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Bergevin......

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illWill    455
4 minutes ago, DON said:

 

Oh well, see how they match-up vs SJ today and hope for a entertaining game at least.

 

I can't remember the last entertaining Habs game. I usually end up looking at my phone or falling asleep. Just terrible hockey to watch 

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xXx..CK..xXx    183
34 minutes ago, DON said:

Currently sitting with a 2% chance of making playoffs, not sure that is premature?

Simply because anyone hopes they can turn season around doesn't mean much, sorry to say.

If the team was still showing signs of life I might hold out hope; but to repeat myself, they are in a deep hole, still digging and really with zero signs of turning anything around. 

 

And to top it off, if they sneak into playoffs, does anyone think they can beat Tampa or even the Leafs, then Caps etc.

 

Oh well, see how they match-up vs SJ today and hope for a entertaining game at least.

Definitely. However the point remains the same. With the current state of affairs, we shouldn’t “assume” that Bergevin will add players for a playoff run. There’s no reason to feel that way considering everything you pointed out. Yet the comment was that we should think that Bergevin will perhaps add players (to save his job) for a playoff run. I don’t see it, unless there actually becomes reason to do so.

 

The mere fact I hold slight hope is irrelevant. I only stated it because having hope would be the only reason the team actually would be buyers. Saying Bergevin will be a buyer at the deadline was therefore premature, because that would only happen if the team were in position to do so. If there is indeed no hope for the Habs, the statement about us feeling as though Bergevin will add players for a playoff run were wrong, not premature. I just didn’t want to come off that way. 

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1 hour ago, illWill said:

I can't remember the last entertaining Habs game. I usually end up looking at my phone or falling asleep. Just terrible hockey to watch 

 

Whipping Detroit 10-1 was fun. Troucing Ottawa back in October was good too. For games that weren't blowouts, I think I enjoyed the 3-2 win against Vegas?

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DON    38
4 hours ago, Habopotamus said:

Maybe Steve Ott will come out of retirement 

Good one and welcome sir.

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REV-G    25

After another game like last night, no fight, no excitement, no skill on display, don't you get the sense that something has to happen, is going to happen?? 

 

With fans booing, leaving games early, saying how boring games are, no scoring....honestly, how much longer can Molson sit back and do nothing?

 

The media all seem on the same page. Terrible team, no character, bottom or near the bottom of the league in so many categories.

 

Have to believe that if we go another week or two like this the outcry will be so loud, I'm sure there will be more empty seats, I just don't see how you can keep going like this without doing something.

 

So for the first time, maybe ever, I'm hoping we continue to lose, just so that it will force some changes! 

 

Honestly, I never thought we'd be this bad, this demoralized....I really feel bad for the players. It must be tough coming to the rink each day.

 

If we don't make changes I would think it will be very difficult to attract quality free agents this summer. 

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Chris    3

If you look at the January schedule, they may not win a game this month. 

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Habopotamus    4
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, REV-G said:

After another game like last night, no fight, no excitement, no skill on display, don't you get the sense that something has to happen, is going to happen?? 

 

With fans booing, leaving games early, saying how boring games are, no scoring....honestly, how much longer can Molson sit back and do nothing?

 

The media all seem on the same page. Terrible team, no character, bottom or near the bottom of the league in so many categories.

 

Have to believe that if we go another week or two like this the outcry will be so loud, I'm sure there will be more empty seats, I just don't see how you can keep going like this without doing something.

 

So for the first time, maybe ever, I'm hoping we continue to lose, just so that it will force some changes! 

 

Honestly, I never thought we'd be this bad, this demoralized....I really feel bad for the players. It must be tough coming to the rink each day.

 

If we don't make changes I would think it will be very difficult to attract quality free agents this summer. 

Some of the worst hockey I've watched in years.

 

It's crazy because Bergevin traded all of these players because they didn't have "Character" or were "problems" in the dressing room, but as it turns out, it was himself that was the problem the entire time 

Edited by Habopotamus

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habscout    37
1 hour ago, Habopotamus said:

Some of the worst hockey I've watched in years.

 

It's crazy because Bergevin traded all of these players because they didn't have "Character" or were "problems" in the dressing room, but as it turns out, it was himself that was the problem the entire time 

 

It's starting to remind me of the beginning of the dark ages of the Habs, when Rejean Houle and Mario Tremblay took over, with Houle making an enormous bad trade (P.Roy) followed by several makeup trades, none of which really helped.  

