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REV-G

Bergevin......

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REV-G    16

One win....8 forwards out of 12 with only 1 point.....weak defensemen......already one summer signing outright released.....I didn't bother looking up goals for versus goals against......I don't need to list too much...we all know.

 

Is it too early to judge, complain? Maybe, maybe not. If we just judge this season, it's probably too early. But things have been happening for many months. It's also been 5 years for M. Bergevin, so really it's not too early. 

 

I read this morning that since January 2016 our record is 23-23-4.....our goals/game is 2.12....PP is 14%.....shooting % is 6.9%. 

Did Bergevin address the glaring low scoring over the summer. I like Drouin but he's not enough. We needed more. 

We lost both Markov and Radulov....on his watch.

 

But what really bothers me is what Bergevin did, and didn't do, this summer compared to what was available and what other teams did.

 

Ron Hainsey is on Toronto's top pairing I believe. He'd look good for us right now.

Patrick Marleau has scored more than any of our guys. He'd look good in our lineup right now.

Bergevin signed Mark Street when he knew Markov wasn't coming back?? 

Ales Hemsky......Jagr was available. I have a feeling Jagr will score while Ales......fourth line or a healthy scratch?

 

Unless there is a sudden and huge turn around, I think we may be seeing a glimpse of what this season may be.

Hopefully we'll be fighting for a playoff spot and not totally out of it by then.

 

If this season goes south and this is Begevin's team, does Molson let him begin a rebuild or make the changes that need to be made.

Sadly I have to say, I hope not.

 

At this point, after 5 years, I'm really disappointed in what Bergevin has put together. He's made a few good moves, Byron, Denault, but so many of what I believe are bad choices and bad decisions.  

 

I hate to say it because I don't like change, but if things don't improve quickly, I think it's time for change! 

 

 

 

 

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habsFan1986    4

So if MB gets fired today who replaces him????

 

The problem here is we will never be able to have a top GM because to work in Montreal you have to be from Montreal. Or you get run out of town as soon as you fall.

 

If MB worked on any other hockey team he would be fired by now.  But because he is from Montreal he gets a pass. 

 

I was a big fan of MB when we hired him. He was making some great move's. But something happened over the last 2 1/2 years, not sure what it is but he just can't seem to do anything right any more.

 

I hate to say it but we change the coach....same old result. We change the on ice product...same old result. We need a new identity and a new direction with this team. That will only come if we clean house🏡.

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It's that TSN graphic of demonstrating 50 games of total suckage that is really unsettling - more more so than a crappy few games to start the season.

 

I don't think you can fire him yet, however. Ownership can't be panicky. I'd wait about 20 games. If we're still struggling, then yes, start making calls and looking around. And whoever you hire has to be someone who understands player development, first and foremost.

 

If the team turns it around, makes the playoffs, and does its usual one-and-done thing, I would fire him then. My argument would be that he had six years to build a contender and failed.

 

I too liked MB at the start. Based on his c.v. (and his self-presentation), I thought, here we have a modern, forward-looking GM who understands today's game. But it turns out that he is the opposite of that: an old-school, hidebound guy who runs things according to the demands of his own old-school ego. Prattles on about 'leadership' as if that is a substitute for actual excellence. Hires his buddies then refuses to fire them when any normal GM would do so. Lets Markov walk, hurting the team, rather than swallow his pride. Trades Subban for no reason other than his ego and that of a coach who should have been fired at that point anyway. Fails to think about succession planning for key veteran Plekanec. Fails to address chronic and longstanding roster holes. Yeah, he's made some decent moves. Unfortunately they are outweighed by his bad ones. This is a guy who inherited a very promising core and has quite transparently and wretchedly failed to do anything with it. Pathetic.

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Link67    108
10 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

It's that TSN graphic of demonstrating 50 games of total suckage that is really unsettling - more more so than a crappy few games to start the season.

 

I don't think you can fire him yet, however. Ownership can't be panicky. I'd wait about 20 games. If we're still struggling, then yes, start making calls and looking around. And whoever you hire has to be someone who understands player development, first and foremost.

