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2017-18 NHL Thread


dlbalr

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Drouin has been a winger for one game this season.  One. 

 

Oh and by the end of the first period he was back at centre.

 

Is that what we call having him on the wing "at times".


The guy has been almost exclusive at centre, and they have lived with all his defensive shortcomings and been working to improve them. 

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4 hours ago, Commandant said:

They won't... but thats what should have been done from day one and should be done now. 

In your opinion as a fan, knowing absolutely zero of what has been said to him after practices, during games and sit downs with coaches...etc

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2 hours ago, Commandant said:

Paul Byron is one name. Charles Hudon and Daniel Carr have also been used at centre this year. 

 

They currently have Jacob de la Rose centring the second line... A guy who had no offence before this year. 

 

 

And it is simply exhibition games, so they can afford to see what these kids have (or don't have) when given a chance to play more. They already know what 27 can do and he is doing well...even as a winger.  

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34 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Drouin has been a winger for one game this season.  One. 

 

Oh and by the end of the first period he was back at centre.

 

Is that what we call having him on the wing "at times".


The guy has been almost exclusive at centre, and they have lived with all his defensive shortcomings and been working to improve them. 

 

My post wasn't about Drouin. It was about Galchenyuk. People are saying they should have done what they are doing with Drouin with Galchenyuk and yet they are two different players. My point was that whenever Julien does use Drouin or Galchenyuk at wing, it's because he wants them to play in the offensive zone. This is not my opinion. 

 

 

This quote came prior to the game where Drouin was moved to wing on a line centered by De La Rose:

Quote

 

"I want that line to spend more time in the offensive zone," Julien said. "I'm hoping [De La Rose] will help create turnovers and let the others use their skills more in the offensive zone."

Julien said the change was made because the team's next two games are on the road. After Boston, the Canadiens play Friday night in Washington before returning home Saturday night for their third game in eight days against the rival Bruins.

Drouin, who ended a 13-game goal-less drought against the Islanders, didn't seem to mind the move.

"Honestly, it doesn't change anything," he said. "I've played a lot on the wing the last few years.

"I'm more used to that than playing centre."

 

If they have chosen to proceed with Drouin at center as you suggest then perhaps they feel it's because he is either stronger defensively than Galchenyuk or that Drouin can continue to produce offense while still playing a responsible defensive game, whereas Galchenyuk cannot. It could be his offence that suffers, his defense that just isn't there, or a combination of the two. 

 

I personally want Galchenyuk at center but first of all it's too easy to say that the team should let him struggle there throughout any difficulties and also it's far from certain that Galchenyuk at center even has the impact most people "know" it will when it comes to discussing the overall performance of the team. It's just as much something "different" as it is a definitive recipe for success.

 

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A few things Don

 

1) We don't need to be on the coaching staff to be able to observe games and how the players are used.  Galchenyuk and Drouin can make the same mistake, and one continues to be used at centre, and the other gets shifted to play wing, and last year was put on the fourth line as a result.  Quite simply there is no denying that they are treated differently. 

 

2) The way Julien and Bergevin have answered questions about the two players and the contrasts that are there can also be observed.  They are striking. 

 

3) Doing well on the wing is 44 points in 73 games.  In the 46 games prior to his knee injury, the time from when he was moved to centre in 2016 to when he got hurt against the Kings... he scored 44 points.  So I guess "doing well" is pretty relative as a concept. 

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If MB and MT's message is basically "trust us, we know best," well, they did little to warrant such trust. So, no. All the evidence we possess suggests that they f**ked up the development of Galchenyuk as a C. I'll trust that evidence before I trust to the secret wisdom of those two proven buffoons.

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2 hours ago, Commandant said:

A few things Don

 

1) We don't need to be on the coaching staff to be able to observe games and how the players are used. Why players are used as they are you need inside info. Galchenyuk and Drouin can make the same mistake, and one continues to be used at centre, and the other gets shifted to play wing, and last year was put on the fourth line as a result. Again you are ignorant of why each player is used differently, a smart guy once said no two players are the same..some guy named Ben.  Quite simply there is no denying that they are treated differently. But WHY is that, you and rest of us are taking wildass guesses or speculating.