 

I fear for the worst, especially with Bergevin and his brain trust in charge.  

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xXx..CK..xXx    183
1 hour ago, Habopotamus said:

Some of the worst hockey I've watched in years.

 

It's crazy because Bergevin traded all of these players because they didn't have "Character" or were "problems" in the dressing room, but as it turns out, it was himself that was the problem the entire time 

Who are all these players he traded away for lack of character?

 

PK Subban and then?

 

Rene Bourque?

 

Lars Eller?

 

Zack Kassian?

 

Greg Pateryn/Jared Tinordi

 

This is without saying he traded for “problem” players Dale Weise and Tomas Vanek.

 

Rene Bourque should have been traded. Lars Eller wasn’t really a problem and many wanted him out and Kassian, while I didn’t like it, only had himself to blame. Tinordi or Pateryn? Meh, I could group them together and it wouldn’t make a difference. 

 

Who am I forgetting that was traded for this “character” reason that people like to bring up? 

 

 

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Habopotamus    4
Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Who are all these players he traded away for lack of character?

 

PK Subban and then?

 

Rene Bourque?

 

Lars Eller?

 

Zack Kassian?

 

Greg Pateryn/Jared Tinordi

 

This is without saying he traded for “problem” players Dale Weise and Tomas Vanek.

 

Rene Bourque should have been traded. Lars Eller wasn’t really a problem and many wanted him out and Kassian, while I didn’t like it, only had himself to blame. Tinordi or Pateryn? Meh, I could group them together and it wouldn’t make a difference. 

 

Who am I forgetting that was traded for this “character” reason that people like to bring up? 

 

 

All these players probably wasn't the right choice of words. 

 

Mostly referencing subban

Edited by Habopotamus
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Metallica    4

I really thought CJ would be the right fit for this club. When we signed him i was happy. Thought we finally had a coach that could take the next step with this team. But i am starting to realize it's a young mans game today. I don't think CJ understands that. I don't think he knows how to coach in today's NHL.  The same could be said with Bergevin. He has a old school way of thinking, which doesn't work any more in today's NHL. What this organization needs is a guy who is brought up through management in today's era of hockey. 

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14 minutes ago, Metallica said:

I really thought CJ would be the right fit for this club. When we signed him i was happy. Thought we finally had a coach that could take the next step with this team. But i am starting to realize it's a young mans game today. I don't think CJ understands that. I don't think he knows how to coach in today's NHL.  The same could be said with Bergevin. He has a old school way of thinking, which doesn't work any more in today's NHL. What this organization needs is a guy who is brought up through management in today's era of hockey. 

 

I'm agnostic on CJ (although that our three most talented offensive players are all struggling under his reign really does suggest a fundamental problem). But I completely agree on MB. I though we'd hired a GM who understood the new NHL. Turns out he is exactly the opposite - an old-school fool.

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Habopotamus    4
Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I'm agnostic on CJ (although that our three most talented offensive players are all struggling under his reign really does suggest a fundamental problem). But I completely agree on MB. I though we'd hired a GM who understood the new NHL. Turns out he is exactly the opposite - an old-school fool.

 

Julien Is all about funneling pucks to the net. It's the reason this team scores so many fluke goals. The problem with playing that brand of hockey, is it kills the east west style players. Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Drouin... all perimeter players... what Julien is enforcing, completely contradicts how they play the game. 

 

 

Pacioretty has even said in an interview that the team is too worried about structure right now and it's hurting the offense... 

Edited by Habopotamus

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22 minutes ago, Habopotamus said:

 

Julien Is all about funneling pucks to the net. It's the reason this team scores so many fluke goals. The problem with playing that brand of hockey, is it kills the east west style players. Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Drouin... all perimeter players... what Julien is enforcing, completely contradicts how they play the game. 

 

 

Pacioretty has even said in an interview that the team is too worried about structure right now and it's hurting the offense... 

 

I can believe it. He wouldn't be the first coach to overcoach his team into futility. Teams need systems, but I've never agreed that you should inflexibly and unrelentingly impose those systems upon your most gifted players. All that does is kill their dynamism. Have a system but tacitly give those guys leeway to be creative.

 

Guy Lafleur could never follow systems. Bowman just left him alone. Bobby Orr was explicitly exempted from Don Cherry's dump-n-chase model. Wayne Gretzky was a system onto himself. These are three players who would never be allowed to thrive in today's overcoached NHL. Now I know the three guys you list are nowhere near those guys, but I still think flexibility in imposing systems upon your top-end talent is the only ticket.

