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Trizzak

Playoffs or bust?

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Trizzak    483

It's a question, not a statement.

 

The team also had an elite goalie signed til 25-26 (to a contract not easily tradeable), a #1 defensemen signed til 25-26 (to a contract not easily tradeable), and are currently 2 points out of a playoff spot...

 

"Playoffs!"

 

But the team has obvious holes and arguably bottom-5 prospect depth in dire need of top-end talent everywhere. The team is top 3 in average shots per game, but 2nd last in goals-for. Depth at center is non-existent. The defense can, at best, be described as a hot mess...

 

"Bust!"

 

And while I expect opinions to vary as often as a winning streak or a losing streak, the question remains... in 17-18 are you playoffs? or bust?

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Trizzak    483

And just to add context to the playoff situation this year, the Habs don't need to outperform Carolina, New York x 2, Pittsburgh, Washingon, New Jersey, or Columbus to make the playoffs... they only need to outperform Detroit, Boston, Ottawa, and Florida. to grab the #3 spot in the Atlantic. 

 

Detroit - is in 3rd place, have 9 players with NTC's, have a worse defense squad than Montreal, 5 picks in the first 3 rounds, less than zero cap space, 1 UFA trade chip. Verdict: can't really add for their playoff run, this is basically their team til the end of the season... basically their team next season too.

 

Boston - 1 point out of 3rd and have games in hand, are in a mild bit of injury trouble, an iffy cap situation depending on that injury trouble, an underperforming #1 goalie, 1 UFA trade chip. Verdict: Probably in the best position out of the 5 to make a playoff push.

 

Ottawa - 2 points out of 3rd place and have games in hand, plenty of deadline cap space, no good UFA trade chips, no first or second round pick this year, already blew their load getting Matt Duchene. Verdict: Will make a push right to the end, but might not be willing to make any more moves.

 

Florida - 3 points out of 3rd place and have one game in hand, plenty of cap space, no key UFA trade chips, a few assets to deal. Verdict: This is the organization that gave Las Vegas 45 goals for a 4th round pick, so who the #### knows what they're going to do the rest of this season. 

 

Montreal - 2 points out of 3rd place with no games in hand, a downright absurd amount of cap space for a major market organization, 1 UFA trade chip, little prospect depth to deal, 5* picks in the first 3 rounds. Verdict: ?????? 

 

Also of note: none of these teams fighting for 3rd in the Atlantic currently have a positive goal-differential...

 

*5 picks assuming Sergachev plays 40 games for Tampa. 16 games to go.

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Trizzak    483

Adding context to busting is a little more concise:

 

 

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My worry is that Price stands on his head and we do push in to the playoffs. We loose in the first round and MB claims some sore of victory and in his presser we get the puck luck and anything can happen in the playoffs talk. Nothing gets properly addressed and we find ourselves in the same position for years to come.

 

If we crap out then changes will be made - necessary changes.

 

I don't want this team to be mediocre for the next 8 years while MB plays his whack a mole trying to fill holes all the while the real core issues don't get addressed.

 

I think this team needs a deep cutting and semi rebuild and that won't happen if we squeak in to the playoffs.

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alfredoh2009    13

Bust, but still hoping CP31 can get hot and make a miracle happen.

 

i think this year they will execute their retool plan, re-shaping the team to CJ and establishing his system. If they improve so much by the trade deadline to take a run they will spen their cap space for the missing pieces

but my feeling is that they are preparing for a big splash in next year's free agent market, with Pleks coming off the payroll and the stashed cap space and draft picks

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illWill    431

I'm thinking about throwing $100 on the Habs to win the Cup at 40-1 odds. Not that I think that they will necessarily win, but I think there's value in that bet. 

 

There's lots of season left. This team has either looked awful and lost or great and lost, but yet are only a few points out. A correction in the statistics over a full season should result in more wins. But to me that cap space is the real wild card for how this season will play out....

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4 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

My worry is that Price stands on his head and we do push in to the playoffs. We loose in the first round and MB claims some sore of victory and in his presser we get the puck luck and anything can happen in the playoffs talk. Nothing gets properly addressed and we find ourselves in the same position for years to come.

 

If we crap out then changes will be made - necessary changes.

 

I don't want this team to be mediocre for the next 8 years while MB plays his whack a mole trying to fill holes all the while the real core issues don't get addressed.

 

I think this team needs a deep cutting and semi rebuild and that won't happen if we squeak in to the playoffs.

 

This is my view as well.

