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Bergevin......


REV-G

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

The novel about him being a GM of an AHL team?

 

Again, thats a paperwork job.  Its not trades.  its not a lot of signings (maybe a coupld AHL only deals at the bottom of the roster)... but i'd rather have an OHL GM experience over a guy whose role is AHL GM. 

I think those are very valid points. With that in mind I wonder how much more scouting Yzerman did in Detroit before coming to Tampa versus what Brisebois is doing now. Being a player and knowing many of the players and learning how good guys were by playing against them certainly would have helped Yzerman a lot and probably would have taught  him a lot about how to evaluate talent ...all of which Brisebois may or may not have. We don't know....so is it a risk? 

 

I'd like to know how some of the younger successful GM's today started out. Did any of the successful ones come in with JB's background or did they all have either a playing or scouting background?   

 

Obviously whenever a new GM is put in place we must get it right. Personally I like what someone suggested yesterday or today, we need a new President. Toronto's first smart move was to bring in a former player who had some front office [NHL] experience and then he went out and built his team.

 

That's probably asking [dreaming] for way too much.

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Here's two questions.  First, can Molson really have faith in Bergevin at this point? What would be the evidence or proof that Molson should have faith that Bergevin can turn this around. He inherited a team with the third pick in the first round of the draft, he had Carey Price, PK, Max P, Markov and some other pieces. And now 5 years later what does he have. No first line centre, no PK, no Markov,  a terrible defence and the team is worse now that it has been for some time. So why should Molson have confidence that MB can and should be given the right to fix this mess?

 

Second question. Why wait to make a change? I can see waiting until the new year just to be sure that this team isn't going to turn it around. But by January if we are out of the playoffs and winning at the rate we are now, why wait till April, May or June and have a new guy come in without a lot or prep time to head into the draft and the free agent frenzy. Make the change sooner than later so the new guy has more time to see what he has and get ready for the busy months of June and July.

 

If the right guys aren't available right now, that's understandable. But if Molson makes the decision and lets MB walk say in January, we know it's going to likely take months to get the new guy in place, so let Dudley run the ship for now and find the right guy.

 

Why wait for spring.....do it now [or first thing in the new year]!!

 

What do you think? 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, REV-G said:

Here's two questions.  First, can Molson really have faith in Bergevin at this point? What would be the evidence or proof that Molson should have faith that Bergevin can turn this around. He inherited a team with the third pick in the first round of the draft, he had Carey Price, PK, Max P, Markov and some other pieces. And now 5 years later what does he have. No first line centre, no PK, no Markov,  a terrible defence and the team is worse now that it has been for some time. So why should Molson have confidence that MB can and should be given the right to fix this mess?

 

Second question. Why wait to make a change? I can see waiting until the new year just to be sure that this team isn't going to turn it around. But by January if we are out of the playoffs and winning at the rate we are now, why wait till April, May or June and have a new guy come in without a lot or prep time to head into the draft and the free agent frenzy. Make the change sooner than later so the new guy has more time to see what he has and get ready for the busy months of June and July.

 

If the right guys aren't available right now, that's understandable. But if Molson makes the decision and lets MB walk say in January, we know it's going to likely take months to get the new guy in place, so let Dudley run the ship for now and find the right guy.

 

Why wait for spring.....do it now [or first thing in the new year]!!

 

What do you think? 

 

 

 

I'm with you. There is no reason to allow MB to do more damage. Go the interim route. 

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Should they lose to Nashville tonight (likely), it would be perfect timing to fire him Thursday morning.  Subban having a hand in driving the final nail in Bergevin's coffin would be poetic justice.

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1 hour ago, REV-G said:

Here's two questions.  First, can Molson really have faith in Bergevin at this point? What would be the evidence or proof that Molson should have faith that Bergevin can turn this around. He inherited a team with the third pick in the first round of the draft, he had Carey Price, PK, Max P, Markov and some other pieces. And now 5 years later what does he have. No first line centre, no PK, no Markov,  a terrible defence and the team is worse now that it has been for some time. So why should Molson have confidence that MB can and should be given the right to fix this mess?

 

Second question. Why wait to make a change? I can see waiting until the new year just to be sure that this team isn't going to turn it around. But by January if we are out of the playoffs and winning at the rate we are now, why wait till April, May or June and have a new guy come in without a lot or prep time to head into the draft and the free agent frenzy. Make the change sooner than later so the new guy has more time to see what he has and get ready for the busy months of June and July.

 

If the right guys aren't available right now, that's understandable. But if Molson makes the decision and lets MB walk say in January, we know it's going to likely take months to get the new guy in place, so let Dudley run the ship for now and find the right guy.

 

Why wait for spring.....do it now [or first thing in the new year]!!

 

What do you think? 

 

 

 

Well the one time Bergevin has been charged with selling assets at the deadline, he managed to get Philip Danault and a 2nd for Fleischman and Weise, so I don't have much problem with waiting til the season is over to fire him.

 

I'm not even 100% sure he gets fired either. He might get the chance to fix this, and if he drafts Dahlin and signs Tavares, well, that's a pretty good fix.

