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Bergevin......


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Seems that most comments on the site that I read that article on in French earlier today had people kind of mocking Markov. For me, it really depends on some of the specifics. I truly feel as though Bergevin mishandled some things in the off season, but did Markov express a want to talk to the organization? Or did he just sit back in an introverted fashion and judge the organization for the way they were handling negotiations. I have a bit of a feeling that it's not like he requested a sit down with Bergevin. While I am completely on Markov's side, and wanted him resigned, I feel as though he played a role in it as well. In a way, you don't want your GM making decisions based on emotion. Perhaps Bergevin felt this was an "easier" way to handle a tough negotiation. In the end, Bergevin had a big hand in losing Markov as well, obviously and when you have no backup plan other than Mark Streit, you've made a mistake somewhere as well.

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10 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

. In the end, Bergevin had a big hand in losing Markov as well, obviously and when you have no backup plan other than Mark Streit, you've made a mistake somewhere as well.

Agree, surly Strait or Schlemko as plan B replacement was pretty weak, especially if going to play hardball with Markov's agent.

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1 minute ago, DON said:

Agree, surly Strait or Schlemko as plan B replacement was pretty weak, especially if going to play hardball with Markov's agent.

I think Markov was his own agent, kinda like how Brodeur was for himself at the end of his career, I think

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8 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

Bergevin trys to set a standard in negotiations. He wants to be known as a hard ass. It's now back fired multiple times. 

Backfired with Markov, but that's about it.

And like most GMs, also several signings that he would like a redo on (Emelin, Desharnais, Plekanec, Briere) and 20 swings and misses with fringe players.

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Guest Stogey24

It didn't back fire with Radulov? Or signing Subban to a bridge contract, or when Subban missed time due to contract negotiations on his long term deal

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3 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

It didn't back fire with Radulov? Or signing Subban to a bridge contract, or when Subban missed time due to contract negotiations on his long term deal

No.

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7 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

Bergevin trys to set a standard in negotiations. He wants to be known as a hard ass. It's now back fired multiple times. 

His ego gets in the way of his potential. He isn't a bad GM, my proof came early, he got rid of the R. Bourque contract and he didn't do it via buy out or by selling the farm. He is not a great GM but can he be a good GM is being questioned in my book

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1 hour ago, ehjay said:

His ego gets in the way of his potential. He isn't a bad GM, my proof came early, he got rid of the R. Bourque contract and he didn't do it via buy out or by selling the farm. He is not a great GM but can he be a good GM is being questioned in my book

 

The guy was gifted a strong core and has done absolutely dick-all with it, while gutting the development system. He's a dummy.

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28 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The guy was gifted a strong core and has done absolutely dick-all with it, while gutting the development system. He's a dummy.

:rofl: I was trying not to be to be personal ( yet True!) but keeping a tone to keep it Real, like the mount :) 

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14 hours ago, ehjay said:

:rofl: I was trying not to be to be personal ( yet True!) but keeping a tone to keep it Real, like the mount :) 

 

Ok, ok, try this.

 

The Montreal Canadiens are a massive money-making machine irrespective of performance. As we've seen with franchises like TO and NYR, this can create a culture in which, while everyone involved would like to win, winning isn't internalized as life or death. This results in people in management playing internal political games, jockeying for influence, protecting their allies from accountability, making hockey decisions based on ego rather than excellence, etc, etc.. Over time this corrodes the entire operation.

 

That we have seen zero accountability in management - Therrien being protected long past the point when a serious organization would have canned him, Lefebvre remaining firmly in place despite a dismal track record - and dumb hockey moves driven seemingly by ego (Subban, Markov) - all suggest that this dynamic is a major factor in explaining the Habs' stagnation. 

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23 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Ok, ok, try this.

 

The Montreal Canadiens are a massive money-making machine irrespective of performance. As we've seen with franchises like TO and NYR, this can create a culture in which, while everyone involved would like to win, winning isn't internalized as life or death. This results in people in management playing internal political games, jockeying for influence, protecting their allies from accountability, making hockey decisions based on ego rather than excellence, etc, etc.. Over time this corrodes the entire operation.

