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2017-18 NHL Thread

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His record from 2008 - 2011 sucks.  

 

Guess what also happened from 2008 - 2011, every draft was missing either the first or second rounder.  Most were missing the third rounder too.  

 

His record from 2012-2016 is pretty darn good, just based on guys already in the NHL, its above average for what would be expected.  You've still got guys like Bitten, Evans, Hawkey, and Vejdemo. If two or more of those four become legit NHLers, you've gone from above average, to top 5 in the league over the time period. 

 

Then you have a 2017 draft where at the same age, Poehling outproduced Mittelstadt (considered by many the top prospect outside the NHL).  Not saying Poehling is as good as mittelstadt, but in the same conference, at the same age, against the same competition, Poehling had better numbers. Then you have Brook and Fleury who were amongst the top D in the WHL, Tsyzka who was an upper echelon WHL D, Walford who was good but not great, Ikonen who has turned it on in the second half.  Its early, but his 2017 draft could be a home run. 

 

But we are going to look at the 2008-2011 under a different GM, and with a lack of draft picks to say fire him. 

 

Oh all well he's been counting on Lefebvre to develop his picks. 

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2 hours ago, Metallica said:

I find it funny that a organization that's says its hard to get a number one center in the draft or free agency , has been passing them up in the first round of the draft  for the past 20 years now.

Such as?

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6 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Oh all well he's been counting on Lefebvre to develop his picks. 

 

Yup. Fire him too.

 

Pretty much every level of management aside from goalie coaching has been below par. Get rid of everyone except Waite and maybe Rockstrom in scouting. Raid every other team in the league for their best people.

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39 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Oh, the first round is the only thing we evaluate scouting on.

 

I fully ackowledge that Timmins first round record is average.  Heck I'll even agree its been below average. 

 

His picks after the first round? Since 2003? Thats amongst the top in all of hockey. 

 

Subban, Streit, Halak, Gallagher, Mete, Grabovski, S. Kostitsyn, Emelin, O'Byrne, Weber, D'agostini, White, Hudon, Andrighetto, Lapierre.   Thats a lot coming outside the first round. 

 

The post that started this all off was ultimately a complaint that we have no high impact players in the pipeline. It's not easy to get high impact players outside of the 1st round, so strictly criticizing the 1st round performance is pretty valid.

 

Nashville is about to get Tolvanen for their playoff run. Buffalo gets to watch Casey Middlestadt for the last 6 games. We're watching all our top prospects struggle to be 3rd liners. Unless someone takes a giant leap forward in development, our high impact prospects haven't even been drafted yet. Until then it's going to be really hard to get excited for a bunch of "Oh ya, he'll probably make the NHL as a middle-six winger/4-5 defenseman" prospects.

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1 minute ago, Trizzak said:

 

The post that started this all off was ultimately a complaint that we have no high impact players in the pipeline. It's not easy to get high impact players outside of the 1st round, so strictly criticizing the 1st round performance is pretty valid.

 

Nashville is about to get Tolvanen for their playoff run. Buffalo gets to watch Casey Middlestadt for the last 6 games. We're watching all our top prospects struggle to be 3rd liners. Unless someone takes a giant leap forward in development, our high impact prospects haven't even been drafted yet. Until then it's going to be really hard to get excited for a bunch of "Oh ya, he'll probably make the NHL as a middle-six winger/4-5 defenseman" prospects.

 

This franchise is literally down to people hoping Kerby freakin' Rychel plays some games up with us. It's pathetic at this point.

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4 minutes ago, DON said:

Such as?

Such as you ask

 

2003 passed on

Carter

Getzlaf 

Kesler 

Richards 

Bergeron 

 

2004 passed on 

Zajac 

 

2006 we passed on

Giroux 

Berglund 

 

2007 pass on

Backlund 

 

2009 passed on

Kreider 

O'reilly 

 

2010 passed on

Kuznetsov 

 

Thats just to name a few for you 

 

 

 

 

 

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I'll bet that if Subban and Sergachev were still on our team, we'd have a somewhat more positive view of the Habs' ability to draft impact players. The lack of impact FWs since 2013 is an irritant for sure, however. Lehkonen is harder to be excited about after this season. I like Hudon, but sheesh, Chris Higgins 2.0 is not exactly setting my hair on fire. Maybe if Scherbak can round into form we'll have something more promising to point to. But it's been pretty much a parade of FW nonentities from the farm since the Gal(l)ys got here.