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28 minutes ago, Trizzak said:

 

Well the one time Bergevin has been charged with selling assets at the deadline, he managed to get Philip Danault and a 2nd for Fleischman and Weise, so I don't have much problem with waiting til the season is over to fire him.

 

I'm not even 100% sure he gets fired either. He might get the chance to fix this, and if he drafts Dahlin and signs Tavares, well, that's a pretty good fix.

The problem is development of players and draft. As long as he thinks there isn't any issue with that things will never get fixed.

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44 minutes ago, Trizzak said:

 

Well the one time Bergevin has been charged with selling assets at the deadline, he managed to get Philip Danault and a 2nd for Fleischman and Weise, so I don't have much problem with waiting til the season is over to fire him.

 

I'm not even 100% sure he gets fired either. He might get the chance to fix this, and if he drafts Dahlin and signs Tavares, well, that's a pretty good fix.

 

If you're Tavares, are you coming to this gong-show?

 

Also, in 2016 he wasn't trying to "re-shape the core." His attempts to do THAT have been absolutely terrible.

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21 minutes ago, habsFan1986 said:

The problem is development of players and draft. As long as he thinks there isn't any issue with that things will never get fixed.

 

Great point! I've gotten so busy condemning MB's inept NHL moves that I sometimes forget the real, foundational problem with his reign of error - i.e., the disastrous player development that has made many of those moves 'necessary' in the first place, e.g., signing Pylon Alzner and Leader Shaw.

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20 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

 

You were certainly one of those who seemed to believe that the team was good.  Otherwise, you wouldn't have projected a 2nd place in the division and 5th place in the East...

A few things...

 

First of all, I'm never going to predict for the Habs to miss the playoffs in that contest. 

 

Tied in with that, 95 points was the second lowest total out of anyone who predicted.

 

Thirdly, just on the second page of that thread, I posted my doubts about the team. 

 

Finally, there were post after post where I stated that this was the first year in my life where I didn't feel as though we could contend for a cup. Making the playoffs was and still is achievable in my mind. I'm actually probably one of the rare people who believe that still. Winning the cup without any substantial additions, however, is a whole other story. 

 

The reason I predicted what I did is because I've generally always been a positive fan and didn't want to regurgitate all this negativity but it was very simple in that I could not imagine how a team who had 8 million in cap space could fully expect to compete for a cup, when there were players somewhat available to us who could have increased our odds had they been on our team.

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1 hour ago, habsFan1986 said:

This team went down hill once molson took over it again.  They just don't seem to be interested in what happens with the team as long as they're making money. If we want things to change i think it starts with molson selling the team.

Personally I like Molson as the owner. He just needs to replace himself as President and install a really good hockey man who has had front office experience...I hate to say it....here it comes........like the Leafs have done!  Agghhhhhhh!! 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

If you're Tavares, are you coming to this gong-show?

 

Also, in 2016 he wasn't trying to "re-shape the core." His attempts to do THAT have been absolutely terrible.

 

To play in front of Carey Price for 7 years, possibly...

 

What I am saying is I think it's very possible that Bergevin won't "reshape the core". Sell off expiring contracts and maybe some guys like Benn or Schlemko for draft picks and prospects, for sure... but if Montreal wins the draft lottery, management might be tempted to hold off the rebuild and see if they can hit a home run in free agency.

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On ‎2017‎-‎11‎-‎22 at 0:43 PM, REV-G said:

Personally I like Molson as the owner. He just needs to replace himself as President and install a really good hockey man who has had front office experience...I hate to say it....here it comes........like the Leafs have done!  Agghhhhhhh!! 

I know that pain my son....:(

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On ‎2017‎-‎11‎-‎22 at 0:43 PM, REV-G said:

Personally I like Molson as the owner. He just needs to replace himself as President and install a really good hockey man who has had front office experience...I hate to say it....here it comes........like the Leafs have done!  Agghhhhhhh!! 

Isn't the whole point of a Molson to go down smoothly? Is this a corporate cross purpose!? 

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On ‎2017‎-‎11‎-‎22 at 0:08 PM, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

If you're Tavares, are you coming to this gong-show?

 

Also, in 2016 he wasn't trying to "re-shape the core." His attempts to do THAT have been absolutely terrible.

I LOVE your new picture! ha!

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Bergevin in his 5 years here has failed to build his own cord of players through drafting and player development. Thats where he has gone wrong and that's why he finds it hard for himself to make any kind of trades even having close to 9mil of cap space.

 

We went from a core group of

Price

PK

Gallagher 

Pacioretty 

Plekenec 

Emelin

Markov 

 

to a cord group under MB of

galchenyuk 

lenkonen 

hundon

mete

lindgren

mccarron 

Juulsen 

 

Mccarron and juulsen aren’t full timers yet. But you can see thats a pretty big drop off in talent when it comes to drafting players and developing them.

 

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, habsFan1986 said:

Bergevin in his 5 years here has failed to build his own cord of players through drafting and player development. Thats where he has gone wrong and that's why he finds it hard for himself to make any kind of trades even having close to 9mil of cap space.