 

If the team turns it around, makes the playoffs, and does its usual one-and-done thing, I would fire him then. My argument would be that he had six years to build a contender and failed.

 

I too liked MB at the start. Based on his c.v. (and his self-presentation), I thought, here we have a modern, forward-looking GM who understands today's game. But it turns out that he is the opposite of that: an old-school, hidebound guy who runs things according to the demands of his own old-school ego. Prattles on about 'leadership' as if that is a substitute for actual excellence. Hires his buddies then refuses to fire them when any normal GM would do so. Lets Markov walk, hurting the team, rather than swallow his pride. Trades Subban for no reason other than his ego and that of a coach who should have been fired at that point anyway. Fails to think about succession planning for key veteran Plekanec. Fails to address chronic and longstanding roster holes. Yeah, he's made some decent moves. Unfortunately they are outweighed by his bad ones. This is a guy who inherited a very promising core and has quite transparently and wretchedly failed to do anything with it. Pathetic.

 

 

I agree, at this point there is little a new GM can do to fix this, This team and its staff need to right the ship internally and if Bergevin can lend a hand with a solid transaction then great. But ultimately, if this team fails to make the playoffs or bows out in the first round again, you end it there. 

 

It has been long enough, and if there is no signs of taking steps forward then it is time to change the direction. That would give Bergevin his uncontested chance to save this season, and it would give his successor the chance to come in at the right time, come in through the door like a wind of change and have the ability to prepare for the draft, assess his roster, and plan his offseason of changes in his image and hopefully give this team a needed lift going into next season.

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zumpano21    42

It wouldn’t be so terrible if we actually had some prospects waiting in the wings. As it stands, MB sold the farm for junk bonds. This will be one of the worst performance years for the Habs franchise, ever.

 

He should be fired and replaced by the best person available. We can truly make a name for ourselves here and hire someone off the grid who brings a new understanding to running the franchise.  Speaking French is not the first qualification.

 

Lastly, we’ve been spinning our wheels since ‘93. It’s time to rebuild and do it right. Trade Price. Trade Weber and for f sakes trade Maxi Pad. Retain only youth with some skill and promise.

 

I’m out of patience and time for people placing bandaids on the Titanic’s hull.

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illWill    419

I think he will get a chance to fire some more bullets before he gets fired. I think that overall he has done a decent job, and if you look at each transaction independently from each other, he usually wins those. But it's not looking good at this point for Mr. Bergevin 

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habsFan1986    4
16 minutes ago, zumpano21 said:

It wouldn’t be so terrible if we actually had some prospects waiting in the wings. As it stands, MB sold the farm for junk bonds. This will be one of the worst performance years for the Habs franchise, ever.

 

He should be fired and replaced by the best person available. We can truly make a name for ourselves here and hire someone off the grid who brings a new understanding to running the franchise.  Speaking French is not the first qualification.

 

Lastly, we’ve been spinning our wheels since ‘93. It’s time to rebuild and do it right. Trade Price. Trade Weber and for f sakes trade Maxi Pad. Retain only youth with some skill and promise.

 

I’m out of patience and time for people placing bandaids on the Titanic’s hull.

Thats what gets me mad the most, is our lack of development of players since he has been here. Plus we could of gotten so much more for PK.  MB under sold him and it has set up back big time. 

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nihilz    29

I think because Markov was a foolish twit and didn't hire an agent. This team is in a tailspin. Schlemko being injured as well.

 

Bergevin is on final notice with me. He had a long leash. The leash runs out at trade deadline. That cap space is his ace in the hole. He better play this hand to perfection.

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DON    28

You and Geoffery have discussed this?

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huzer    56

Ya know, I used to think Bergy mortgaged the future. To look at that, though, you have to look at the prospect pool he inherited. Other than a home run draft year in 2007, the only 2 regular NHLers drafted prior to his arrival are Gallagher and Beaulieu. And heck, we all know what has happened with 2 out of 3 of the studs taken in 2007, Gainey dumped one, and Bergy the other. Granted, that can also speak to the failure of development, too. So from '08 through '11, 4 draft periods, that's a lot of wasted picks on players that would now be in their prime. From the Gauthier era, there is one player left on the current roster that he drafted (Gallagher), and from Gainey, 2 players, Patches and Price. Right now, Marky Mark has 4 of his drafted players playing for the big club. Gainey did draft a few guys that went on to play elsewhere, too.