 

The thing with not going through a sustained period of "tanking" is that, if you want to contend, it's not enough to show that your drafting is competent. It has to be really excellent, and that includes finding impact guys outside the first round, as well as in the first round. Our drafting may be OK all things considered, but OK isn't good enough.

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1 hour ago, Trizzak said:

 

The post that started this all off was ultimately a complaint that we have no high impact players in the pipeline. It's not easy to get high impact players outside of the 1st round, so strictly criticizing the 1st round performance is pretty valid.

 

Nashville is about to get Tolvanen for their playoff run. Buffalo gets to watch Casey Middlestadt for the last 6 games. We're watching all our top prospects struggle to be 3rd liners. Unless someone takes a giant leap forward in development, our high impact prospects haven't even been drafted yet. Until then it's going to be really hard to get excited for a bunch of "Oh ya, he'll probably make the NHL as a middle-six winger/4-5 defenseman" prospects.

 

About that.... The 25th pick in the draft... Ryan Poehling... had more production than 8th overall pick Casey Mittelstadt.

 

Not saying that makes him a better prospect, but considering the pick level, thats not bad drafting if you ask me. 

 

Tolvanen was a steal as well, but 29 other teams missed on him too.  (Note: I had Tolvanen at 13 last year, so I never understood why he fell so far). 

 

But again i think this is more on the GM then it is on scouting.... 

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

This franchise is literally down to people hoping Kerby freakin' Rychel plays some games up with us. It's pathetic at this point.

 

Kerby Rychel is not in the top 10 prospects in this franchise.  Let's be real now. 

 

He's performing in the AHL, so it would be nice to see him get some games as a reward... but he's not on the list of prospects that includes (in no particular order) 

 

Scherbak, Poehling, Juulsen, Evans, Lindgren, Primeau, Brook, Fleury, McNiven, Ikonen, Tszyka, Bitten, Valiev, all ahead of him. 

 

People want to shit on this prospect pool, and have been doing so for well over a year now, but doing so means ignoring the fact that many of our prospects are having great years this season. 

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27 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Kerby Rychel is not in the top 10 prospects in this franchise.  Let's be real now. 

 

He's performing in the AHL, so it would be nice to see him get some games as a reward... but he's not on the list of prospects that includes (in no particular order) 

 

Scherbak, Poehling, Juulsen, Evans, Lindgren, Primeau, Brook, Fleury, McNiven, Ikonen, Tszyka, Bitten, Valiev, all ahead of him. 

 

People want to shit on this prospect pool, and have been doing so for well over a year now, but doing so means ignoring the fact that many of our prospects are having great years this season. 

Is it the prospects we are 💩on our the player evaluation and development we are 💩on???

 

I for one have always been 💩on player development and evaluation. I think we would have much better prospects if these two issue were fixed.

 

We drafted galchenyuk with hopes of him being our number one center. Now he can't play center in the NHL. What went wrong??? Well our player evaluation on galchenyuk and our development on galchenyuk went wrong.

 

Then we trade for Drouin to be our number one center. Now he too cant play center in the NHL. Again our player evaluation is wrong.

 

Who ever is making the calls on these player evaluations needs to go.

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Every team has prospects looking good. Especially when you remove all of the prospects not looking good.

 

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22 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Every team has prospects looking good. Especially when you remove all of the prospects not looking good.

 

 

Which is again the argument.... they have 10 guys looking like surefire NHLers in 5 drafts... which is above NHL average already, with still some prospects developing. 

 

2 of those players look to be first liners/first pair D (Galchenyuk is there, Sergachev isn't there yet, but is likely to be that), and Scherbak might make it 3. 

 

Even if Scherbak is just a middle 6.... you've got 5 or 6 middle line players (depends how you grade Andrighetto)

 

and 2 or 3 bottom liners. 

 

This is above NHL average even if those "promising prospects" don't develop.  If they do develop... then you've hit a home run. 

 

The idea that our system has been shit, is just not true.  

