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Bergevin......

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Commandant    673

He's scored 20 goals before.  His career high is 39 points. 

Not sure why 10 more goals is doubtful, or why he's a 30 pts player. 

 

 

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Toronthab    348
On 1/2/2018 at 3:50 PM, illWill said:

 

I can't remember the last entertaining Habs game. I usually end up looking at my phone or falling asleep. Just terrible hockey to watch 

Same here and you know what's really sad and we should keep it in mind, the players are feeling much worse than we are. So here's a kind word to them. They really are doing the best they can in hell :1gohabs:

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DON    38
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Metallica said:

I think we made a mistake  when we let the best coach in our organization Walk. That man was gallant. No surprise things started to fall apart after he left.

Coach good or bad depend mostly on roster they are given to work with. We saw the best with both and Bowman did a tad better in Montreal with numerous hall of famers than he did in Buffalo.

Even a Bowman would be hard pressed, when a Benn is on your top pairing and is best option ya got and then you have ZERO all-star forwards, with top scorer being 145th in scoring.

Edited by DON
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hab29RETIRED    180
4 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Markov is the definition of leadership in whatever way he wanted to show it. So we can’t say Bergevin targets these players and then argue when he lets them walk. 

 

We got Benn for Pateryn. I think Pateryn had good character but his wife made comments.  Benn for Pateryn isn’t a terrible trade off. Ott had been known for attempted murder in the past, so while I was nicely surprised by him, I don’t think he would be the greatest model for a character based player. Davidson was for Desharnais and King was brought in for size more than anything, although he is the closest comparison to a Moen type. 

 

We can argue that he’s made bad moves and we can argue that he’s failed to address a lack of leadership but outside of one trade, it’s not as though he has targeted leadership and failed while doing so. 

MB has targeted his old school definition of leadership and character in almost every dumb move he’s made.  If bergevin actually believed Markov was the definition of leadership, Markov still would be here today.  MB values slow, big, shot blocking dman, that’s pretty much the type of dman he has targeted, and acquired with the exception of Petry.  On a team that was starving for scoring, MB picked up king (no longer in the nhl), ott (no longer in the nhl - always called a character player by old school guys like MB), Martinson and Benn. I would have been happy taking a 5th pick over any of those bums - but no we give up picks for some of them.

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xXx..CK..xXx    183
14 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

MB has targeted his old school definition of leadership and character in almost every dumb move he’s made.  If bergevin actually believed Markov was the definition of leadership, Markov still would be here today.  MB values slow, big, shot blocking dman, that’s pretty much the type of dman he has targeted, and acquired with the exception of Petry.  On a team that was starving for scoring, MB picked up king (no longer in the nhl), ott (no longer in the nhl - always called a character player by old school guys like MB), Martinson and Benn. I would have been happy taking a 5th pick over any of those bums - but no we give up picks for some of them.

Oh. So you know what Bergevin's definition of leadership is. Kassian, Radulov, Vanek, Drouin,  Gonchar, Semin, Weise, Petry all fit that old school character model. This "character" and "leadership" talk does nothing more than keep uptight Habs fans happy for a moment, as they think about how much they hate the general manager. It's no coincidence that every single person who brings up this character and leadership thing vehemently disliked the Subban deal. There's nothing more to the comments than that. 

 

I don't like Bergevin, but I don't make up reasons to dislike him. 

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Metallica    4

For me when it comes to why I have turned my back on Bergevin, its because of the lack of player development. In his 5 years here it has been very poor. We are seeing the affect of it now. You can even make the point that it has been bad ever since our core players became our core players. Its like we stopped the development of players after that. Now he can't make a trade to add a player to the roster because we have no blue chip prospects that other teams want.  He has traded away top prospects for players  without refilling the farm system. The only way he can make a trade is by trading a core player. He doesn't want to do that and that's why we're in the situation we're in now.

 

To me this is someone without a plan. Because of this the team has lost its identity and its direction. When that happens the only way to fix it is with change.  I hate to say it but its time for a new vision for this team.

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xXx..CK..xXx    183

I agree that that's certainly a more reasonable reason to question Bergevin's tenure. I also feel as though he has lacked a clear plan many times during his tenure. 

 

With th that being said, I'm not as convinced that we don't have players who could bring back value to our team. Players like Lehkonen and Hudon have value to us, as well as other teams. I personally think Lehkonen is overvalued and if he were part of the price to pay for a strong center, it wouldn't kill us.

 

This is just one example. I don't particularly want to trade Lehkonen, and even less so Hudon, but our cupboard isn't as bare as some would say. 

 

Trading Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Drouin wouldn't be what I would personally do, but packaging some of Byron, Lehkonen, Danault, Shaw, Scherbak, Hudon, etc. could get us a return during a normal season.

