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Bergevin......

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1 hour ago, Trizzak said:

 

Add Jake Evans to the B level.

 

Gregoire is holding down the D/Fourth level as well.  

 

Agreed on Evans and Gregoire.

 

 

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Why trade Pacioretty?

 

First, he looks completely lost. He seems to be a guy who earnestly wants to lead but has been crushed by his own inability to deliver, by the team's mediocrity, by the pressure, perhaps by CJ's system. Otherwise put, he appears to be a prime candidate for a "change of scenery."  And he has massive value as a trade chip.

 

Second, the core is stale; frankly, it has looked unconvincing ever since Subban left (or, if I wanted to be generous, ever since Weber stopped scoring at a crazy pace in his first six weeks with us). The team has a piss-poor record over an entire year, and even when it made the playoffs looked insipid. At some point, you go, 'well...let's try something else.' Again, Patches has massive trade value so he represents pretty much the only obvious chance to reboot the core.

 

Third, while Patches is only 29, it's not terrifically clear that his game will age all that well. As I've remarked a few times, he has always relied on an extra burst of speed to the outside. We haven't seen that this season, and while I doubt he has actually lost a step, the minute he does lose it, what we see now is what we will get. If we can trade him for a younger asset, we'd have a good young core at FW that maybe can make a run in (say) three years (provided we can fix the atrocious, aging, and incompetent defence).

 

In effect, I basically agree with this analysis: http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/analyze-this-with-playoffs-a-pipe-dream-canadiens-should-look-to-the-future

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19 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Why trade Pacioretty?

 

First, he looks completely lost. He seems to be a guy who earnestly wants to lead but has been crushed by his own inability to deliver, by the team's mediocrity, by the pressure, perhaps by CJ's system. Otherwise put, he appears to be a prime candidate for a "change of scenery."  And he has massive value as a trade chip.

 

Second, the core is stale; frankly, it has looked unconvincing ever since Subban left (or, if I wanted to be generous, ever since Weber stopped scoring at a crazy pace in his first six weeks with us). The team has a piss-poor record over an entire year, and even when it made the playoffs looked insipid. At some point, you go, 'well...let's try something else.' Again, Patches has massive trade value so he represents pretty much the only obvious chance to reboot the core.

 

Third, while Patches is only 29, it's not terrifically clear that his game will age all that well. As I've remarked a few times, he has always relied on an extra burst of speed to the outside. We haven't seen that this season, and while I doubt he has actually lost a step, the minute he does lose it, what we see now is what we will get. If we can trade him for a younger asset, we'd have a good young core at FW that maybe can make a run in (say) three years (provided we can fix the atrocious, aging, and incompetent defence).

 

In effect, I basically agree with this analysis: http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/analyze-this-with-playoffs-a-pipe-dream-canadiens-should-look-to-the-future

The team was stale during Subban’s last full season with us. I remember it very well. It wasn’t Subban’s fault but regardless of Price’s injury that season, the team was playing extremely stale hockey. Last year was better than this year and next year can be better than this one even without trading away Pacioretty.

 

I’m not against trading Pacioretty for a core piece but at best it’s going to likely be a lateral move which you usually are against. 

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5 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

The team was stale during Subban’s last full season with us. I remember it very well. It wasn’t Subban’s fault but regardless of Price’s injury that season, the team was playing extremely stale hockey. Last year was better than this year and next year can be better than this one even without trading away Pacioretty.

 

I’m not against trading Pacioretty for a core piece but at best it’s going to likely be a lateral move which you usually are against. 

I agree I don't think we should trade Pacioretty. I am just saying why everyone thinks we should, and its do to the fact we can get the best return for him. I also think that if Bergevin doesn't land tavares July 1st then he will end up trading Pacioretty.

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Trading a guy for someone who is years younger is not a lateral move. E.g., Nuge is five years younger than Patches.

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Pacioretty to

 

Anaheim.... Steel, Mahura, 2nd

St. Louis.... Kyrou, Walman, 2nd
Nashville.... Fabbro, Petterson, 1st
 

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Metallica said:

I agree I don't think we should trade Pacioretty. I am just saying why everyone thinks we should, and its do to the fact we can get the best return for him. I also think that if Bergevin doesn't land tavares July 1st then he will end up trading Pacioretty.