 

It makes for a very strange experience - never before have I felt ambivalent about the prospect of the Habs doing well. But I hate the way a good chunk of fans are already refocusing and buying into the team's narrative: hey, maybe if all goes well, we can make the playoffs and then anything can happen! This is year 6 of the tenure of a GM who inherited a nucleus that should have been turned into a clear-cut Cup contender by now. Here we are still on the old "anything can happen" mantra that is the slogan of mediocre, bubble clubs. And instead of keeping this fact in mind, Leafs Nation is buying in to the 'just make the playoffs' pitch. Bergevin must be laughing his ass off.

 

That's what we need to do: imagine how we would feel if this organization were the Toronto Maple Leafs. If they were, we'd all be mocking them and their fans for not understanding the need to retool and dispose of a transparently failed managerial regime.

 

That said, it is a joy to watch Carey Price being Full Carey Price. And it is indeed hard to believe that with him playing that way, even this team of mediocrities is not a decent bet to make the playoffs.

 

On another note: as far as the 'bust' option goes, I don't think Dahlin is all that relevant. Even if we finish last overall, we will be thrown into a lottery for his services; and I don't think this team is bad enough to finish last overall. So the odds of our landing him are fairly slender. The "busters" are deluding themselves if they think missing the playoffs = Dahlin. But it does mean another top-10 pick. What really matters is that it will make it hard for Molson to leave the current, inept management team in place.

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xXx..CK..xXx    157
2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

This is my view as well.

 

It makes for a very strange experience - never before have I felt ambivalent about the prospect of the Habs doing well. But I hate the way a good chunk of fans are already refocusing and buying into the team's narrative: hey, maybe if all goes well, we can make the playoffs and then anything can happen! This is year 6 of the tenure of a GM who inherited a nucleus that should have been turned into a clear-cut Cup contender by now. Here we are still on the old "anything can happen" mantra that is the slogan of mediocre, bubble clubs. And instead of keeping this fact in mind, Leafs Nation is buying in to the 'just make the playoffs' pitch. Bergevin must be laughing his ass off.

 

That's what we need to do: imagine how we would feel if this organization were the Toronto Maple Leafs. If they were, we'd all be mocking them and their fans for not understanding the need to retool and dispose of a transparently failed managerial regime.

 

That said, it is a joy to watch Carey Price being Full Carey Price. And it is indeed hard to believe that with him playing that way, even this team of mediocrities is not a decent bet to make the playoffs.

 

On another note: as far as the 'bust' option goes, I don't think Dahlin is all that relevant. Even if we finish last overall, we will be thrown into a lottery for his services; and I don't think this team is bad enough to finish last overall. So the odds of our landing him are fairly slender. The "busters" are deluding themselves if they think missing the playoffs = Dahlin. But it does mean another top-10 pick. What really matters is that it will make it hard for Molson to leave the current, inept management team in place.

I agree that the fans shouldn't buy into the narrative that all is well in the world, even if we were to string along a few wins in a row. 

 

With that being said, I find it interesting that you call your stance a strange experience because I've continuously wondered how some people could wish that The Habs do poorly, even if it were to ensure that our GM gets fired. 

 

It's a tough position because while the overwhelming majority of fans (including myself) seem to either be fine with the idea of Bergevin being let go or even demand it, there are also those who would not be so quick

to jump the gun.

 

This entire season, Carey Price's game has been one of the major reasons for the team's lack of success. For the most part, this has been in a negative way.  No one is questioning that the team has holes. Without Carey having played to full potential, however, it can be a bit of an illusion as to what this team needs and what level they really are.

 

If Carey stays healthy and plays up to standards, we'll have a better idea of where the GM can g from here.

 

This is were my personal viewpoint differs. Although Bergevin has had a bad track record in many people's minds, I wouldn't complain if he were to make a solid acquistion or two prior to the trade deadline. 

 

In my opinion, with 8 million in cap space, Begevin HAS to do something in order to even keep a job. If he does nothing, then he was largely responsible for the way this season played out as a result of off season negotiations as well as zen like over-patience throughout the season.

 

I was not happy with his off season but to say that one hopes that our GM won't make any moves is a bit of an irrational thought or, phobia. Whether I like him or not, Bergevin has made decent acquisitons in the past and I'm not going to complain if he makes a good trade or two in season.

 

My opinion is that if he really does deserve to

be let go, it should happen regardless of

him "attempting to save his job" with an acquisition or two.

 

I cannot go as far as wishing harm on the team just to see him get fired. In no way does that seem better than even a fan who would "blindly follow Bergevin" simply because of a great in season move. We should all still want our team to progress or do well, otherwise we have an external agenda.

