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Bergevin......

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zumpano21    44
54 minutes ago, nihilz said:

Bergevin should fire JJ & Lacroix. A due shake up that would be merited and maybe necessary. Everyone might get shipshape real quick if the axe falls. 

 

Bailing the ocean with a bucket.

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xXx..CK..xXx    162
2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Good post.

 

I don't see 2015-16 as an apposite comparable, because Price was hurt for 2/3 of the season.

 

The really alarming thing is that apart from the first 20 games of 2016-17, this team has basically sucked since then even with Price healthy. That represent a MASSIVE regression from 2015-16, let alone 2014-15. I think the disaster of the Price-injured 2015-16 has worked to MB's advantage because fans have forgotten how promising the team looked in the two seasons before that. The drop off from 2015 is shocking and requires explanation.

 

I hate to say this, and I'm sure I'll trigger the usual tsunami of outrage, but one of the most defining differences between the 2015 team and the 2017 team is the replacement of Subban by Weber.

 

Let me explain. I don't think it's entirely coincidental that we rattled off that hot start in 2016-17 when Weber went on a crazy and unsustainable tear (8 goals in 20 games). Once he reverted back to his more normal production - 9 goals in the last 58 games, one goal in the playoffs - that's when the team as a whole started struggling. I'm NOT saying it's Shea Weber's fault per se; he has been very good, he's been Shea Weber, a minutes-munching behemoth. What I am suggesting is that Weber is a more limited player, especially when it comes to puck possession, transition, leading the rush, and running the offence from the back end, than PK Subban. And what I would further suggest is that a team with a fairly mediocre pack of FWs really needs a #1 defenceman who can transition, lead the rush, and manage the offence at an elite level, because our FWs just aren't good enough to do it themselves.

 

Otherwise put, I believe that - in direct contradiction to the BS propaganda emitted by the Bergevin regime - a defenceman with the profile of PK Subban is much more what this team needed than a defenceman with the profile of Weber. And I believe that that is a contributing factor to the absolutely pathetic offensive outcomes of the past 50 games. Offense starts at the back end. Weber has a tremendous shot, but he does NOT manage a team's offence. And without Subban, we have no one else who can do it at anything approaching PK's level.

 

And no - I'm not saying this is the only problem. I'm saying it's a significant contributing factor. If I'm right, that trade is the signature mistake of the Bergevin era and the one that will contribute the most to his eventual firing, assuming that this is in the cards.

The team last year was much more capable of competing than the one thus far assembled this season.

 

Obviously we did not win a cup but we were legitimately one move away from being a top tier contender. The main issue in my opinion was a weak trade deadline pool. Everyone wanted that elusive scorer but I do not believe that Hanzal, Eaves or Stafford were the answer and so I don't fault Bergevin so much for last year. I thought Radulov was a great move. This summer, the wheels fell off. I don't get into the Bergevin talk much but if one wants my opinion,  that seems to be his M.O. One season or off season he's done alright and the next that goes down the drain. It's back and forth. 

 

Last year's team without Subban was just as capable of winning the cup as many of the teams that P.K Subban was on. Sure, we had complaints about our offense but the same can be said for some previous seasons as well.

 

Long story short, I see the loss of Markov without replacement as being even more important than the loss of Subban. Subban was likely being Subban when he said it but he's been quoted as saying he was shocked when he heard we did not resign Markov and that he thought Markov was the best defenseman on the team even when he was there. "Everyone thought it was me because of the contract, but I always thought Marky was the best on our team". 

 

Subban is valuable but at least we got a player of value in return when we lost him. I understand your premise of puck movers but I've long believed that Subban was forced to do too much on the Habs. On one hand, he was held back by coaching but on the other hand, he had to try to overcompensate for our lack of offense at times, leading to extremely individualistic plays. I'm sure the same can be said for Weber. Although he was a presence that Nashville apparently misses, he wouldn't have to take on such a large role if he were still surrounded by some of the other defensemen in Nashville.

 

I really don't think it can be said that the team would have a better chance with one or the other. It's the supporting cast. Getting rid of Subban, Markov, Beaulieu and Sergachev? Now you're getting conversation out of me.

