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The Habs Need a Better Backup


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3 hours ago, illWill said:

I like Price more than most, but the problem that I have is his salary cap hit starting next season. I think that a goaltender that makes much less who performs a bit below Price at 10.5 million, has much more value to the overall team. That's the thing in a salary cap world, we don't just value players based on their on ice performance anymore, there is a number attached to them which increases or decrease their value. I'd rather have a Gibson, Talbot, Valisilevsky or Murray at 4 million or under than even the best goalie in the world at 10.5. If Charlie Lindgren can develop into one of those types of goalies I would much rather keep him during that time before he gets paid the big bucks, and spend the remaining money elsewhere. The return on similar goalies as Commandant pointed out above are for futures, not immediate help. I don't want the Habs to be in the business of developing world class goaltenders for other organizations, and then blowing the draft picks like they have been. 

 

The best part, in my opinion, about having a Gibson, Vasilevskiy or Murray are (were) the fact that those teams have also had solid backups. Gibson has Murray, Vasilevskiy has Budaj and Murray had Marc Andre Fleury during their cup run, or vice versa. In my opinion, none of Tampa Bay or Anaheim this year or Pittsburgh last year go anywhere without such a 1-2 punch. Pittsburgh used it to change the momentum in a series they were being outplayed and I am convinced that Budaj and more likely Miller will play relatively important roles for their squads this season. Miller already has. 

 

Allotting 10.5 million to your starting goaltender does somewhat inhibit how much should be spent on backup goaltending. Sure some of the goalies you listed make 4-6 million but it also allows them to dish out 2 million for a decent backup.  The cap will go up in theory and so while 10.5 looks big now, in a few years it may just be the perfect amount for a goalie of Price's caliber.

 

The issue I have with devoting 10.5 Million to a goalie rather than 4-5 million is not that it's too much to devote to a goalie when we need quality players up front. It's more along the lines of the reality that it forces the team to rely on the starting goaltender to a heavy extent and make questionable calls when it comes to the team's goaltending. It's changed a little bit with Julien, but there have been so many unique decisions made as a result of Price being Price. Last year, Therrien had to "fear" pulling Price even though it would have been the correct decision and then there were situations like leaving in Montoya for 10 goals against Columbus. Our leader in Price has such a unique and strict schedule and it's as though he needs special treatment. I repeat that in the game against Columbus last year, Price probably wouldn't have been ready to play even if Montoya got injured. He rarely takes a day off but when he does it's so scheduled that the team seemingly cannot adjust to the moment. I don't want to get rid of Price, and I think the cap hit is actually fine, but I do wish we could have a backup goaltender who could either take over when the going gets tough or help push him to excel. This seems to be unrealistic with a goalie like Price and as fans have stated a goalie like Montoya does seem to be the "perfect backup" because he is so accepting of the role. 

 

On another note, Lindgren gets the start tonight for a second game in a row. 

 

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Actually, I agree. The 1993 team has gone down in history as an average team elevated by a brilliant goaltender. I think I've even read Muller saying something of the sort in an interview. This is poppycock. That team was #1 overall - this in a year when Roy had a pretty middling regular season - until a late-season skid moved it a few spots down the standings. It had a superb mix of elite young talent and excellent veterans, and was only under-valued because it lacked a sublime offensive superstar (this being the Mario/jagr/Gretzky era). What Roy did was put it over the edge.

 

What I'm also pretty confident of, though, is that Price - unlike Roy in that era - is unlikely to outclass his opposite number over four straight series. Sooner or later, we run into a goalie who is playing close enough to Price's level as to neutralize the 'Price advantage.' At the point, we absolutely need to have a team that can win a series against strong teams on its own merits - which, as you say, we haven't had even once in the Price era. But if we're planning on winning a Cup (a fanciful scenario given that the team is run by a dumb-bell) it cannot be on the assumption that we have the clear-cut best-performing goalie each round for four rounds. Historically, Price either gets hurt or runs into a goalie who is playing at his level. So we can't pencil in the 'Price Advantage' as sustaining us over an entire playoff run.

 

And maybe the whole premise is unfair. After all, Crosby has had series where he's struggled and his team has still gone on to win. Maybe the Roy/Dryden '71 scenario is untenable or such a historical rarity that we need to forget about it and recognize that one specific player hardly ever represents The Edge over an entire playoff.

 

I think it's entirely possible for the Oilers to win a cup in large part due to McDavid and I think it's entirely possible for the Habs to win a cup in large part due to Price.  The issue with this train of though lays with expectations. In my memory, there has actually only been one season where Carey Price held an aura above all others in the league. This was 2014-15 when he had 9 shutouts and below a 2.00 GAA, although he has had other good years. The point is that if Carey Price reaches the level he did in 2014-15 for an entire playoff run, it's likely that the Habs could win a cup just because of him. In that season, he demonstrated a level above any other goaltender. 