 

My hope as a fan is to make the playoffs. I said prior to the season that this was the first year I didn't think we could contend, but I've also always thought the team would get better as the season went on with a better understanding of Julien's systems and was hopeful that we could make an addition or two to the squad since the cap is not an issue. None of that derives from blind faith in Bergevin. It does seem, however, that it is a bit dysmorphic to not give credit to

Bergevin should he make some savvy moves to help the team. Whether it saves his job or not.

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hab29RETIRED    175
2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

This is my view as well.

 

It makes for a very strange experience - never before have I felt ambivalent about the prospect of the Habs doing well. But I hate the way a good chunk of fans are already refocusing and buying into the team's narrative: hey, maybe if all goes well, we can make the playoffs and then anything can happen! This is year 6 of the tenure of a GM who inherited a nucleus that should have been turned into a clear-cut Cup contender by now. Here we are still on the old "anything can happen" mantra that is the slogan of mediocre, bubble clubs. And instead of keeping this fact in mind, Leafs Nation is buying in to the 'just make the playoffs' pitch. Bergevin must be laughing his ass off.

 

That's what we need to do: imagine how we would feel if this organization were the Toronto Maple Leafs. If they were, we'd all be mocking them and their fans for not understanding the need to retool and dispose of a transparently failed managerial regime.

 

That said, it is a joy to watch Carey Price being Full Carey Price. And it is indeed hard to believe that with him playing that way, even this team of mediocrities is not a decent bet to make the playoffs.

 

On another note: as far as the 'bust' option goes, I don't think Dahlin is all that relevant. Even if we finish last overall, we will be thrown into a lottery for his services; and I don't think this team is bad enough to finish last overall. So the odds of our landing him are fairly slender. The "busters" are deluding themselves if they think missing the playoffs = Dahlin. But it does mean another top-10 pick. What really matters is that it will make it hard for Molson to leave the current, inept management team in place.

I like our chances of winning Dahlin in the lottery than us wining in the playoffs - assuming we actually make the playoffs.

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hab29RETIRED    175
8 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I agree that the fans shouldn't buy into the narrative that all is well in the world, even if we were to string along a few wins in a row. 

 

With that being said, I find it interesting that you call your stance a strange experience because I've continuously wondered how some people could wish that The Habs do poorly, even if it were to ensure that our GM gets fired. 

 

It's a tough position because while the overwhelming majority of fans (including myself) seem to either be fine with the idea of Bergevin beinf let go or even demand it, there are also those who wouodnt be so quick

to jump the gun.

 

This entire season, Carey Price's game has been one of the major reasons for the team's record. For the most part, this has been in a negstove way.  No one is queationing that the team

has holes. Without Carey having played to full potential, however, it can be a bit of an illusion as to what this team needs. 

 

If Carey stays healthy and plays up to standards, we'll have a better idea of where the GM can g

from here.

 

This is were my personal viewpoint differs. Although Bergevin has had a bad track record in many people's minds, I wouldn't complain if he were to make a solid acquistion or two prior to the trade deadline. 

 

In my opinion, with 8 million in cap space, Begevin HAS to do something in order to even keep a job. If he does nothing, then he was largely responsible for the way this season played out as a result ofnoff season negotiations as well as zen like over-patience throughout the season.

 

I was not happy with his off season but to say that one hopes that our GM won't make any moves is a but of am irrational thought or, phobia. Whether I like him or not, Bergevin has made decent acquisitons in the past and I'm not going to complain if he makes a good trade or two in season.

 

My opinion is that if he really does deserve to

be let go, it should happen regardless of

him "attempting to save his job" with an acquisition or two.

 

I cannot go as far as wishing harm on the team just to see him get fired. in no way does that seem better than even a fan who would "blindly follow Bergevin" simply becauee of a great in

season move. We should all still want our team to progress or do well, otherwise we have an external agenda.

 

My hope as a fan is to make the playoffs. I said prior to the season that this was the first year I didn't think we could contend, but I've also always thought the team would get better as the season went on and was hopeful that we couod make an addition or two tomthe squad since the cap is not an issue. None of that derives from

blind faith in Bergevin. It does seem, however, that it is a bit dysmorphic to not give credit to

Bergevin should ge make some savvy moves to help the team. Whether it saves his job or not.

I don’t want the guy who picked up king, martinson, ott and Benn on a team starving for offence in advance of the playoffs making any more decisions.  