 

2) The way Julien and Bergevin have answered questions about the two players and the contrasts that are there can also be observed.  They are striking. They are two different individuals, who have had different conversations with coaches and are given different instructions...see comment above from Ben.

 

3) Doing well on the wing is 44 points in 73 games.  In the 46 games prior to his knee injury, the time from when he was moved to centre in 2016 to when he got hurt against the Kings... he scored 44 points.  So I guess "doing well" is pretty relative as a concept. If you want to live in the past, go nuts, even Galchenyuk said he thinks he is playing better overall than he was back then, even if his offense is lower, see a direct quote from him a month or so ago.

 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

If MB and MT's message is basically "trust us, we know best," well, they did little to warrant such trust. So, no. All the evidence we possess suggests that they f**ked up the development of Galchenyuk as a C. I'll trust that evidence before I trust to the secret wisdom of those two proven buffoons.

And dont forget Buffoon Muller as well, he is the one often seen conversing with Galchneyuk post practice, not head coach.

But of course, you know best given all your NHL player personal coaching experience.

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11 minutes ago, DON said:

And dont forget Buffoon Muller as well, he is the one often seen conversing with Galchneyuk post practice, not head coach.

But of course, you know best given all your NHL player personal coaching experience.

Saucy 

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We don't have NHL coaching experience, so Don says we aren't allowed to talk about coaching decisions. 

 

We also don't have GMing experience, so we should stop talking about that too. 

We also don't have playing experience, so why talk about the game at all. 

Dlblair might as well just shut down the board... nothing we can talk about anymore by that logic. 

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Just looking up the standings for the first time in a while and noticed that Dallas is likely going to miss the playoffs. Looks good on Radulov

 

Yes I'm still bitter he chose to leave 

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4 hours ago, illWill said:

Just looking up the standings for the first time in a while and noticed that Dallas is likely going to miss the playoffs. Looks good on Radulov

 

Yes I'm still bitter he chose to leave 

 

So he'd be missing the playoffs in Montreal or Dallas. Certainly ain't his fault, he's been great. Dallas is just very average across the board and carried by their top players.

 

If Bergevin offered him more he'd likely have stayed. But hey, final offers and all.

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

So he'd be missing the playoffs in Montreal or Dallas. Certainly ain't his fault, he's been great. Dallas is just very average across the board and carried by their top players.

 

If Bergevin offered him more he'd likely have stayed. But hey, final offers and all.

 

Yeah so let's fault Bergevin for not offering more money to a guy that still wouldn't have got them to the playoffs according to you. He offered the exact same contract, he gave him a chance back in the NHL after having a terrible reputation, Radulov said he loved it in Montreal, but let's blame Bergevin. But hey, Radulov got more dollars after tax so I'm sure he could care less about missing the playoffs 

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3 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

Yeah so let's fault Bergevin for not offering more money to a guy that still wouldn't have got them to the playoffs according to you. He offered the exact same contract, he gave him a chance back in the NHL after having a terrible reputation, Radulov said he loved it in Montreal, but let's blame Bergevin. But hey, Radulov got more dollars after tax so I'm sure he could care less about missing the playoffs 

 

He's a gamer so he probably cares. I don't know the guy.

 

I do know Montreal couldn't afford to lose him but did anyway because final offer. 

 

In the words of Bergevin, if you want loyalty buy a dog. It's a business. Good business is keeping Radulov. Great business is seeing that teams were wrong about him and signing him long term instead of a one year prove yourself deal. Bad business is knowing you have nobody to replace the guy who wants to sign with you, making a final offer that's only equal to another team's offer, and your only response to it is to sign Ales Hemsky.

 

They probably would have missed the playoffs anyway because it's still Bergevin. Maybe this team would be pushing for a playoff spot with Radulov but with the shape of the defence and Drouin/Plekanec as the top two centres I have my doubts. 

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At the time is sounded like Radulov was in Russia during contract signing time and likely just told agent "I had a good year...now you do your part and get me the best deal you can, text me when is done."

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Watching all these teams sign players to entry level contracts really drives home the terrible drafting we have done in the last few seasons. 