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DON    37
2 hours ago, zumpano21 said:

Anyone else feel that Habs management behaves more like a political body with entrenched, immobile attitudes and interests as compared to a franchise that will do whatever it takes to win?

Of course is partially is, primarily due to French insecurities in Quebec and that aint gonna change anytime soon; but of course is common knowledge.

So if Hab keep losing for extended period, here comes Patrick Roy, Pierre McGuire looking for Mgmt job, or maybe LaCarriere or Julien Brisbois to replace Bergy. And wont be any English dude no matter what resume is.

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PMAC    81

No, not as long as it is done in a professional manner, ie., not just before,  or during, a game. 

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PMAC    81
13 minutes ago, DON said:

Of course is partially is, primarily due to French insecurities in Quebec and that aint gonna change anytime soon; but of course is common knowledge.

So if Hab keep losing for extended period, here comes Patrick Roy, Pierre McGuire looking for Mgmt job, or maybe LaCarriere or Julien Brisbois to replace Bergy. And wont be any English dude no matter what resume is.

Annnnd, that means we are going to have a hard time moving forward 

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sbhatt    24

Sergachev has scored his first two goals in the NHL tonight, to go along with 4 assists thus far. 

 

Drouin has been our best player, but god####ingdamnit Bergevin...a package not involving the exact type of Dman we desperately need was what you needed to pull off in that trade.

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zumpano21    44
8 minutes ago, sbhatt said:

Sergachev has scored his first two goals in the NHL tonight, to go along with 4 assists thus far. 

 

Drouin has been our best player, but god####ingdamnit Bergevin...a package not involving the exact type of Dman we desperately need was what you needed to pull off in that trade.

 

Was going to mention the same.

 

And if any of you want to remember what a good team looks like, watch TBay. They are scary good this year.

 

Lets pluck Stevie Y for the job.

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sbhatt    24
15 minutes ago, zumpano21 said:

Lets pluck Stevie Y for the job.

 

 

But but but....he doesn't speak french....the HORROR! 

 

Seriously, if Molson doesn't grow the balls to hire the best GM and coach availiable regardless of language, and tell the insecure Francos to go F themselves if they don't like it, this team will never have the sort of resurgence the Leafs are experiencing right now. 

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zumpano21    44
4 minutes ago, sbhatt said:

 

 

But but but....he doesn't speak french....the HORROR! 

 

Seriously, if Molson doesn't grow the balls to hire the best GM and coach availiable regardless of language, and tell the insecure Francos to go F themselves if they don't like it, this team will never have the sort of resurgence the Leafs are experiencing right now. 

 

As fans, we may underestimate how much sway we have in these decisions.

 

A groundswell of opposition to the old boys network via social media could really play a hand in these decisions.

 

We need something drastically different a la Golden State Warriors.

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DON    37
1 hour ago, zumpano21 said:

 

As fans, we may underestimate how much sway we have in these decisions.

 

A groundswell of opposition to the old boys network via social media could really play a hand in these decisions.

 

We need something drastically different a la Golden State Warriors.

Like several all-star forwards to start with.

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sbhatt    24
58 minutes ago, DON said:

Like several all-star forwards to start with.

 

 

No kidding...if only we could attract the top free agents like Golden State does.

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Stogey24    280
8 hours ago, sbhatt said:

 

 

No kidding...if only we could attract the top free agents like Golden State does.

If only we didn't have a salary cap...

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DON    37
1 hour ago, Stogey24 said:

If only we didn't have a salary cap...

Was no salary cap in late 90s and early 2000's was there and no cups? And teams invested highly in all-star forwards like Hawks-Pens have done quite well in cap era.

Screw the high paid defense and high paid goalie and load up front seems to be better way to try and go.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, DON said:

Was no salary cap in late 90s and early 2000's was there and no cups? And teams invested highly in all-star forwards like Hawks-Pens have done quite well in cap era.

Screw the high paid defense and high paid goalie and load up front seems to be better way to try and go.

 

 

 

Maybe, but Chicago had a superb d-corps during it Cup runs. What seems not to work anymore is the 'ride a superstar goalie all the way' model. Last team to do that seems to have been NJ - ?