 

Bergevin doesn't have a hope in hell of landing Tavares as a free agent.  Look back at past history.  Who was the last big ticket free agent to sign in Montreal?  Even coming off the Eastern Conference Final run, they couldn't attract anybody.  Even if you consider Radulov a big ticket free agent, he was gone in a year.  He might be able to get a middle-6 forward or a 3-4 defenseman, but he's not going to get a top 3 because there will too many offers to choose from on other teams, who are at this point closer to making a bone fide Cup run.

Edited by RobRock
grammar

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53 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Trading a guy for someone who is years younger is not a lateral move. E.g., Nuge is five years younger than Patches.

It’s a lateral move at best because Nugent Hopkins has not come close to achieving what Pacioretty has at any point in their career. Nugent-Hopkins has cracked the 20 goal barrier once whereas Pacioretty is a perennial 30 goal scorer. I like Nugent-Hopkins but it would be a mistake to trade Pacioretty for him.

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2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

The team was stale during Subban’s last full season with us. I remember it very well. It wasn’t Subban’s fault but regardless of Price’s injury that season, the team was playing extremely stale hockey. Last year was better than this year and next year can be better than this one even without trading away Pacioretty.

 

I’m not against trading Pacioretty for a core piece but at best it’s going to likely be a lateral move which you usually are against. 

I'm  not a competent observer here but I rather agree that if anything we need to keep something vaguely resembling the Habs team other than Carey and Pleks. Teams aren't abstractions and going core for core.... hmm..

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Did we not hear players reacting to the way negotiations were done... personless faxes? Life is personal. Markov and PK are still close. Did this open the door and maybe give Rad a taste for elsewhere? 

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5 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

This team's prospect cupboard is a lot better than you give it credit for. 

 

Blue Chips


Poehling is having a fantastic season for an 18 year old in the NCAA. 
Josh Brook looks amazing in Moose Jaw right now. 

Mete is far better than you are giving him credit for. 
 

A level 


Scherbak has found his game in Laval. 
Noah Juulsen looks like a top 4 D. 
Lindgren, McNiven, Hawkey, and Primeau all look good as goalies, but goalies are voodoo, and who knows, but with 4 good ones, one is bound to turn out. 

B Level

Will Bitten has 27 points in his last 17 games. 
Cale Fleury, Jared Tsyzka, are both having strong seasons.  Both could use defensive work. 

Jake Evans looks great as a senior in the NCAA

Third Level


Ikonen is playing against men and struggling a bit. 
Vejdemo is having his best season yet in Sweden. 
Lernout is a bit of a question mark, but earned a call-up.
I'd like to see more from Scott Walford but he's still been decent.  Better defensively than offensively. 

 

Longshots
Gregoire and Audette have had flashes, but are probably not going to be NHLers.  

 

A really nice draft, along with big development years from Mete, Bitten and Scherbak make this pool look much better than it did a year ago.  Its a big improvement. 

Add to that 4 picks in the top 62 in what should be a good draft this year. 
 

Getting pretty desperate if you start bring facts and cogent arguments into the discussion aren't you? I never do!

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5 hours ago, johnnyhasbeen said:

Just a thought that has been bugging me. How come the Penguins are sucking as bad as Montreal this year but we don;t hear talk of them trading Crosby or Malkin yet we all are talking about trading Price and Pacioretty?  This teams roster is not that far removed from the one that placed near the top last year. Take the season as a right off, draft high and move forward. Don't be stupid and blow up the core or ditch your best youngsters. Relax, it is a bad season, we had one a few years back, went top to bottom scored Gally then went back to top. Deal with it.

 

This is a pretty good point. We are annoyed, but replacing plekanec, finding a reasonable top 6 centre, and one puck moving top 4 defenseman would move everyone down the depth chart and suddenly you have a winning team again. 

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11 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

It’s a lateral move at best because Nugent Hopkins has not come close to achieving what Pacioretty has at any point in their career. Nugent-Hopkins has cracked the 20 goal barrier once whereas Pacioretty is a perennial 30 goal scorer. I like Nugent-Hopkins but it would be a mistake to trade Pacioretty for him.

Is leading Oilers in goals this year with 15.

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First of all, in positing a Patches for Nuge deal in other threads, I've noted that EDM would have to add a quality prospect or some other inducement. 