 

I'm not a fan of how this past summer played out, and I'm tired of the "leadership, character, players that get you through the playoffs" schtick. I'm tired of the "too hard" to find a center and trying to fit square pegs into round holes. The public discussion on Galchenyuk and what position he was going to play. Thus far, it looks like his cheap vet signings from this summer aren't going to pan out. The reshaping of the defense doesn't look promising, although you can arguably say he manager to sign 2 of the UFA dmen that were at, or near, the top of the UFA crop for that year (Alzner and Petry).

 

The core is indeed getting older. People that viewed last year's trade of Subban meaning we were "all in" were wrong. It was a trade based on personality. Should we be all in considering the core? Arguably? But then neglecting to sign Markov and Radulov tosses the all in mentality out the window, for me at least. So it's been a past few years of conflicting signs from management, all in? Extensions to Desharnais, Plekanec, acquiring Weber. "Secret" rebuild? I have no clue what direction the team is going. It's a hodge podge of random parts.

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habsFan1986    4
37 minutes ago, huzer said:

Ya know, I used to think Bergy mortgaged the future. To look at that, though, you have to look at the prospect pool he inherited. Other than a home run draft year in 2007, the only 2 regular NHLers drafted prior to his arrival are Gallagher and Beaulieu. And heck, we all know what has happened with 2 out of 3 of the studs taken in 2007, Gainey dumped one, and Bergy the other. Granted, that can also speak to the failure of development, too. So from '08 through '11, 4 draft periods, that's a lot of wasted picks on players that would now be in their prime. From the Gauthier era, there is one player left on the current roster that he drafted (Gallagher), and from Gainey, 2 players, Patches and Price. Right now, Marky Mark has 4 of his drafted players playing for the big club. Gainey did draft a few guys that went on to play elsewhere, too.

 

I'm not a fan of how this past summer played out, and I'm tired of the "leadership, character, players that get you through the playoffs" schtick. I'm tired of the "too hard" to find a center and trying to fit square pegs into round holes. The public discussion on Galchenyuk and what position he was going to play. Thus far, it looks like his cheap vet signings from this summer aren't going to pan out. The reshaping of the defense doesn't look promising, although you can arguably say he manager to sign 2 of the UFA dmen that were at, or near, the top of the UFA crop for that year (Alzner and Petry).

 

The core is indeed getting older. People that viewed last year's trade of Subban meaning we were "all in" were wrong. It was a trade based on personality. Should we be all in considering the core? Arguably? But then neglecting to sign Markov and Radulov tosses the all in mentality out the window, for me at least. So it's been a past few years of conflicting signs from management, all in? Extensions to Desharnais, Plekanec, acquiring Weber. "Secret" rebuild? I have no clue what direction the team is going. It's a hodge podge of random parts.

Gally was draft under bob.

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huzer    56
3 minutes ago, habsFan1986 said:

Gally was draft under bob.

Gauthier was the GM for the draft in 2010. Gainey stepped down during the season.

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habsFan1986    4

I think MB lost direction of this team when he got away from speed and skill and started drafting guys with size. The problem is he is drafting big slow guys. We are seeing the results of it now.

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Chris    2

Big slow guys? 

 

I have no clue what you are talking about. The team has 3 forwards who weigh over 200 lbs. Those players play like they are are 150 lbs. 

 

All they have is small "skilled"" forwards. 

 

I agree that MB has lost his direction, his big thing was building through the draft and not much young talent coming up. 

 

Resigning and signing some bad contracts was another problem, 

 

Drafting IMO has been a problem. 

 

 

 

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Habsfan    58

I have to admit that I really don't like what I'm seeing right now from the Habs, but I won't panic just yet. We're only 7 games into the season. Plenty of time to turn things around, but if they're still struggling by the 20 game mark, then I think it might be time to make some drastic changes. The problem is what do you do?