 

Don't even get me started on not resigning Markov and giving stupid money and term to a pylon like Alzner, or trading a Norris winner that will be in his prime for the duration of his contract for a guy who will be in decline for at least 4 years of his contract.

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huzer    61

The Habs won't bust to a top pick, they'll have to trade to get one. So the teaser of Dahlin is a pipe dream.

 

Price on his game, uninjured, the Habs make the playoffs. Price gets hurt, it's 2015/16 all over again. The team in front of him isn't enough to sustain a playoff run, it's that simple.

 

 

 

 

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xXx..CK..xXx    157
21 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I don’t want the guy who picked up king, martinson, ott and Benn on a team starving for offence in advance of the playoffs making any more decisions.  

 

Don't even get me started on not resigning Markov and giving stupid money and term to a pylon like Alzner, or trading a Norris winner that will be in his prime for the duration of his contract for a guy who will be in decline for at least 4 years of his contract.

While I can't argue against the fact that you make a great point, I was also going to add in my post that I didn't feel as though the trade deadline market was that strong last year. Some people wanted Hanzal, Stafford etc. and then other "solid" targets were players like Eaves. I have felt as though Bergevin has mishandled things in the past prior to that season but I don't blame him for the lackluster pool last year. 

 

Martinsen was also acquired for Andrighetto who no one outside myself (who really liked him) seemed to care about losing. Maybe you were with me there?

 

Regardless, while I'm not disillusioned to where the team is now nor to how I felt about our terrible off season, it seems silly to worry that Bergevin would be given credit for making a good move. At this point, we should hope he does. If it saves his job, maybe it should have, maybe it shouldn't have. I'm definitely more in tune with the line of thinking that I'd want our team to definitely get better than Bergevin maybe getting fired if he stands put. And if he were to damage our team further? He should be canned as well. I do have a hard time envisioning any of the doomsday proposals that see a player like Galchenyuk going the other way for a bag of pucks though. That's where the irrational, phobia-like thoughts are making an appearance. 

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12 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

While I can't argue against the fact that you make a great point, I was also going to add in my post that I didn't feel as though the trade deadline market was that strong last year. Some people wanted Hanzal, Stafford etc. and then other "solid" targets were players like Eaves. I have felt as though Bergevin has mishandled things in the past prior to that season but I don't blame him for the lackluster pool last year. 

 

Martinsen was also acquired for Andrighetto who no one outside myself (who really liked him) seemed to care about losing. Maybe you were with me there?

 

Regardless, while I'm not disillusioned to where the team is now nor to how I felt about our terrible off season, it seems silly to worry that Bergevin would be given credit for making a good move. At this point, we should hope he does. If it saves his job, maybe it should have, maybe it shouldn't have. I'm definitely more in tune with the line of thinking that I'd want our team to definitely get better than Bergevin maybe getting fired if he stands put. And if he were to damage our team further? He should be canned as well. I do have a hard time envisioning any of the doomsday proposals that see a player like Galchenyuk going the other way for a bag of pucks though. That's where the irrational, phobia-like, thoughts are making an appearance. 

 

Obviously, if Bergevin makes a brilliant, franchise-redefining move (or moves) between now and the deadline, then that has to be factored into our overall assessment of him.

 

That said, the case for firing him is not just based on the dumb NHL moves Habs29 talks about. Our player development has been garbage and that is at least as significant; in fact, it is an underlying rot that has explained why some of those dumb moves seemed necessary. I can understand the idea of saying "well gee, he may yet make some as-yet-unknown great move," but I have a harder time understanding anyone who thinks MB has done an acceptable job these past six years. Such a person has a much lower set of expectations for this organization than I do, I guess.

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hab29RETIRED    175
8 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Obviously, if Bergevin makes a brilliant, franchise-redefining move (or moves) between now and the deadline, then that has to be factored into our overall assessment of him.

 

That said, the case for firing him is not just based on the dumb NHL moves Habs29 talks about. Our player development has been garbage and that is at least as significant; in fact, it is an underlying rot that has explained why some of those dumb moves seemed necessary. I can understand the idea of saying "well gee, he may yet make some as-yet-unknown great move," but I have a harder time understanding anyone who thinks MB has done an acceptable job these past six years. Such a person has a much lower set of expectations for this organization than I do, I guess.

Agreed.  Player development and obsession about character (especially given his own hiring decisions) has been horrible.  I was only speaking to the point about letting him make more moves this year.

 

IMO, he should have been fired when took the Subban-Weber trade proposal to Molson.