 

Second, Nuge is just an example. The point is that the Habs should be looking to move Patches for a top-C (or failing that, I guess, a top-3 W) ho is significantly younger - at least if they can't sign Tavares. And adding another quality young FW is not a lateral move, because it retools the core for years to come.

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18 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I agree that that's certainly a more reasonable reason to question Bergevin's tenure. I also feel as though he has lacked a clear plan many times during his tenure. 

 

With th that being said, I'm not as convinced that we don't have players who could bring back value to our team. Players like Lehkonen and Hudon have value to us, as well as other teams. I personally think Lehkonen is overvalued and if he were part of the price to pay for a strong center, it wouldn't kill us.

 

This is just one example. I don't particularly want to trade Lehkonen, and even less so Hudon, but our cupboard isn't as bare as some would say. 

 

Trading Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Drouin wouldn't be what I would personally do, but packaging some of Byron, Lehkonen, Danault, Shaw, Scherbak, Hudon, etc. could get us a return during a normal season.

 

The only issue is that we don't tend to package these players in deals for good returns (Desharnais for Davidson). Instead we ship them out in one for one deals. The other issue is that this season, mostly all wouldn't think we should not be buyers at this point and as a result would probably have the opposite vision as t what we should do. I.e. Trading Pacioretty. 

I think you have made some very good points here. 

 

16 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

This team's prospect cupboard is a lot better than you give it credit for. 

 

Blue Chips


Poehling is having a fantastic season for an 18 year old in the NCAA. 
Josh Brook looks amazing in Moose Jaw right now. 

Mete is far better than you are giving him credit for. 
 

A level 


Scherbak has found his game in Laval. 
Noah Juulsen looks like a top 4 D. 
Lindgren, McNiven, Hawkey, and Primeau all look good as goalies, but goalies are voodoo, and who knows, but with 4 good ones, one is bound to turn out. 

B Level

Will Bitten has 27 points in his last 17 games. 
Cale Fleury, Jared Tsyzka, are both having strong seasons.  Both could use defensive work. 

Jake Evans looks great as a senior in the NCAA

Third Level


Ikonen is playing against men and struggling a bit. 
Vejdemo is having his best season yet in Sweden. 
Lernout is a bit of a question mark, but earned a call-up.
I'd like to see more from Scott Walford but he's still been decent.  Better defensively than offensively. 

 

Longshots
Gregoire and Audette have had flashes, but are probably not going to be NHLers.  

 

A really nice draft, along with big development years from Mete, Bitten and Scherbak make this pool look much better than it did a year ago.  Its a big improvement. 

Add to that 4 picks in the top 62 in what should be a good draft this year. 
 

Thank you! Finally some good news and hope for the future. If Commandment's reads on these developing players is even close, we're in better shape in the next 3-4 years than I thought! 

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13 hours ago, Commandant said:

Pacioretty to

 

Anaheim.... Steel, Mahura, 2nd

St. Louis.... Kyrou, Walman, 2nd
Nashville.... Fabbro, Petterson, 1st
 

I'd do any of those.

 

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36 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

First of all, in positing a Patches for Nuge deal in other threads, I've noted that EDM would have to add a quality prospect or some other inducement. 

 

Second, Nuge is just an example. The point is that the Habs should be looking to move Patches for a top-C (or failing that, I guess, a top-3 W) ho is significantly younger - at least if they can't sign Tavares. And adding another quality young FW is not a lateral move, because it retools the core for years to come.

If we can't get a top -C for Patches then we should add to so it gets done. For me, if we trade Max it has to be to address our #1 need, a #1 centre. Add to it, do whatever is necessary but don't settle for a winger, if we move Max we must get back a #1 Center. 

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6 minutes ago, REV-G said:

If we can't get a top -C for Patches then we should add to so it gets done. For me, if we trade Max it has to be to address our #1 need, a #1 centre. Add to it, do whatever is necessary but don't settle for a winger, if we move Max we must get back a #1 Center. 

 

Agree...package him with two first-rounders if need be, but for God's sake get a high quality center in return...I'd rather overpay for a top C than settle for even a stellar winger at a bit of a bargain price.

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2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

First of all, in positing a Patches for Nuge deal in other threads, I've noted that EDM would have to add a quality prospect or some other inducement. 