 

Our Gm has been shit.... If we don't trade Subban... lose Markov/radulov for nothing... sign Alzner to an albatross deal... etc... then no one is complaining about the prospects. 

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9 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Which is again the argument.... they have 10 guys looking like surefire NHLers in 5 drafts... which is above NHL average already, with still some prospects developing. 

 

2 of those players look to be first liners/first pair D (Galchenyuk is there, Sergachev isn't there yet, but is likely to be that), and Scherbak might make it 3. 

 

Even if Scherbak is just a middle 6.... you've got 5 or 6 middle line players (depends how you grade Andrighetto)

 

and 2 or 3 bottom liners. 

 

This is above NHL average even if those "promising prospects" don't develop.  If they do develop... then you've hit a home run. 

 

The idea that our system has been shit, is just not true.  

 

Our Gm has been shit.... If we don't trade Subban... lose Markov/radulov for nothing... sign Alzner to an albatross deal... etc... then no one is complaining about the prospects. 

Thats not true people are complaining about our prospects because theres no top 6 in there. Losing Markov hurts because we have no one in the prospects pool to replace him. The guys we have now aren't ready, which is why we held on to him to long. We should of traded him when he came back from his leg injury, but we didn't. Plekenec we should of traded along time ago instead of paying him 6mil, but again no one to replace him In our system. But this doesn't land on Bergevin, its the GM's before him it lands on. After we became contenders we stopped drafting and development of players, we stopped adding depth in our system.

 

What failed this organization is we didn't know how to make the jump to contenders  an still draft and develop players in our system, This is that end affect of it.

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3 hours ago, Trizzak said:

 

The post that started this all off was ultimately a complaint that we have no high impact players in the pipeline. It's not easy to get high impact players outside of the 1st round, so strictly criticizing the 1st round performance is pretty valid.

 

Nashville is about to get Tolvanen for their playoff run. Buffalo gets to watch Casey Middlestadt for the last 6 games. We're watching all our top prospects struggle to be 3rd liners. Unless someone takes a giant leap forward in development, our high impact prospects haven't even been drafted yet. Until then it's going to be really hard to get excited for a bunch of "Oh ya, he'll probably make the NHL as a middle-six winger/4-5 defenseman" prospects.

Bingo, give yourself a cigar, for nailing the fundamental problem with this management group.  They seem to strive to either draft, trade for, or chase free agent players that are at best 3rd/4th liners, or bottom pairing or depth dmen. 

 

We are are the poster child for Bettman’s new MHL (mediocre hockey league), but we take it too new extremes, by doing a great job of trading for (most of MB’s trades with the exception of Drouin - which I still hated, because we gave up our best prospect, but didn’t fill our biggest need), signing (with the exception of Radulov - who was “final offered” Out of town, while MB ineptly wasted his savings on a useless crap dman), or drafting and developing bottom end talent (and I use the word developing very loosely, because the only thing Lefebve has developed is the passionate hatred of habs fans towards him).

 

I guess there are a few guys on this site that get all excited about some of these moves MB makes,  until they discover that maybe the bums we picked up really are the bums most of us thought they would be.

 

whats in the pipeline to get excited for next year - nada!

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This late season push of RNH being McDavid's new winger is no bueno for the prospect of trading for RNH in the summer.  If they decide he and McJesus make a deadly combo and then Draisaitl is the Number 2 centre... He's no longer an overpaid luxury on the 3rd line, he's their top winger. 

 

Look to them to then move guys like Sekera, Ryan Strome, and others to get cap compliant. 

 

It might not even be that hard to be cap compliant if the cap hits 82 million as some are predicting. 

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Detroit beats pitt and is 1 point behind us again 

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Vancouver helps out x2 by beating the Ducks, moving themselves within 3 points of the Habs and helping LA's playoff chances. 

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12 hours ago, Commandant said:

This late season push of RNH being McDavid's new winger is no bueno for the prospect of trading for RNH in the summer.  If they decide he and McJesus make a deadly combo and then Draisaitl is the Number 2 centre... He's no longer an overpaid luxury on the 3rd line, he's their top winger. 

 

Look to them to then move guys like Sekera, Ryan Strome, and others to get cap compliant. 