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Metallica    4

I think we made a mistake  when we let the best coach in our organization Walk. That man was gallant. No surprise things started to fall apart after he left.

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hab29RETIRED    180
2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Who are all these players he traded away for lack of character?

 

PK Subban and then?

 

Rene Bourque?

 

Lars Eller?

 

Zack Kassian?

 

Greg Pateryn/Jared Tinordi

 

This is without saying he traded for “problem” players Dale Weise and Tomas Vanek.

 

Rene Bourque should have been traded. Lars Eller wasn’t really a problem and many wanted him out and Kassian, while I didn’t like it, only had himself to blame. Tinordi or Pateryn? Meh, I could group them together and it wouldn’t make a difference. 

 

Who am I forgetting that was traded for this “character” reason that people like to bring up? 

 

 

What about all of the character/roll players he brought in Dir their leadership that have done squat?

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hab29RETIRED    180
14 minutes ago, Metallica said:

I think we made a mistake  when we let the best coach in our organization Walk. That man was gallant. No surprise things started to fall apart after he left.

Yep.  Given MB actually asked for permission to talk to Gallant, it hurts even more.  After I finished doing the balki batalmakous dance of joy for MT getting fired, my biggest concern was that we hired a MT clone, who was a main reason for the Bruins trading Kessel, Seguin and Hamilton. I said at the time, I could see galchenyuk not working under Julien a d that we would end up trading him away, like we moved Subban.

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xXx..CK..xXx    183

Julien mentioned in the preseason that the team was learning new systems and that for some time they would perhaps be overthinking too much. I completely believe all of this is possible.

 

Whether or not the team should have been accustomed to all these changes by now or whether or not “over coaching” is actually an issue altogether are where the debates arise. 

 

I haven’t loved him at any moment in particular since his (re)arrival but I expected the team to struggle this season so it’s hard to differentiate the two. What I did is expect, based solely on Julien’s comments this preseason, was that the team would get better as the season went on,

due to him as a coach.

 

Barring the injury excuse, if we don’t get better as the season progresses, and it’s progressing, that’s on Julien.

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Habopotamus    4
45 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I can believe it. He wouldn't be the first coach to overcoach his team into futility. Teams need systems, but I've never agreed that you should inflexibly and unrelentingly impose those systems upon your most gifted players. All that does is kill their dynamism. Have a system but tacitly give those guys leeway to be creative.

 

Guy Lafleur could never follow systems. Bowman just left him alone. Bobby Orr was explicitly exempted from Don Cherry's dump-n-chase model. Wayne Gretzky was a system onto himself. These are three players who would never be allowed to thrive in today's overcoached NHL. Now I know the three guys you list are nowhere near those guys, but I still think flexibility in imposing systems upon your top-end talent is the only ticket.

We are witnessing what happens when structure trumps creativity 

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xXx..CK..xXx    183
18 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

What about all of the character/roll players he brought in Dir their leadership that have done squat?

Again, that only mainly refers to the Weber trade and it’s not true that he’s done squat anyway. Danault is leading the team in points give or take even if I don’t like him so that’s another acquired role player who has achieved. Shaw isn’t far behind him. 

 

The Brian Giontas, Hall Gills, Scott Gomezs Travis Moens et al. were all acquired by our previous regime(s). The main argument should be whether or Bergevin has succesfully acquired players with great leadership qualities and experience. Not that he has targeted these players and that the experiment has failed. Karl Alzner is also quite bad, unless he’s surrounded by a powerhouse offense of a team, but I don’t specifically believe he was brought in for his character, having previously been on a perennial underachiever... and that’s not a trade anyway. 

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Habopotamus    4
12 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Again, that only mainly refers to the Weber trade and it’s not true that he’s done squat anyway. Danault is leading the team in points give or take even if I don’t like him so that’s another acquired role player who has achieved. Shaw isn’t far behind him. 

 

The Brian Giontas, Hall Gills, Scott Gomezs Travis Moens et al. were all acquired by our previous regime(s). The main argument should be whether or Bergevin has succesfully acquired players with great leadership qualities and experience. Not that he has targeted these players and that the experiment has failed. Karl Alzner is also quite bad, unless he’s surrounded by a powerhouse offense of a team, but I don’t specifically believe he was brought in for his character, having previously been on a perennial underachiever... and that’s not a trade anyway. 