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illWill    435

There aren't any definitive team models that win Cups, it's all about match ups and hot streaks. As far as having a superstar goalie go all the way, it's just more likely that one would play at an elite level for the duration of the playoffs, but above average goalies can certainly do that as well. 

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Just now, illWill said:

There aren't any definitive team models that win Cups, it's all about match ups and hot streaks. As far as having a superstar goalie go all the way, it's just more likely that one would play at an elite level for the duration of the playoffs, but above average goalies can certainly do that as well. 

 

That's the trouble. The odds are that sooner or later a team riding Price will meet a team with a lesser goalie who is on a hot streak, thus neutralizing the 'Price advantage.' At that point the rest of your team has to be good enough to beat the rest of the other team. So as I see it, the goalie can certainly be the cornerstone, but he can't be a *substitute* for a fundamentally strong lineup. Which is how the Habs use Price.

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illWill    435
1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

That's the trouble. The odds are that sooner or later a team riding Price will meet a team with a lesser goalie who is on a hot streak, thus neutralizing the 'Price advantage.' At that point the rest of your team has to be good enough to beat the rest of the other team. So as I see it, the goalie can certainly be the cornerstone, but he can't be a *substitute* for a fundamentally strong lineup. Which is how the Habs use Price.

 

Which is why I dislike the thought of having 10.5 million tied up in the goaltender position for 8 years. Even though I believe Price is worth that amount on the market, it really does handcuff a team from strengthening itself in other areas. And especially in an organization like the Habs who seemingly develop studs in net all the time, it would be beneficial for them to capture some sort of lightning in a bottle with a McNevin or Lindrgren during a playoff run, while spending Price's money elsewhere.  

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REV-G    21
20 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Good post.

 

I don't see 2015-16 as an apposite comparable, because Price was hurt for 2/3 of the season.

 

The really alarming thing is that apart from the first 20 games of 2016-17, this team has basically sucked since then even with Price healthy. That represent a MASSIVE regression from 2015-16, let alone 2014-15. I think the disaster of the Price-injured 2015-16 has worked to MB's advantage because fans have forgotten how promising the team looked in the two seasons before that. The drop off from 2015 is shocking and requires explanation.

 

I hate to say this, and I'm sure I'll trigger the usual tsunami of outrage, but one of the most defining differences between the 2015 team and the 2017 team is the replacement of Subban by Weber.

 

Let me explain. I don't think it's entirely coincidental that we rattled off that hot start in 2016-17 when Weber went on a crazy and unsustainable tear (8 goals in 20 games). Once he reverted back to his more normal production - 9 goals in the last 58 games, one goal in the playoffs - that's when the team as a whole started struggling. I'm NOT saying it's Shea Weber's fault per se; he has been very good, he's been Shea Weber, a minutes-munching behemoth. What I am suggesting is that Weber is a more limited player, especially when it comes to puck possession, transition, leading the rush, and running the offence from the back end, than PK Subban. And what I would further suggest is that a team with a fairly mediocre pack of FWs really needs a #1 defenceman who can transition, lead the rush, and manage the offence at an elite level, because our FWs just aren't good enough to do it themselves.

 

Otherwise put, I believe that - in direct contradiction to the BS propaganda emitted by the Bergevin regime - a defenceman with the profile of PK Subban is much more what this team needed than a defenceman with the profile of Weber. And I believe that that is a contributing factor to the absolutely pathetic offensive outcomes of the past 50 games. Offense starts at the back end. Weber has a tremendous shot, but he does NOT manage a team's offence. And without Subban, we have no one else who can do it at anything approaching PK's level.

 

And no - I'm not saying this is the only problem. I'm saying it's a significant contributing factor. If I'm right, that trade is the signature mistake of the Bergevin era and the one that will contribute the most to his eventual firing, assuming that this is in the cards.

 

I think you have hit one nail right on the head. This week on Hockey Central at noon Doug McLean [former NHL coach and GM] said that Montreal's key problem as to why they are not scoring is because the backend is not getting the puck out or staring proper breakouts out of their own zone. He said this is key for Montreal and with their current defensive core he doesn't know if that can happen.

 

So CC your comments about PK and Weber are right on. This could be one of the big keys and if it is we are in big trouble because that isn't likely to change quickly unless MB goes and gets top 2 puck moving defensive man. 

