't always good at them, he learned. So have many players. 

The things that aren't question marks... how Drouin gains the line and establishes possession... how he sees the ice and distributes the puck to linemates... how he stickhandles and can maintain possession... his vision.... his offensive instincts... all those aspects of being a number 1 centre, they aren't things you can teach and they are things Drouin has in spades. That is why coaches want to try him at centre, cause he has the skills you need but that you can't teach a player to have. 

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1 hour ago, DON said:

Yup, good ol Corsi. I think Crosby is and has been one of worst corsi players in league isn't he...does anyone need to say more. I had heard that any reliance on fancy stats was already passé, as proven to be mostly useless and more actual scouts is the trend for teams.

 

No, funny thing is Crosby is one of the best corsi players in the league.  So is Connor McDavid.  Funny how that works.  

 

Both have great advanced stats and they are the two best in the game. 

 

Funny how teams are spending more and more money on analytics depts too.... passe? hardly. 

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Again, faceoffs are somewhat important.  I'm not saying they have zero value. 

 

I'm just saying other things are more important.  Things that aren't tracked in a single stat but help to make up some larger ones.  And those things are what make and break centres in the NHL.... faceoffs get all the attention, and while its obviously better to be good at them then it is to be bad at them.  They aren't nearly as big a deal as what announcers and media often give them credit for. 

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