 

The only issue is that we don't tend to package these players in deals for good returns (Desharnais for Davidson). Instead we ship them out in one for one deals. The other issue is that this season, mostly all wouldn't think we should not be buyers at this point and as a result would probably have the opposite vision as t what we should do. I.e. Trading Pacioretty. 

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Metallica    4
9 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I agree that that's certainly a more reasonable reason to question Bergevin's tenure. I also feel as though he has lacked a clear plan many times during his tenure. 

 

With th that being said, I'm not as convinced that we don't have players who could bring back value to our team. Players like Lehkonen and Hudon have value to us, as well as other teams. I personally think Lehkonen is overvalued and if he were part of the price to pay for a strong center, it wouldn't kill us.

 

This is just one example. I don't particularly want to trade Lehkonen, and even less so Hudon, but our cupboard isn't as bare as some would say. 

 

Trading Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Drouin wouldn't be what I would personally do, but packaging some of Byron, Lehkonen, Danault, Shaw, Scherbak, Hudon, etc. could get us a return during a normal season.

 

The only issue is that we don't tend to package these players in deals for good returns (Desharnais for Davidson). Instead we ship them out in one for one deals. The other issue is that this season, mostly all wouldn't think we should not be buyers at this point and as a result would probably have the opposite vision as t what we should do. I.e. Trading Pacioretty. 

What I mean by blue chip prospects is top 6 prospects, We have 0. top 2 d prospects we have  maybe 1 in Mete. But I see him more as a 3rd pairing D top pairing d on pp. These are the kind of prospects you need to trade if you're looking to add to your roster without trading your core group of players. I am sorry but a Hudon,sherbak, lehkonen,danault aren't going to land you a tavares in a trade or any other top 6 NHL play for that matter.

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37 minutes ago, Metallica said:

What I mean by blue chip prospects is top 6 prospects, We have 0. top 2 d prospects we have  maybe 1 in Mete. But I see him more as a 3rd pairing D top pairing d on pp. These are the kind of prospects you need to trade if you're looking to add to your roster without trading your core group of players. I am sorry but a Hudon,sherbak, lehkonen,danault aren't going to land you a tavares in a trade or any other top 6 NHL play for that matter.

 

I agree. Only rarely do you find a GM delusional enough to trade a core piece for a mess of spare parts, a 1st-liner for a bunch of third-liners and maybes. It's not realistic to expect a GM to swing a Thornton-for-garbage kinda deal.

 

What about Pacioretty for, say, Nugent-Hopkins and a good prospect? An under-sell?

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Metallica    4
4 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I agree. Only rarely do you find a GM delusional enough to trade a core piece for a mess of spare parts, a 1st-liner for a bunch of third-liners and maybes. It's not realistic to expect a GM to swing a Thornton-for-garbage kinda deal.

 

What about Pacioretty for, say, Nugent-Hopkins and a good prospect? An under-sell?

Pacioretty is part of our core players. Bergevin doesn't want to give up on our core because he thinks they're good to win with. So Pacioretty isn't going anywhere, Bergevin wants to add a top center or top pairing d without breaking up his core. Its not going to happen with the prospects that we have, which Is why he is finding it hard to swing a deal. His only option is to trade from our core group, ie Pacioretty, Gallagher, galchenyuk, that's why these players names keep coming up in trade rumors because those are his only option tell July 1st to try and improve the team.

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42 minutes ago, Metallica said:

Pacioretty is part of our core players. Bergevin doesn't want to give up on our core because he thinks they're good to win with. So Pacioretty isn't going anywhere, Bergevin wants to add a top center or top pairing d without breaking up his core. Its not going to happen with the prospects that we have, which Is why he is finding it hard to swing a deal. His only option is to trade from our core group, ie Pacioretty, Gallagher, galchenyuk, that's why these players names keep coming up in trade rumors because those are his only option tell July 1st to try and improve the team.

 

I doubt that even MB is enough of a moron to still think this core can ever win anything other than a charity golf tournament.

 

The question, to my mind, is whether Patches will move at the deadline, or sometime in the summer. I can see MB clinging to the hope of a UFA white night and only flipping Pacioretty after that falls through.

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Metallica    4
6 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I doubt that even MB is enough of a moron to still think this core can ever win anything other than a charity golf tournament.

 

The question, to my mind, is whether Patches will move at the deadline, or sometime in the summer. I can see MB clinging to the hope of a UFA white night and only flipping Pacioretty after that falls through.

Thats what I think, I don't see him making any big moves until July 1st. If he can't land tavares then I believe he will trade Pacioretty. Now tell the deadline we will probely see some more band aid type deals that he will hope stop the bleeding.

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xXx..CK..xXx    183

I don’t fully understand why Pacioretty is an issue. He’s as much of an issue as Drouin is, only Drouin is a newer face. Pacioretty wasn’t the reason we lost in the seasons that we did go deep with him. 