 

That we have seen zero accountability in management - Therrien being protected long past the point when a serious organization would have canned him, Lefebvre remaining firmly in place despite a dismal track record - and dumb hockey moves driven seemingly by ego (Subban, Markov) - all suggest that this dynamic is a major factor in explaining the Habs' stagnation. 

Unfortunately, I think you nailed it. 

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If winning isn't life or death for the Montreal Canadiens, it isn't life or death for any team in the league, so the point is relatively moot. 

 

As if the teams in the league that aren't as rich as the Montreal Canadiens are having so much more success. 

 

Bergevin specifically stated that he wanted players who hated to lose and sure this can be twisted into portraying Bergevin as a man spewing BS, but then there's no need to have a conversation at all. 

 

Therrien may have been an issue but he wasn't a huge one and of course the Montreal Canadiens will have a tougher time canning a coach compared to other teams when the requirement is that we hire another French speaking one. It's no coincidence that he did get fired once Claude Julien got fired and was available himself.

 

The post could have been summed up by stating, as some had already alluded to, that the French speaking policies may put the organization behind the 8 ball in some respects. Moves like Subban for Weber didn't catastrophically damage the team and if we are going to include them in our posts, the Sergachev for Drouin trade should be mentioned as well. Sergachev is a rookie but we traded him at a time where we also let Markov walk. Subban was traded for another top pairing defenseman. Far from a catastrophic move that portrays a team who "doesn't care about winning".

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On 12/10/2017 at 11:30 AM, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Ok, ok, try this.

 

The Montreal Canadiens are a massive money-making machine irrespective of performance. As we've seen with franchises like TO and NYR, this can create a culture in which, while everyone involved would like to win, winning isn't internalized as life or death. This results in people in management playing internal political games, jockeying for influence, protecting their allies from accountability, making hockey decisions based on ego rather than excellence, etc, etc.. Over time this corrodes the entire operation.

 

That we have seen zero accountability in management - Therrien being protected long past the point when a serious organization would have canned him, Lefebvre remaining firmly in place despite a dismal track record - and dumb hockey moves driven seemingly by ego (Subban, Markov) - all suggest that this dynamic is a major factor in explaining the Habs' stagnation. 

 

CC I Love it when you drop it like a mic, as a bonus it seems like you said all the things I have been trying to say in a few posts in just 1! You Should be in the BeerMan's brain trust to pick the next GM :)

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I'm just tired at this point of people point to French.

 

Because it's not like the Montreal Canadiens are cream of the crop at attracting French Canadian talent.

 

The best French Canadian coach not coaching in the NHL? He's coaching for Tampa's AHL team. Habs AHL coach? A complete putz. 

 

We're not attracting the best coaches from Quebec, or the best scouts from Quebec, or the best management from Quebec (Stan Bowman works in Chicago why? Why was Scotty going to Chicago instead of Montreal after Detroit?), we're simply attracting a bunch of former NHL players from Quebec, usually with no experience prior to the Habs. 

 

So until this team is attracting the best Quebec has to offer, and still can't win? Stop blaming it on the French Canadian culture. Right now the problem is there's nothing elite about being a member of the Montreal Canadiens anymore. 

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3 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

So until this team is attracting the best Quebec has to offer, and still can't win? Stop blaming it on the French Canadian culture. Right now the problem is there's nothing elite about being a member of the Montreal Canadiens anymore. 

 

Sorry, but as long as the whole 'French requirement' B.S. has this organization disqualifying potential coaches and GMs, it is a problem.  I don't want the best Quebec has to offer, I want the best the world has to offer.  If the best happens to speak french, great.  If the man can't speak a word of French, but they are the best....then to hell with it, hire that mofo, because it needs to be about winning first.

 

I agree with part of your statemen tthough;  there is nothing elite about the Montreal Canadiens anymore.  Our high-horse riding GM might want to consider that before taking an arrogant position when negotiating with free agents.  The fact is that Montreal is a team that has not been a threat to win a cup in quite some time, the taxes suck, the media sucks, and playing for the team is not some great privilege in the eyes of most NHL players.

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8 hours ago, sbhatt said:

 

Sorry, but as long as the whole 'French requirement' B.S. has this organization disqualifying potential coaches and GMs, it is a problem.  I don't want the best Quebec has to offer, I want the best the world has to offer.  If the best happens to speak french, great.  If the man can't speak a word of French, but they are the best....then to hell with it, hire that mofo, because it needs to be about winning first.