 

It might not even be that hard to be cap compliant if the cap hits 82 million as some are predicting. 

 

Arrrgh. Imagine being so rich at C you can afford to 'throw away' RNH at wing. Meanwhile, for our GM, well...as we all know, getting a legitimate top-6 C is too 'tough'.

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17 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Arrrgh. Imagine being so rich at C you can afford to 'throw away' RNH at wing. Meanwhile, for our GM, well...as we all know, getting a legitimate top-6 C is too 'tough'.

Its too tough because we always pass them up in the draft do to bad player evaluation.

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On 3/26/2018 at 3:54 PM, Metallica said:

Such as you ask

 

2003 passed on

Carter

Getzlaf 

Kesler 

Richards 

Bergeron 

 

2004 passed on 

Zajac 

 

2006 we passed on

Giroux 

Berglund 

 

2007 pass on

Backlund 

 

2009 passed on

Kreider 

O'reilly 

 

2010 passed on

Kuznetsov 

 

Thats just to name a few for you 

 

 

 

 

 

:1vomit:

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Kreider is not a centre.

 

Backlund is nothing special.

 

Berglund is a glorified Lars eller clone.

 

Zajac is nothing special.

 

Mike richards is a coke head who is out of the league.

 

I mean sure... thats half your list.

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But yes... every team misses on players.  Bergeron is a second rounder that every team passed over.... many teams passed on kesler and getzlaf and others to.

 

Scouting is not exact.

 

Someone took Benoit pouliot over carey price.  Every team passed on PK subban.  A bunch of teams passed on max Pacioretty.  Every team passed on kucherov.  Gallagher was taken in the 5th round.  Zetterberg and Datsyuk were late picks.  Halak went in the 7th round.  Hornqvist was the very last pick in the draft.  

 

Yeah scouting is inexact... and every single team has guys they missed.

 

Thats why you cant measure scouting that way.  Every team in history fails under this method.

 

 

A fair way to analyze it is how many nhlers you picked vs how many other teams took... while also looking at the quality of the players (1st line, fourth line etc...)

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13 minutes ago, Commandant said:

But yes... every team misses on players.  Bergeron is a second rounder that every team passed over.... many teams passed on kesler and getzlaf and others to.

 

Scouting is not exact.

 

Someone took Benoit pouliot over carey price.  Every team passed on PK subban.  A bunch of teams passed on max Pacioretty.  Every team passed on kucherov.  Gallagher was taken in the 5th round.  Zetterberg and Datsyuk were late picks.  Halak went in the 7th round.  Hornqvist was the very last pick in the draft.  

 

Yeah scouting is inexact... and every single team has guys they missed.

 

Thats why you cant measure scouting that way.  Every team in history fails under this method.

 

 

A fair way to analyze it is how many nhlers you picked vs how many other teams took... while also looking at the quality of the players (1st line, fourth line etc...)

The point I am making is that we as an organization had many opportunity to get a Ture  # center in the draft but we passed on drafting them. So this organization can't cry that there hard to come by.

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30 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Kreider is not a centre.

 

Backlund is nothing special.

 

Berglund is a glorified Lars eller clone.

 

Zajac is nothing special.

 

Mike richards is a coke head who is out of the league.

 

I mean sure... thats half your list.

Ok so was picking chipchura over Zajac  a better evaluation?

 

Was Picking kostitsyn over Carter or Getzlaf a better evaluation ?

 

Was Picking Urquhart over bergeron or weber  a better evaluation ?

 

Was Drafting Fischer over Giroux  a better evaluation ?

 

Was Drafting tindori over Kuznetsov a better player evaluation ?

 

You can add drafting galchenyuk and trading for Drouin and weber

 

These are all bad player evaluation moves. This is what needs to get better in order for us to become a cup contending team. 

 

 

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Every single team in the league has a long list of players that it passed up in the draft, in favour of inferior players or outright busts.  So that kind of cherry-picking is not the right way to assess a team's player evaluation. The assessment has to go by cumulative numbers (e.g., totals games played by picks, that sort of thing).

 

That said, the team's inability to draft even top-6 C (let alone an elite C) since the Tomas Plekanec draft...is pretty strange. You'd think we'd hit on one just by the law of averages.

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