 

At the beginning of the season or during training camp Bergevin said he thought this defence is better than last years. That's really concerning! 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, REV-G said:

 

I think you have hit one nail right on the head. This week on Hockey Central at noon Doug McLean [former NHL coach and GM] said that Montreal's key problem as to why they are not scoring is because the backend is not getting the puck out or staring proper breakouts out of their own zone. He said this is key for Montreal and with their current defensive core he doesn't know if that can happen.

 

So CC your comments about PK and Weber are right on. This could be one of the big keys and if it is we are in big trouble because that isn't likely to change quickly unless MB goes and gets top 2 puck moving defensive man. 

 

At the beginning of the season or during training camp Bergevin said he thought this defence is better than last years. That's really concerning! 

 

 

 

I respect XXx's rebuttal above. But I really don't think its coincidental that this team has basically sucked since Weber's 20-game explosion (at the start of 2016-17) dried up. Once he reverted to normal Weber production, the absence of Subban's puck-moving/offence management began to make itself felt. And it still is. That trade was a major mistake - doubly so since one of its supposed premises, that Weber's leadership would change the culture of the team, has transparently failed to materialize.

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Commandant    635
1 hour ago, illWill said:

 

Which is why I dislike the thought of having 10.5 million tied up in the goaltender position for 8 years. Even though I believe Price is worth that amount on the market, it really does handcuff a team from strengthening itself in other areas. And especially in an organization like the Habs who seemingly develop studs in net all the time, it would be beneficial for them to capture some sort of lightning in a bottle with a McNevin or Lindrgren during a playoff run, while spending Price's money elsewhere.  

 

For a team with 8.5 million in cap space at the start of this season, and Tomas Plekanec coming off the books at the end of the season.... Price's contract is not an issue. 

 

His % of cap hit, is the same as Lundqvist, when Lundqvist signed his deal.  It didn't stop the Rangers building around him, and reaching the finals. 

 

Price getting fair value is the least of our concerns.... we had three choices... 1) give him a big extension, 2) trade him as a rental for pennies on the dollar, 3) let him walk as a free agent. 

 

We picked the right choice. 

 

Its Bergevin's inability to find scoring... its his screwup re: Markov... its a number of other things that are concerns going forward, not price's money IMO.

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xXx..CK..xXx    162

It's a mixed bag for me. I completely understand  the need for puck moving defensemen in this day and age but a few things come to mind. Considering it is an apparent weakness of ours, I would like to believe the coaching staff are aware of it and could implement a specific style of breakout for this team. What I noticed at the Kings game is that it was our forwards who struggled to get the puck out against the heavy forecheck. I also noticed some successful breakouts with players like Byron skating behind our net and then taking it up the ice on his own. 

 

I've also long heard talk about Price's puck handling skills and how he's basically a third defenseman out there. I would like to think that he could generally help insulate this weakness. 

 

Since Price can't really skate up with the puck, I guess it's true that that's wherein lays the problem. I think our defensemen should try to gain a little bit of confidence and skate with the puck more rather than try breakout pass after pass. They may not be the quickest but from what I've seen they have players who do know how to control the puck. Even Morrow can skate with the puck.

 

Alright, maybe we do need some smooth skating defensemen :lol:

 

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illWill    435
2 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

For a team with 8.5 million in cap space at the start of this season, and Tomas Plekanec coming off the books at the end of the season.... Price's contract is not an issue. 

 

His % of cap hit, is the same as Lundqvist, when Lundqvist signed his deal.  It didn't stop the Rangers building around him, and reaching the finals. 

 

Price getting fair value is the least of our concerns.... we had three choices... 1) give him a big extension, 2) trade him as a rental for pennies on the dollar, 3) let him walk as a free agent. 

 

We picked the right choice. 

 

Its Bergevin's inability to find scoring... its his screwup re: Markov... its a number of other things that are concerns going forward, not price's money IMO.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible to have success with a large % of cap space on a goalie, I'm saying that it is less likely because you can get elite goaltending from most guys in the league for a certain period of time. It's just more likely that an elite goalie will put it together during that time than an average goalie. 

 

I have no problem resigning Price at all, it was THE only option at that time. 