 

Julien isn't the problem and I don't think any GM could  make a quick fix of this situation. Do we start unloading our older guys and try a rebuild? Trade Weber? MaxPac? Dare I say it...Trade Price??  Those would be some really drastic changes. It would signify that we're going with a rebuild, but I seriously doubt that'll happen!

 

We're just gonna have to wait and see. Maybe Bergevin can actually go and get the top line center we've been looking for since Vinny Damphousse left town? It won't be an easy thing to do! 

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habsFan1986    4
23 minutes ago, Habsfan said:

I have to admit that I really don't like what I'm seeing right now from the Habs, but I won't panic just yet. We're only 7 games into the season. Plenty of time to turn things around, but if they're still struggling by the 20 game mark, then I think it might be time to make some drastic changes. The problem is what do you do?

 

Julien isn't the problem and I don't think any GM could  make a quick fix of this situation. Do we start unloading our older guys and try a rebuild? Trade Weber? MaxPac? Dare I say it...Trade Price??  Those would be some really drastic changes. It would signify that we're going with a rebuild, but I seriously doubt that'll happen!

 

We're just gonna have to wait and see. Maybe Bergevin can actually go and get the top line center we've been looking for since Vinny Damphousse left town? It won't be an easy thing to do! 

If we are out of the plays by a lot after the all star✨break, then this management should look at being sellers at the deadline  and start with max.

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Seven games into 16-17: 6-0-0-1

Seven games into 17-18: 1-5-0-1

 

But let's look at something else.

 

Canadiens record in 2017 including 2016-2017 season, 2017 playoffs, and 2017-2018 season: 28-26-0-5

 

So what happened in 2017? What changed?

 

One could say Therrien being fired and Julien coming in, but that's a little silly. This was a problem prior to the firing of Therrien.

 

We could look at the first 15 games of the Habs in 2016-2017 (13-1-0-1) as an aberration that was never to be repeated, but maybe that's unfair. The Habs started strong in 15-16 as well (18-4-0-3 in their first 25) only for things to collapse and collapse hard. I keep reminding people they were still in a good playoff spot when 2015 was ending, but nobody cares about that. They just care they were already on their way down and nothing was to be done.

 

So how does the 2016 calendar year compare to 2017?

 

2016 (2015-16 season, 2016-2017 season): 39-32-0-9 in 80 games

2017 (2016-2017 season, 2017 playoffs, 2017-2018 season): 28-26-0-5 in 59 games

 

Maybe 21 games and 6 of them being playoffs makes a big difference, but it gets really interesting when the records look like they are going in the same direction.

 

For those curious

 

2015 (2014-15 season, 2015 playoffs, 2015-2016 season): 53-31-0-12 in 96 games.

 

So whatever was working with this team in 2015 hasn't worked in 2016, and has got worse in 2017.

 

I don't have all the answers, but that tells me the team is rotting to the core, and the players replaced haven't been better than the ones they replaced for the most part. And that all falls upon one man: Marc Bergevin.

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DON    28
1 hour ago, Habsfan said:

I have to admit that I really don't like what I'm seeing right now from the Habs, but I won't panic just yet. We're only 7 games into the season. Plenty of time to turn things around, but if they're still struggling by the 20 game mark, then I think it might be time to make some drastic changes. The problem is what do you do?

 

Julien isn't the problem and I don't think any GM could  make a quick fix of this situation. Do we start unloading our older guys and try a rebuild? Trade Weber? MaxPac? Dare I say it...Trade Price??  Those would be some really drastic changes. It would signify that we're going with a rebuild, but I seriously doubt that'll happen!

 

We're just gonna have to wait and see. Maybe Bergevin can actually go and get the top line center we've been looking for since Vinny Damphousse left town? It won't be an easy thing to do! 

Come on PANIC, is very popular at the moment!  And Leafs are in 1st, so they better plan that parade, as we all know Leafs (or Habs) doing great in first half of October means...