 

I completely agree that we have yet to see this come to fruition during the playoffs, but the possibility is there. Sustaining it over 4 rounds is perhaps a little bit exaggerated, but if he can play lights out in general, including the final series and we win the cup, it should be enough of a consideration. Would I expect this to happen in dynastic fashion with the Habs winning 5 cups in a row? Likely not. But Price only needs to get hot by his standards in one season for the Canadiens to possibly win a cup because of him.

 

It's become an accepted theory that "any goalie can get hot" and match Price but more often than not, this shouldn't be true. Quite often it's not that the opposing goaltender was equal to Price, it's sincerely that the players in front of him made the other goalie look good to a certain extent. For that reason, we do need to ice a team in front of him, of course, but he can certainly be the main reason the Habs win a cup. We've just yet to see it. 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Actually, I agree. The 1993 team has gone down in history as an average team elevated by a brilliant goaltender. I think I've even read Muller saying something of the sort in an interview. This is poppycock. That team was #1 overall - this in a year when Roy had a pretty middling regular season - until a late-season skid moved it a few spots down the standings. It had a superb mix of elite young talent and excellent veterans, and was only under-valued because it lacked a sublime offensive superstar (this being the Mario/jagr/Gretzky era). What Roy did was put it over the edge.

 

What I'm also pretty confident of, though, is that Price - unlike Roy in that era - is unlikely to outclass his opposite number over four straight series. Sooner or later, we run into a goalie who is playing close enough to Price's level as to neutralize the 'Price advantage.' At the point, we absolutely need to have a team that can win a series against strong teams on its own merits - which, as you say, we haven't had even once in the Price era. But if we're planning on winning a Cup (a fanciful scenario given that the team is run by a dumb-bell) it cannot be on the assumption that we have the clear-cut best-performing goalie each round for four rounds. Historically, Price either gets hurt or runs into a goalie who is playing at his level. So we can't pencil in the 'Price Advantage' as sustaining us over an entire playoff run.

 

And maybe the whole premise is unfair. After all, Crosby has had series where he's struggled and his team has still gone on to win. Maybe the Roy/Dryden '71 scenario is untenable or such a historical rarity that we need to forget about it and recognize that one specific player hardly ever represents The Edge over an entire playoff.

The 86 and 93 teams had other good players.  But like Dryden before him in 71’, Roy stole critical must win games for us when he needed to, to get us through a series.  Price hasn’t been able to do that yet (ie.game 7 OT against the Bruins). The year he looked like he was going to get us there a Kreider knocked him out.

 

grant Fuhr had a lousy GAA and played behind a loaded Edmonton team,but the difference between him and Moog was that Fuhr would make the critical game saving save when it was required.

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23 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

The 86 and 93 teams had other good players.  But like Dryden before him in 71’, Roy stole critical must win games for us when he needed to, to get us through a series.  Price hasn’t been able to do that yet (ie.game 7 OT against the Bruins). The year he looked like he was going to get us there a Kreider knocked him out.

 

grant Fuhr had a lousy GAA and played behind a loaded Edmonton team,but the difference between him and Moog was that Fuhr would make the critical game saving save when it was required.

 

Well except for the fact that Moog made those saves on the first cup win, and Ranford made those saves on the fifth. ... 

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33 minutes ago, illWill said:

niqkQCa.jpg

 

 

 

Yes, I'm in a long term committed relationship with Carey Price, but that doesn't mean I can't think about other goalies

 

:lol:

 

And while we're reminiscing, we should remember that for all of Roy's greatness, he *was* out-goaltended by Andy Moog in multiple and agonizing series losses to the hated Bruins. So, pobody's nerfect

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Guest Stogey24
28 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

:lol:

 

And while we're reminiscing, we should remember that for all of Roy's greatness, he *was* out-goaltended by Andy Moog in multiple and agonizing series losses to the hated Bruins. So, pobody's nerfect

Speak for yourself 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

:lol:

 

And while we're reminiscing, we should remember that for all of Roy's greatness, he *was* out-goaltended by Andy Moog in multiple and agonizing series losses to the hated Bruins. So, pobody's nerfect

The Bruins and specifically Neely was Roy’s kryptonite and moog was the habs kryptonite since his days with the oilers.  I still remember the 81playoff series when I think it was us finishing #2 or #3 against the oilers who finished #15 or #14 and the CBC  didn’t televise the series in Calgary, so I listened to the French broadcast on CBC radio - not knowing French.  All I kept hearing was Bellarai Andy moog, although at the time I thought they were saying  “handy” moog, having no clue who he was. I think his success against us is why we ended up signing him.

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2 hours ago, illWill said:

niqkQCa.jpg

 

 

 

Yes, I'm in a long term committed relationship with Carey Price, but that doesn't mean I can't think about other goalies

 

You can peruse the menu, you just can't eat anything.

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Guest Stogey24
15 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

You might be in love with steak and lobster from the keg, but now and then an A&W burger tastes pretty good.

You always regret it when your done though 

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2 hours ago, Trizzak said:

 

You can peruse the menu, you just can't eat anything.

 

Maybe it's just me, but that is definitely NOT the vibe I'm getting from "Price" in that picture :B) "Habs fan" is about to get his balls fed to him with a fork

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