 

We we literally have 0 high impact players in the pipeline 

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21 minutes ago, Davehab said:

Watching all these teams sign players to entry level contracts really drives home the terrible drafting we have done in the last few seasons. 

 

We we literally have 0 high impact players in the pipeline 

 

I don't see that at all.... 

The Average NHL team gets 1.8 players per draft with 100 NHL games. 

Lets look at Drafting since Bergevin took over. 

 

2017 - way too early to expect anyone to make an NHL impact..... Poehling, Brook and Fleury have had fantastic seasons at the college/junior level.  Ikonen a bit disappointing early but has turned it on late.  Tszyka a solid year.  Walford a so-so season.  Overall this draft really looks good. 

2016 NHL draft... sergachev and mete are both likely to be top 4 NHL defencemen at this very early point, and there may be more coming out of that draft as Bitten has shown some promise. All without a second round pick.

2015 NHL draft... Juulsen looks like a player.... too early to tell on Vejdemo, Bourque and Addison, but no one would be surprised if all three bust. 

2014 NHL draft.... Scherbak is an NHLer.... its a bit early on Lernout but I'm not encouraged... Jake Evans is going to get a contract, hopefully with us... Hayden Hawkey looks like he has a chance too. 

2013 NHL Draft.... Lehkonen and Andrighetto are NHLers.... De la Rose has hit the 100 game mark, but is probably less than we would have wanted... McCarron likely hits the 100 game mark but is again probably less than we wanted.

2012 NHL Draft.... Galchenyuk and Hudon are NHLers... 

He's found 10 NHL players in the 5 drafts looked at (I avoided 2017 in the stats). Is likely to hit more than that as prospects develop.

So we are above the 1.8 average. 

We also have to look at the quality of prospects. 

Top Talent - Galchenyuk and Sergachev are top line fwds/top pair D

 

Middle talent - Juulsen, Scherbak, Hudon, Lehkonen, Mete, all look like middle 6 forwards, or second pair defence.  .
 

4th liners/bottom pair/journeymen... DLR, McCarron, Andrighetto (some might put him in the middle though).

So in 5 drafts.... two top talents... five for the middle six..... and three journeymen.... plus prospects still developing in Bitten, Evans etc... that might become NHLers still. 


We are an above average drafting team. 

We have a shit GM though. 
 

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21 minutes ago, Commandant said:

The Average NHL team gets 1.8 players per draft with 100 NHL games. 

 

I would in a second trade McCarron/DLR/Fucale/Lehkonen/Crisp/Ghetto's 456 NHL games for Shea Theodore's 107.

 

Amount of games means nothing if the players suck (I still like Lehkonen but I'm making a point)

 

It's getting annoying to hear people talk up our games played by prospects as if that makes us an above average drafting team when really it just means we're more willing to play mediocre prospects in the NHL than other teams. I'm sure nobody in Ottawa is excited to talk about Curtis Lazar's 239 NHL games as proof of their success in drafting. 

 

We can't just boil drafting quality to games played. 

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19 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

I would in a second trade McCarron/DLR/Fucale/Lehkonen/Crisp/Ghetto's 456 NHL games for Shea Theodore's 107.

 

Amount of games means nothing if the players suck (I still like Lehkonen but I'm making a point)

 

It's getting annoying to hear people talk up our games played by prospects as if that makes us an above average drafting team when really it just means we're more willing to play mediocre prospects in the NHL than other teams. I'm sure nobody in Ottawa is excited to talk about Curtis Lazar's 239 NHL games as proof of their success in drafting. 

 

We can't just boil drafting quality to games played. 

 

Um... if you read my full post the point that it can't just be about games played, and has to be about quality was already addressed.

 

But sure... if you think 2 out of the 10 (McCarron, De la Rose), being journeymen NHLers is a bigger percentage than what other teams are getting in their 1.8 players per draft, show me those numbers.   Cause realistically that doesn't seem outrageous. 

 

Not sure why you bring up Fucale or Crisp, players who are acknowledged as busts in that analysis (implicitly by my not even mentioning them), but sure, other teams have 2nd and 3rd round busts too, that was kind of the point. 