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3 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Seven games into 16-17: 6-0-0-1

Seven games into 17-18: 1-5-0-1

 

But let's look at something else.

 

Canadiens record in 2017 including 2016-2017 season, 2017 playoffs, and 2017-2018 season: 28-26-0-5

 

So what happened in 2017? What changed?

 

One could say Therrien being fired and Julien coming in, but that's a little silly. This was a problem prior to the firing of Therrien.

 

We could look at the first 15 games of the Habs in 2016-2017 (13-1-0-1) as an aberration that was never to be repeated, but maybe that's unfair. The Habs started strong in 15-16 as well (18-4-0-3 in their first 25) only for things to collapse and collapse hard. I keep reminding people they were still in a good playoff spot when 2015 was ending, but nobody cares about that. They just care they were already on their way down and nothing was to be done.

 

So how does the 2016 calendar year compare to 2017?

 

2016 (2015-16 season, 2016-2017 season): 39-32-0-9 in 80 games

2017 (2016-2017 season, 2017 playoffs, 2017-2018 season): 28-26-0-5 in 59 games

 

Maybe 21 games and 6 of them being playoffs makes a big difference, but it gets really interesting when the records look like they are going in the same direction.

 

For those curious

 

2015 (2014-15 season, 2015 playoffs, 2015-2016 season): 53-31-0-12 in 96 games.

 

So whatever was working with this team in 2015 hasn't worked in 2016, and has got worse in 2017.

 

I don't have all the answers, but that tells me the team is rotting to the core, and the players replaced haven't been better than the ones they replaced for the most part. And that all falls upon one man: Marc Bergevin.

 

Good post.

 

I don't see 2015-16 as an apposite comparable, because Price was hurt for 2/3 of the season.

 

The really alarming thing is that apart from the first 20 games of 2016-17, this team has basically sucked since then even with Price healthy. That represent a MASSIVE regression from 2015-16, let alone 2014-15. I think the disaster of the Price-injured 2015-16 has worked to MB's advantage because fans have forgotten how promising the team looked in the two seasons before that. The drop off from 2015 is shocking and requires explanation.

 

I hate to say this, and I'm sure I'll trigger the usual tsunami of outrage, but one of the most defining differences between the 2015 team and the 2017 team is the replacement of Subban by Weber.

 

Let me explain. I don't think it's entirely coincidental that we rattled off that hot start in 2016-17 when Weber went on a crazy and unsustainable tear (8 goals in 20 games). Once he reverted back to his more normal production - 9 goals in the last 58 games, one goal in the playoffs - that's when the team as a whole started struggling. I'm NOT saying it's Shea Weber's fault per se; he has been very good, he's been Shea Weber, a minutes-munching behemoth. What I am suggesting is that Weber is a more limited player, especially when it comes to puck possession, transition, leading the rush, and running the offence from the back end, than PK Subban. And what I would further suggest is that a team with a fairly mediocre pack of FWs really needs a #1 defenceman who can transition, lead the rush, and manage the offence at an elite level, because our FWs just aren't good enough to do it themselves.

 

Otherwise put, I believe that - in direct contradiction to the BS propaganda emitted by the Bergevin regime - a defenceman with the profile of PK Subban is much more what this team needed than a defenceman with the profile of Weber. And I believe that that is a contributing factor to the absolutely pathetic offensive outcomes of the past 50 games. Offense starts at the back end. Weber has a tremendous shot, but he does NOT manage a team's offence. And without Subban, we have no one else who can do it at anything approaching PK's level.

 

And no - I'm not saying this is the only problem. I'm saying it's a significant contributing factor. If I'm right, that trade is the signature mistake of the Bergevin era and the one that will contribute the most to his eventual firing, assuming that this is in the cards.

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illWill    419

Bergevin if this keeps up any longer

 

ErOBgrK.png

 

 

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zumpano21    42

Anyone else feel that Habs management behaves more like a political body with entrenched, immobile attitudes and interests as compared to a franchise that will do whatever it takes to win?

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hab29RETIRED    168
51 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Good post.