 

It’s as though we’re saying the team would be better with Tavares than it would be with Tavares and Pacioretty. 

 

As for trading away for another team’s stud while giving away spare parts, it may be unlikely but if a team does indeed identify a need, they should start to look at the standings and target the teams who will be selling at lower than normal value. It is possible, although we shouldn’t hold our breath. 

 

Unfortunately the Habs seem more likely to be the target of other teams this season.

 

All that being said, I don’t know why trading away Lehknonen + Hudon + a 1st doesn’t get other GMs thinking about trading away a top 6 center. Perhaps not Tavares but there are other options out there as well. 

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Metallica    4
12 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I don’t fully understand why Pacioretty is an issue. He’s as much of an issue as Drouin is, only Drouin is a newer face. Pacioretty wasn’t the reason we lost in the seasons that we did go deep with him. 

 

It’s as though we’re saying the team would be better with Tavares than it would be with Tavares and Pacioretty. 

 

As for trading away for another team’s stud while giving away spare parts, it may be unlikely but if a team does indeed identify a need, they should start to look at the standings and target the teams who will be selling at lower than normal value. It is possible, although we shouldn’t hold our breath. 

 

Unfortunately the Habs seem more likely to be the target of other teams this season.

 

All that being said, I don’t know why trading away Lehknonen + Hudon + a 1st doesn’t get other GMs thinking about trading away a top 6 center. Perhaps not Tavares but there are other options out there as well. 

Pacioretty is Bergevin only bargaining chip, he is under contract for next year 4.5mil for a 30 goal scorer, and doesn't have any NTC or NMC. He is his best asset to get something back in return ie 2nd like center or top 2 D.

 

You need to take your habs blinders off. Lehkonen +Hudon and a 1st wont get you a top 6 player. You are over valuing these guys because you're a habs fan.

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DON    38
1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

What about Pacioretty for, say, Nugent-Hopkins and a good prospect? An under-sell?

Seems a likely type deal, add in mixed bags of picks/2ndary player/prospects to even it out.

Always liked Hopkins.

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Commandant    673
3 hours ago, Metallica said:

What I mean by blue chip prospects is top 6 prospects, We have 0. top 2 d prospects we have  maybe 1 in Mete. But I see him more as a 3rd pairing D top pairing d on pp. These are the kind of prospects you need to trade if you're looking to add to your roster without trading your core group of players. I am sorry but a Hudon,sherbak, lehkonen,danault aren't going to land you a tavares in a trade or any other top 6 NHL play for that matter.

6

 

This team's prospect cupboard is a lot better than you give it credit for. 

 

Blue Chips


Poehling is having a fantastic season for an 18 year old in the NCAA. 
Josh Brook looks amazing in Moose Jaw right now. 

Mete is far better than you are giving him credit for. 
 

A level 


Scherbak has found his game in Laval. 
Noah Juulsen looks like a top 4 D. 
Lindgren, McNiven, Hawkey, and Primeau all look good as goalies, but goalies are voodoo, and who knows, but with 4 good ones, one is bound to turn out. 

B Level

Will Bitten has 27 points in his last 17 games. 
Cale Fleury, Jared Tsyzka, are both having strong seasons.  Both could use defensive work. 

Jake Evans looks great as a senior in the NCAA

Third Level


Ikonen is playing against men and struggling a bit. 
Vejdemo is having his best season yet in Sweden. 
Lernout is a bit of a question mark, but earned a call-up.
I'd like to see more from Scott Walford but he's still been decent.  Better defensively than offensively. 

 

Longshots
Gregoire and Audette have had flashes, but are probably not going to be NHLers.  

 

A really nice draft, along with big development years from Mete, Bitten and Scherbak make this pool look much better than it did a year ago.  Its a big improvement. 

Add to that 4 picks in the top 62 in what should be a good draft this year. 
 

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Trizzak    536
8 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

This team's prospect cupboard is a lot better than you give it credit for. 

 

Add Jake Evans to the B level.

 

Gregoire is holding down the D/Fourth level as well.  

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xXx..CK..xXx    183
38 minutes ago, Metallica said:

Pacioretty is Bergevin only bargaining chip, he is under contract for next year 4.5mil for a 30 goal scorer, and doesn't have any NTC or NMC. He is his best asset to get something back in return ie 2nd like center or top 2 D.

 

You need to take your habs blinders off. Lehkonen +Hudon and a 1st wont get you a top 6 player. You are over valuing these guys because you're a habs fan.

I don't particularly like Lehkonen so I'm not sure how my Habs blinders come into the equation.