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I find it funny that a organization that's says its hard to get a number one center in the draft or free agency , has been passing them up in the first round of the draft  for the past 20 years now.

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44 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Um... if you read my full post the point that it can't just be about games played, and has to be about quality was already addressed.

 

But sure... if you think 2 out of the 10 (McCarron, De la Rose), being journeymen NHLers is a bigger percentage than what other teams are getting in their 1.8 players per draft, show me those numbers.   Cause realistically that doesn't seem outrageous. 

 

Not sure why you bring up Fucale or Crisp, players who are acknowledged as busts in that analysis (implicitly by my not even mentioning them), but sure, other teams have 2nd and 3rd round busts too, that was kind of the point. 

 

Yes, there isn't a single team in hockey where all of their picks succeed. Of course. But Timmins is mediocre at best. With 14 first round picks since 2003 he has Kostitsyn, Chipchura, Price, Fischer, McDonaugh, Pacioretty, Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, McCarron, Scherbak, Juulsen, Sergachev, and Poehling to show for it. We can say for sure that four of them have been very good first round picks with Sergachev possibly five. You then have Kostitsyn and Beaulieu as "disappointing as a first round pick but a credible NHL player", a couple unknowns in Poehling/Juulsen/Scherbak due to age and Chipchura/Fischer/Leblanc/Tinordi/McCarron as guys we know will never play up to "Top 30 best player of their year". In NHL standings terms that's 5-5-4. Not a winning record.

 

55 minutes ago, Metallica said:

I find it funny that a organization that's says its hard to get a number one center in the draft or free agency , has been passing them up in the first round of the draft  for the past 20 years now.

 

Montreal has a historically bad record in the draft for selecting centres. It's pretty astonishing. 

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25 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Yes, there isn't a single team in hockey where all of their picks succeed. Of course. But Timmins is mediocre at best. With 14 first round picks since 2003 he has Kostitsyn, Chipchura, Price, Fischer, McDonaugh, Pacioretty, Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, McCarron, Scherbak, Juulsen, Sergachev, and Poehling to show for it. We can say for sure that four of them have been very good first round picks with Sergachev possibly five. You then have Kostitsyn and Beaulieu as "disappointing as a first round pick but a credible NHL player", a couple unknowns in Poehling/Juulsen/Scherbak due to age and Chipchura/Fischer/Leblanc/Tinordi/McCarron as guys we know will never play up to "Top 30 best player of their year". In NHL standings terms that's 5-5-4. Not a winning record.

 

 

Montreal has a historically bad record in the draft for selecting centres. It's pretty astonishing. 

 

Oh, the first round is the only thing we evaluate scouting on.

 

I fully ackowledge that Timmins first round record is average.  Heck I'll even agree its been below average. 

 

His picks after the first round? Since 2003? Thats amongst the top in all of hockey. 

 

Subban, Streit, Halak, Gallagher, Mete, Grabovski, S. Kostitsyn, Emelin, O'Byrne, Weber, D'agostini, White, Hudon, Andrighetto, Lapierre.   Thats a lot coming outside the first round. 

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24 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Oh, the first round is the only thing we evaluate scouting on.

 

I fully ackowledge that Timmins first round record is average.  Heck I'll even agree its been below average. 

 

His picks after the first round? Since 2003? Thats amongst the top in all of hockey. 

 

Subban, Streit, Halak, Gallagher, Mete, Grabovski, S. Kostitsyn, Emelin, O'Byrne, Weber, D'agostini, White, Hudon, Andrighetto, Lapierre.   Thats a lot coming outside the first round. 

 

4 of the players you named were 2008 and after. Lot of hockey been played since 2008. Lots of draft picks. Lots of teams have also got good players since in rounds after the first. And sucking in the first round is a big deal. That's where you usually find superstars.

 

How's his record since 2008? Enough to fire. Instead he's received nothing but promotions and so many folks think he's some golden calf we have to keep. Him and Churla have not been good enough. Period. Find someone new.

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2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

We can't just boil drafting quality to games played. 

Sure one can and many do just that.

You can base it on whatever you like. 

 

How do you base your teams in drafting success?

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