What was Shaw brought in for?

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Commandant    673
35 minutes ago, Habopotamus said:

What was Shaw brought in for?

 

He goes to the net, he gets under opponents skin, he's decent defensively, and he is on pace for 20 goals. 

 

What is the problem with Shaw?

 

Shaw is one of the few forwards at or exceeding expectations.... really, Shaw, Gallagher, Deslauriers, Carr, Danault, Byron... those guys are doing what should be expected or better. 

Galchenyuk is playing well but not enough ice time on the season. 

 

Drouin and Pacioretty need to do more. 

 

Lehkonen and Hudon look good on the ice, but it hasn't translated to the score sheet. 


Plekanec is a shadow of his former self. 
 

Hemsky is a zero. 

 

 

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hab29RETIRED    180
2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Again, that only mainly refers to the Weber trade and it’s not true that he’s done squat anyway. Danault is leading the team in points give or take even if I don’t like him so that’s another acquired role player who has achieved. Shaw isn’t far behind him. 

 

The Brian Giontas, Hall Gills, Scott Gomezs Travis Moens et al. were all acquired by our previous regime(s). The main argument should be whether or Bergevin has succesfully acquired players with great leadership qualities and experience. Not that he has targeted these players and that the experiment has failed. Karl Alzner is also quite bad, unless he’s surrounded by a powerhouse offense of a team, but I don’t specifically believe he was brought in for his character, having previously been on a perennial underachiever... and that’s not a trade anyway. 

Trades and signings go hand in hand.  Both impact roster spots and salary cap space.  Overcomitring to depth and aging veterans like Alzner (who is not suited for today’s game) or guys who won elsewhere like Shaw, while letting Markov and radulov walk is stupid.

 

constant pattern. Of signing or trading for garbage like Benn, ott, Davidson, king, Streit all in the past two years.  Right from the start of his tenure, targeting a washed up Briere, over-committing Prust, signing Douglas friggin Murray and a washed up Bouillon.  And of course the Subban for Weber stupidity.  All are moves to add leadership and character.

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xXx..CK..xXx    183
17 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Trades and signings go hand in hand.  Both impact roster spots and salary cap space.  Overcomitring to depth and aging veterans like Alzner (who is not suited for today’s game) or guys who won elsewhere like Shaw, while letting Markov and radulov walk is stupid.

 

constant pattern. Of signing or trading for garbage like Benn, ott, Davidson, king, Streit all in the past two years.  Right from the start of his tenure, targeting a washed up Briere, over-committing Prust, signing Douglas friggin Murray and a washed up Bouillon.  And of course the Subban for Weber stupidity.  All are moves to add leadership and character.

Markov is the definition of leadership in whatever way he wanted to show it. So we can’t say Bergevin targets these players and then argue when he lets them walk. 

 

We got Benn for Pateryn. I think Pateryn had good character but his wife made comments.  Benn for Pateryn isn’t a terrible trade off. Ott had been known for attempted murder in the past, so while I was nicely surprised by him, I don’t think he would be the greatest model for a character based player. Davidson was for Desharnais and King was brought in for size more than anything, although he is the closest comparison to a Moen type. 

 

We can argue that he’s made bad moves and we can argue that he’s failed to address a lack of leadership but outside of one trade, it’s not as though he has targeted leadership and failed while doing so. 

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Habopotamus    4
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

He goes to the net, he gets under opponents skin, he's decent defensively, and he is on pace for 20 goals. 

 

What is the problem with Shaw?

 

Shaw is one of the few forwards at or exceeding expectations.... really, Shaw, Gallagher, Deslauriers, Carr, Danault, Byron... those guys are doing what should be expected or better. 

Galchenyuk is playing well but not enough ice time on the season. 

 

Drouin and Pacioretty need to do more. 

 

Lehkonen and Hudon look good on the ice, but it hasn't translated to the score sheet. 


Plekanec is a shadow of his former self. 
 

Hemsky is a zero. 

 

 

No real issue with Shaw. It's just another player added for his character. 6 years 3.9 mill per is also pretty steep for a 30pts player. 

 

10 goals in the next 40 games for Shaw also seems doubtful. 

 

He is 100% not the issue with this team though. He fits Julien's game plan pretty well 

 

Edited by Habopotamus

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