 

Second, Nuge is just an example. The point is that the Habs should be looking to move Patches for a top-C (or failing that, I guess, a top-3 W) ho is significantly younger - at least if they can't sign Tavares. And adding another quality young FW is not a lateral move, because it retools the core for years to come.

Pacioretty isn’t core enough of a player for it to have a positive impact to get rid of him. We will notice his loss more than we will notice how we no longer have his “lack of effort”. He’s obviously part of the core but we need more in addition to him, not something in replace of him. On the other hand, I don’t agree that he’s a type of cancer that brings down the team simply because he is our captain and not performing.

 

I can only gather that people want to trade Pacioretty right now mostly because of his recent struggles. Although I’m not against moving him, I don’t agree that trading him is the only way to redefine the core and I don’t agree that he’s the only way we get value back.

 

RNH is leading the oilers in scoring? Great, so is Gallagher. We now have Pacioretty and Nugent Hopkins and the core is given a little shake. I don’t particularly want to get rid of Gallagher, but it is another option. 

 

I don’t see eye to eye with Bergevin but I do think Pacioretty, as well as Weber and Price can win a cup while together, on any given team. 

 

Price and Weber to a lesser extent have equally struggled this season. We can go on about how bad these players are or we can tend to agree that while the team may not be great on paper as a whole, these individual players also had uncharacteristic seasons themselves and the statistics will eventually even out, and can do so without a “change of scenery”. 

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6 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Pacioretty isn’t core enough of a player for it to have a positive impact to get rid of him. We will notice his loss more than we will notice how we no longer have his “lack of effort”. He’s obviously part of the core but we need more in addition to him, not something in replace of him. On the other hand, I don’t agree that he’s a type of cancer that brings down the team simply because he is our captain and not performing.

 

I can only gather that people want to trade Pacioretty right now mostly because of his recent struggles. Although I’m not against moving him, I don’t agree that trading him is the only way to redefine the core and I don’t agree that he’s the only way we get value back.

 

RNH is leading the oilers in scoring? Great, so is Gallagher. We now have Pacioretty and Nugent Hopkins and the core is given a little shake. I don’t particularly want to get rid of Gallagher, but it is another option. 

 

I don’t see eye to eye with Bergevin but I do think Pacioretty, as well as Weber and Price can win a cup while together, on any given team. 

 

Price and Weber to a lesser extent have equally struggled this season. We can go on about how bad these players are or we can tend to agree that while the team may not be great on paper as a whole, these individual players also had uncharacteristic seasons themselves and the statistics will eventually even out, and can do so without a “change of scenery”. 

I think they can win a cup together. To be honest the problem is we have a GM who builds his team like its the 90's and a coach who coach's like its the 90's. We need a management team and coaches that have been brought up in organizations    In this generation of hockey.  Thats why when I first heard his name in here I thought about it, and then more i think about the more I like the idea of Brodeur being named to run hockey operations here in Montreal. The blues have been bring him along nicely in the organization and he's been learning today's NHL as a management .  I just think he would be the perfect fit to run this team. 

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The same things you are saying about Brodeur now, are what was said about the Blackhawks assistant GM Marc Bergevin in 2012. 

 

Only Bergevin was actually management on a cup winning team.
Had more experience in 2012 than Brodeur has today. 


I'm not sure we have any idea what we'd be getting in Brodeur. 

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14 minutes ago, Commandant said:

The same things you are saying about Brodeur now, are what was said about the Blackhawks assistant GM Marc Bergevin in 2012. 

 

Only Bergevin was actually management on a cup winning team.
Had more experience in 2012 than Brodeur has today. 


I'm not sure we have any idea what we'd be getting in Brodeur. 

Maybe we would be getting less of an ego 🤔

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Hope is not a plan.

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5 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Hope is not a plan.

But a draft pick whether Sergachev plays more /less 40 games, Bergevin/Yzerman both hoped pick didn't change hands, so was part of plan.

 

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Brodeur fits a President role better. Well liked around the league, lots of experience with executives and players now in management, always had a good head on him. Remember that Avery messing with him got an NHL rule created (though the NHL's lava zones behind the net were made to basically stop him so maybe not) so he's a guy with a little bit of clout. He didn't have much to do with St. Louis and they gave him a serious job immediately.

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