 

This team hasn't hired the best Quebéc has to offer but you expect them to hire the best the world has to offer? Last time they hired someone in high demand was Bob Gainey. In the past 10 years the only NHL coaches they can credit developing are Guy Boucher, Kirk Muller, and Gerard Gallant. This franchise can't even get the best French talent available. Probably best to temper expectations.

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14 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

I'm just tired at this point of people point to French.

 

Because it's not like the Montreal Canadiens are cream of the crop at attracting French Canadian talent.

 

The best French Canadian coach not coaching in the NHL? He's coaching for Tampa's AHL team. Habs AHL coach? A complete putz. 

 

We're not attracting the best coaches from Quebec, or the best scouts from Quebec, or the best management from Quebec (Stan Bowman works in Chicago why? Why was Scotty going to Chicago instead of Montreal after Detroit?), we're simply attracting a bunch of former NHL players from Quebec, usually with no experience prior to the Habs. 

 

So until this team is attracting the best Quebec has to offer, and still can't win? Stop blaming it on the French Canadian culture. Right now the problem is there's nothing elite about being a member of the Montreal Canadiens anymore. 

 

Man, it's quite rare to read a new or original position on this tired issue, but you pulled it off! It's a great point.

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Guest Stogey24
13 hours ago, sbhatt said:

 

Sorry, but as long as the whole 'French requirement' B.S. has this organization disqualifying potential coaches and GMs, it is a problem.  I don't want the best Quebec has to offer, I want the best the world has to offer.  If the best happens to speak french, great.  If the man can't speak a word of French, but they are the best....then to hell with it, hire that mofo, because it needs to be about winning first.

 

I agree with part of your statemen tthough;  there is nothing elite about the Montreal Canadiens anymore.  Our high-horse riding GM might want to consider that before taking an arrogant position when negotiating with free agents.  The fact is that Montreal is a team that has not been a threat to win a cup in quite some time, the taxes suck, the media sucks, and playing for the team is not some great privilege in the eyes of most NHL players.

Exactly.

 

The best Quebec has to offer? If you're still only looking in Quebec for a coach/g.m, it makes no difference whether they are the best or just mediocre. You're still cornering yourself to a specific demographic. 

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1 hour ago, Stogey24 said:

Exactly.

 

The best Quebec has to offer? If you're still only looking in Quebec for a coach/g.m, it makes no difference whether they're the best or just mediocre. You're still cornering yourself to a specific demographic. 

Molson refusing to stand up to media, mob and politicians also dosent help one bit, neither.

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2 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

Exactly.

 

The best Quebec has to offer? If you're still only looking in Quebec for a coach/g.m, it makes no difference whether they're the best or just mediocre. You're still cornering yourself to a specific demographic. 

Exactly.

 

I guess we should also be looking in Paris for the best France has to offer as well.

 

Not that I like Julien but it’s not exactly like he hasn’t been a cup winner in the past with a high pedigree.

 

The Habs hired him because he was the “best” French candidate available at the time, in their opinion and it limited us/them from really thinking about many other options. There are only two or three teams in recent memory who have rehired their coaches after a tenure elsewhere (Hitchcock and the Stars) and it’s no coincidence that the Habs have done this twice in a row.

 

The “best” Quebec has to offer is a personal opinion and to say that Julien wouldn’t have been sought out by many teams as one of the best available isn’t correct. The Habs, on the other hand, are extremely limited to the options and “had” to time their firing of Therrien based on the reality of their limited pool. Julien was the choice because of reasons

 

In this case, the argument could be made that while he was the “best” French Canadian candidate available at the time, he wasn’t the best available coach period. That’s the point. 

 

As for Elite, the Habs have Carrie Prix. 

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Guest Stogey24

I wonder if Bergevin knew more than average folk about Julien being on the hot seat in Boston. Probably the reason Therrien kept his job longer than he should have last year 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

On paper Julien, but in terms of an up comer, Gallant. 

 

Whom the Habs contacted for interview but went with Julien when Julien became available.

 

Despite the fact Gallant cannot speak French, they still contacted him.

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