 

Lehkonen is arguably a top 6 player on many NHL teams, Hudon is a top 9 player and then you're adding a 1sg round pick and you don't think we'd be able to get a top 6 player back? That's like saying we couldn't get Valperri Filpulla for those players without even considering age, contract or any other factors. My blinders don't have me viewing Lehkonen as having top 6 potential, that's just where his value is.

 

We don't have to trade away our best player to receive our best player back. 

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Metallica    4
2 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I don't particularly like Lehkonen so I'm not sure how my Habs blinders come into the equation.

 

Lehkonen is arguably a top 6 player on many NHL teams, Hudon is a top 9 player and then you're adding a 1sg round pick and you don't think we'd be able to get a top 6 player back? That's like saying we couldn't get Valperri Filpulla for those players without even considering age, contract or any other factors. My blinders don't have me viewing Lehkonen as having top 6 potential, that's just where his value is.

 

We don't have to trade away our best player to receive our best player back. 

If it was that easy as you say don't you think Bergevin would of made a deal by now? There's a reason why he can't find a trading partner even with all this cap space.

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xXx..CK..xXx    183
2 minutes ago, Metallica said:

If it was that easy as you say don't you think Bergevin would of made a deal by now? There's a reason why he can't find a trading partner even with all this cap space.

Well, aren't we here to complain about Bergevin? Instead of attacking him for his quest for leadership, his biggest recent blunder was not addressing our need at center. Last season, while people complain about Ott and Martinsen, I gave him the benefit of the doubt because there wasn't much available. As the off season progressed, things got worse. 

 

Some would argue as well that he made the trade you are referring to in the off season when he traded Sergachev for Drouin. My only personal qualm with that move was that we now or still needed a top pairing LD and I don't view Drouin as a natural center. 

 

Regardless, if Sergachev and a 2nd can get Drouin and a 6th then Lehkonen, Hudon and a 1st would hold value. The main reason that trade wouldn't happen is because the organization themselves value Lehkonen and Hudon highly, not myself. I'm sure they aren't names that immediately come to mind for them when they think trade. 

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Just a thought that has been bugging me. How come the Penguins are sucking as bad as Montreal this year but we don;t hear talk of them trading Crosby or Malkin yet we all are talking about trading Price and Pacioretty?  This teams roster is not that far removed from the one that placed near the top last year. Take the season as a right off, draft high and move forward. Don't be stupid and blow up the core or ditch your best youngsters. Relax, it is a bad season, we had one a few years back, went top to bottom scored Gally then went back to top. Deal with it.

 

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Metallica    4
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Well, aren't we here to complain about Bergevin? Instead of attacking him for his quest for leadership, his biggest recent blunder was not addressing our need at center. Last season, while people complain about Ott and Martinsen, I gave him the benefit of the doubt because there wasn't much available. As the off season progressed, things got worse. 

 

Some would argue as well that he made the trade you are referring to in the off season when he traded Sergachev for Drouin. My only personal qualm with that move was that we now or still needed a top pairing LD and I don't view Drouin as a natural center. 

 

Regardless, if Sergachev and a 2nd can get Drouin and a 6th then Lehkonen, Hudon and a 1st would hold value. The main reason that trade wouldn't happen is because the organization themselves value Lehkonen and Hudon highly, not myself. I'm sure they aren't names that immediately come to mind for them when they think trade. 

I actually think that it was bob 's biggest blunder not addressing our center need in the 03' draft when that draft was full of them.

Edited by Metallica

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Toronthab    348
7 minutes ago, johnnyhasbeen said:

Just a thought that has been bugging me. How come the Penguins are sucking as bad as Montreal this year but we don;t hear talk of them trading Crosby or Malkin yet we all are talking about trading Price and Pacioretty?  This teams roster is not that far removed from the one that placed near the top last year. Take the season as a right off, draft high and move forward. Don't be stupid and blow up the core or ditch your best youngsters. Relax, it is a bad season, we had one a few years back, went top to bottom scored Gally then went back to top. Deal with it.

 

Well... if ya wanna get all adult and everything.. ok.. :huh:

 

My whining at least feels good temporarily and its not like knowing nothing stops me from opinionating... :o

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Metallica    4
8 minutes ago, johnnyhasbeen said:

Just a thought that has been bugging me. How come the Penguins are sucking as bad as Montreal this year but we don;t hear talk of them trading Crosby or Malkin yet we all are talking about trading Price and Pacioretty?  This teams roster is not that far removed from the one that placed near the top last year. Take the season as a right off, draft high and move forward. Don't be stupid and blow up the core or ditch your best youngsters. Relax, it is a bad season, we had one a few years back, went top to bottom scored Gally then went back to top. Deal with it.

 

Because its  the penguins, if we had Crosby and malkin don't you worry the media would be having a field day with all the different trade ideas they could come up with.

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Toronthab    348

No chance of Beliveau coming back I suppose.. :wacko:

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