 

I don't see 2015-16 as an apposite comparable, because Price was hurt for 2/3 of the season.

 

The really alarming thing is that apart from the first 20 games of 2016-17, this team has basically sucked since then even with Price healthy. That represent a MASSIVE regression from 2015-16, let alone 2014-15. I think the disaster of the Price-injured 2015-16 has worked to MB's advantage because fans have forgotten how promising the team looked in the two seasons before that. The drop off from 2015 is shocking and requires explanation.

 

I hate to say this, and I'm sure I'll trigger the usual tsunami of outrage, but one of the most defining differences between the 2015 team and the 2017 team is the replacement of Subban by Weber.

 

Let me explain. I don't think it's entirely coincidental that we rattled off that hot start in 2016-17 when Weber went on a crazy and unsustainable tear (8 goals in 20 games). Once he reverted back to his more normal production - 9 goals in the last 58 games, one goal in the playoffs - that's when the team as a whole started struggling. I'm NOT saying it's Shea Weber's fault per se; he has been very good, he's been Shea Weber, a minutes-munching behemoth. What I am suggesting is that Weber is a more limited player, especially when it comes to puck possession, transition, leading the rush, and running the offence from the back end, than PK Subban. And what I would further suggest is that a team with a fairly mediocre pack of FWs really needs a #1 defenceman who can transition, lead the rush, and manage the offence at an elite level, because our FWs just aren't good enough to do it themselves.

 

Otherwise put, I believe that - in direct contradiction to the BS propaganda emitted by the Bergevin regime - a defenceman with the profile of PK Subban is much more what this team needed than a defenceman with the profile of Weber. And I believe that that is a contributing factor to the absolutely pathetic offensive outcomes of the past 50 games. Offense starts at the back end. Weber has a tremendous shot, but he does NOT manage a team's offence. And without Subban, we have no one else who can do it at anything approaching PK's level.

 

And no - I'm not saying this is the only problem. I'm saying it's a significant contributing factor. If I'm right, that trade is the signature mistake of the Bergevin era and the one that will contribute the most to his eventual firing, assuming that this is in the cards.

This year’s start and the last half of last year was what Weber was brought in to prevent.  His mythical leadership and price standing on his head was was supposed to get this rag dog lineup over the hump.

 

Two of the three players from the current era that should have retired as habs (Markov and Subban), we’re cut lose by MB, for his blood and guts dman (i.e. pre-lockout era slow footed) like Weber and Alzner.

 

i have to laugh at those who suggested that the D was going to be better this year because Alzner and Schlemko was an upgrade over Markov and emelin.  As unreliable as emelin was Markov was and probably still be better at his age as Alzner and Schlemko - yes I know Schlemko still has not played a game, but if this D is that bad without Schlemko, he isnt going to suddenly make them that much better - unless he suddenly becomes Bobby Orr.

 

its only two weeks in, but without the usual strong October, this team may not squeak into the playoffs like I had thought they would. 

 

Juliens lived up to my expectations- regression of Galchenyuk.  The only thing missing now from a total disaster is MB moving Galchenyuk for more  of his blood and guts type players.

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hab29RETIRED    168
8 minutes ago, zumpano21 said:

Anyone else feel that Habs management behaves more like a political body with entrenched, immobile attitudes and interests as compared to a franchise that will do whatever it takes to win?

Yes.  Pretty much since Corey forced the chelios trade to increase the québécois content. We were lucky to win another cup (most teams don’t recover from a horrible trade like that - we had a lot of depth than - unlike now when we have dumped Subban and Markov in successive years).  Corey’s next move led to the dark ages and that’s the same vibe I get under MB and the ball-less Molson. 

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nihilz    29

Bergevin should fire JJ & Lacroix. A due shake up that would be merited and maybe necessary. Everyone might get shipshape real quick if the axe falls. 

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DON    28
4 minutes ago, nihilz said:

Bergevin should fire JJ & Lacroix. A due shake up that would be merited and maybe necessary. Everyone might get shipshape real quick if the axe falls. 

A Gauthier-type move, no?

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