 

We went from a core group of

Price

PK

Gallagher 

Pacioretty 

Plekenec 

Emelin

Markov 

 

to a cord group under MB of

galchenyuk 

lenkonen 

hundon

mete

lindgren

mccarron 

Juulsen 

 

Mccarron and juulsen aren’t full timers yet. But you can see thats a pretty big drop off in talent when it comes to drafting players and developing them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A few things. 

 

1) Why are Price, Gallagher, Pacioretty not in the core group. 

 

2) What is a core group if you define it as including players like Emelin, McCarron, and others who are fringe at best?

 

3) How did you manage to misspell 3 members of the team?

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

A few things. 

 

1) Why are Price, Gallagher, Pacioretty not in the core group. 

 

2) What is a core group if you define it as including players like Emelin, McCarron, and others who are fringe at best?

 

3) How did you manage to misspell 3 members of the team?

When a GM takes over he drafts and develop players that challenge and eventually push out the older core group of players that were drafted and developed by the previous GM. When bob took over the team he drafted and developed his core group of players. These players are our core players today.

under Bergevin in his five years here he has yet to draft and develop a core group of players that can challenge and eventually push out the old core that’s here. That’s his big down fall.

 

i am not looking at trades or UFA signings. I am looking at drafting/player development and nhl ready drafted players. This has been bad for the past 7 years and we are seeing the results of it now.

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15 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

I've heard good things about that Hundon guy

Look at bob' s core group of drafting and player development and then look at MB's group of drafting and player development. Who's is better ????

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29 minutes ago, habsFan1986 said:

When a GM takes over he drafts and develop players that challenge and eventually push out the older core group of players that were drafted and developed by the previous GM. When bob took over the team he drafted and developed his core group of players. These players are our core players today.

under Bergevin in his five years here he has yet to draft and develop a core group of players that can challenge and eventually push out the old core that’s here. That’s his big down fall.

 

i am not looking at trades or UFA signings. I am looking at drafting/player development and nhl ready drafted players. This has been bad for the past 7 years and we are seeing the results of it now.

 

A GM doesn't need to push out Carey Price, Max Pacioretty, Brendan Gallagher or some of the other stars who are still in their late 20s on this team. 

 

While there are issues in not replacing Markov and Plekanec... the idea that he has failed by not finding a better goalie than Price through drafting and development is silliness. 

 

 

A good GM should take the pieces he inherits, keep the good ones, build a core, and augment in places that need augmenting.  The problem has nothing to do with the fact that Bergevin hasn't replaced the Gainey/Gauthier core.  It has to do that he never augmented it.  He never added a piece to the forward group in his time, specifically the much needed centre.  And he didn't replace the aging vets creating more holes... 

 

In fact one of the core moves he made to replace a gainey/gauthier core piece with one of his own (Subban for Weber) is a move that shouldn't have been made. 

So while I don't like Bergevin, i think the reason you don't like him is not the problem. 

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8 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

A GM doesn't need to push out Carey Price, Max Pacioretty, Brendan Gallagher or some of the other stars who are still in their late 20s on this team. 

 

While there are issues in not replacing Markov and Plekanec... the idea that he has failed by not finding a better goalie than Price through drafting and development is silliness. 

 

 

A good GM should take the pieces he inherits, keep the good ones, build a core, and augment in places that need augmenting.  The problem has nothing to do with the fact that Bergevin hasn't replaced the Gainey/Gauthier core.  It has to do that he never augmented it.  He never added a piece to the forward group in his time, specifically the much needed centre.  And he didn't replace the aging vets creating more holes... 

 

In fact one of the core moves he made to replace a gainey/gauthier core piece with one of his own (Subban for Weber) is a move that shouldn't have been made. 

So while I don't like Bergevin, i think the reason you don't like him is not the problem. 

First off if you're drafting and player development is great it makes it that much better for you to make trades to improve your team. Thats why teams like ...pens, caps, kings, hawks, sharks, rangers, nash always are able to make trades for star players because there drafting and player development are strong. MB can't or as he says it finds it hard to make trades because his drafting and player development is weak.

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1 hour ago, habsFan1986 said:

First off if you're drafting and player development is great it makes it that much better for you to make trades to improve your team. Thats why teams like ...pens, caps, kings, hawks, sharks, rangers, nash always are able to make trades for star players because there drafting and player development are strong. MB can't or as he says it finds it hard to make trades because his drafting and player development is weak.

 

Jim Rutherford took over for Ray Shero.  He hasn't had to create a new core that pushes Sidney Crosby, Kris Letang and Evgeni Malkin out because they are part of the old regime.  He isn't trading his star players because he's replaced them with new ones. 

Yes, development and drafting is important, but that does not mean that still having Carey Price, Max Pacioretty and Brendan Gallagher on the team is a failure of a GM.

Bergevin's first draft was 2012. 

The players from that draft would be 25. 

You can't have a team where every player is under the age of 25 and have pushed out everyone from the previous regime and there is no veterans.  That's crazy. 


Yes, these areas need fixing, and yes, Bergevin isn't doing a good job with them, but your goals are entirely unrealistic on how to run a franchise. 

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