 

The Markov non-resigning is the #1 thing that I did not like under the Bergevin regime. He is a life long Hab and has been the most important player to this team for a good chunk of his career. A very underrated player and one that we desperately need...and there was more than enough money for him

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Commandant    635
1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

It's a mixed bag for me. I completely understand  the need for puck moving defensemen in this day and age but a few things come to mind. Considering it is an apparent weakness of ours, I would like to believe the coaching staff are aware of it and could implement a specific style of breakout for this team. What I noticed at the Kings game is that it was our forwards who struggled to get the puck out against the heavy forecheck. I also noticed some successful breakouts with players like Byron skating behind our net and then taking it up the ice on his own. 

 

I've also long heard talk about Price's puck handling skills and how he's basically a third defenseman out there. I would like to think that he could generally help insulate this weakness. 

 

Since Price can't really skate up with the puck, I guess it's true that that's wherein lays the problem. I think our defensemen should try to gain a little bit of confidence and skate with the puck more rather than try breakout pass after pass. They may not be the quickest but from what I've seen they have players who do know how to control the puck. Even Morrow can skate with the puck.

 

Alright, maybe we do need some smooth skating defensemen :lol:

 

 

I think the lack of being able to skate with the puck is a problem, but its been over-inflated too. 

 

Let's face it.  Bergevin ####ed up in not getting puck moving replacement for Markov.  At this point, Mete is a god send to this team and an absolute saviour.  We don't realize how lucky we are that a 19 year old is saving our bacon in this area.  It should not have to be this way, but at this point he's playing like a first pairing puck mover.  He's not Markov on the Power Play, but he's been as good at ES as markov was last year, and thats heavy praise. 

 

On the second pair, Petry can move the puck.  He is inconsistent, but that's why he's a 2nd pair guy and not a first pair guy.  He's good in the role.  Looked great against the Leafs and the Kings, looked mediocre against the Sharks.  Still the second pair has a guy who can move the puck. 

 

The problem lies in the third pair.... Streit was a total failure.  Morrow can move the puck but he sucks at other aspects of the game. The team doesn't think Jerabek is ready (I disagree, but digress)... Schlemko could stabilize a pair with Davidson/Benn as the right D, but is hurt.  Here is the main issue on the defence right now IMO. 

 

 

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The bigger issue on defence is that the team relies on Shea Weber to lead the defence in offensive production and offensive creation.

 

Last year he had an amazing start, only to finish the season with his worst offensive numbers since he became a top four defenceman. And now it's looking like if he doesn't find another hot streak, he's going to finish as a 25-30 point defenceman playing 25+ minutes per game. Maybe it gets better, but it would be impressive if he got to 40 points this season.

 

This is a problem. Unless Mete ends up an offensive dynamo, this team won't produce much at all on the backend. 

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DON    37
2 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

I think the lack of being able to skate with the puck is a problem, but its been over-inflated too. 

 

Let's face it.  Bergevin ####ed up in not getting puck moving replacement for Markov.  At this point, Mete is a god send to this team and an absolute saviour.  We don't realize how lucky we are that a 19 year old is saving our bacon in this area.  It should not have to be this way, but at this point he's playing like a first pairing puck mover.  He's not Markov on the Power Play, but he's been as good at ES as markov was last year, and thats heavy praise. 

 

On the second pair, Petry can move the puck.  He is inconsistent, but that's why he's a 2nd pair guy and not a first pair guy.  He's good in the role.  Looked great against the Leafs and the Kings, looked mediocre against the Sharks.  Still the second pair has a guy who can move the puck. 

 

The problem lies in the third pair.... Streit was a total failure.  Morrow can move the puck but he sucks at other aspects of the game. The team doesn't think Jerabek is ready (I disagree, but digress)... Schlemko could stabilize a pair with Davidson/Benn as the right D, but is hurt.  Here is the main issue on the defence right now IMO. 

 

 

Who did you piss off with all the downvotes?

 

Anyways, "not getting puck moving replacement for Markov" YET isn't helping; but again, the 3rd pairing's play is really hurting the team every game so far. Is Benn a slow starter? I really hope so and Jerabek or Vegas seem the best hope to bolster the d, barring shooting for a high paid high quality puck-mover.

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