 

there are so many other major things that soured me on MB from the start:

- hiring MT

- not hiring Robinson- twice!!!

- signing Briere 

 not signing Subban long-term befoere the lockout and than going bridge

 

Those are just decisions I hated in his first year in the job.

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DON    35
1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Obviously, if Bergevin makes a brilliant, franchise-redefining move (or moves) between now and the deadline, then that has to be factored into our overall assessment of him.

 

That said, the case for firing him is not just based on the dumb NHL moves Habs29 talks about. Our player development has been garbage and that is at least as significant; in fact, it is an underlying rot that has explained why some of those dumb moves seemed necessary. I can understand the idea of saying "well gee, he may yet make some as-yet-unknown great move," but I have a harder time understanding anyone who thinks MB has done an acceptable job these past six years. Such a person has a much lower set of expectations for this organization than I do, I guess.

Don't worry, no one could be more cynical than yourself, although sidekick29 is a close 2nd. Not sure if he has had anything positive to say about the Habs in...ever?:popcorn:

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Commandant    632
36 minutes ago, DON said:

Don't worry, no one could be more cynical than yourself, although sidekick29 is a close 2nd. Not sure if he has had anything positive to say about the Habs in...ever?:popcorn:

 

I'd say you are correct in 50% of that assessment. 

 

Now figure out which 50

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xXx..CK..xXx    157
3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Obviously, if Bergevin makes a brilliant, franchise-redefining move (or moves) between now and the deadline, then that has to be factored into our overall assessment of him.

 

That said, the case for firing him is not just based on the dumb NHL moves Habs29 talks about. Our player development has been garbage and that is at least as significant; in fact, it is an underlying rot that has explained why some of those dumb moves seemed necessary. I can understand the idea of saying "well gee, he may yet make some as-yet-unknown great move," but I have a harder time understanding anyone who thinks MB has done an acceptable job these past six years. Such a person has a much lower set of expectations for this organization than I do, I guess.

I'm fine with Bergevin being fired but I don't want to associate that with some emergency rebuild that many people are calling for. If a new GM were to come in, I would have the exact same expectations of them as I have of Bergevin right now. 

 

It's entirely possible that Bergevin screws up his next move but I don't think it's necessarily likely that he does. Any hypothetical proposals from people who don't like him seem to be unrealistic proposals that he wouldn't actually make such as Galchenyuk for Jerome Iginla. It's not likely that this type of move will be what actually happens.

 

The point is that while Bergevin is here, it's not that I trust him, but I expect him to make a helpful move for our team. I also think it is possible that he can make a move to bolster the lineup. 

 

It's not really up to me when he gets fired. I would have likely done it prior to the season. Now that he's remained, I personally would give him the season to demonstrate what many thought would need to happen anyway (more moves) and then reassess in the off season. 

 

The main counterargument is that he's going to completely destroy the team if he's "allowed" to make any moves. This is not likely to happen.

 

The second is that our prospect pool is thin. If people expact a new GM to come in and improve our prospect pool at the snap of a finger, that's only going to happen one way; by trading some of our key players for prospects and picks. Somewhat of a fire sale. This is the route I'm definitely not in for because it will involve even more years of mediocrity even if our new GM is "better".

 

Playoffs or bust. 

 

 

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Neech    85

I'm in the playoffs camp.  If we're blowing it up, the soonest we can do it is this offseason.  Even though we're kind of in no man's land with regards to our current talent we're closer to the playoffs than we are to the top of the lottery.  It's hard to see how we get one, but if our cap space was occupied by a centre worth that much I could talk myself into us being a contender.

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zumpano21    44

Even if we got Dahlin, we’d probably trade for Giroux because:

 

French and must win now :quebec:

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5 hours ago, zumpano21 said:

Even if we got Dahlin, we’d probably trade for Giroux because:

 

French and must win now :quebec:

 

You forgot the biggest reason:

 

LEADERSHIP

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xXx..CK..xXx    157
2 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

You forgot the biggest reason:

 

LEADERSHIP

The Habs have great leadership on the back end and in net. I like Pacioretty more than most but it's up front where it's truly lacking. For whatever it would be worth...

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Metallica    1
On 2017-11-29 at 1:15 AM, Trizzak said:

It's a question, not a statement.

 

The team also had an elite goalie signed til 25-26 (to a contract not easily tradeable), a #1 defensemen signed til 25-26 (to a contract not easily tradeable), and are currently 2 points out of a playoff spot...

 

"Playoffs!"

 

But the team has obvious holes and arguably bottom-5 prospect depth in dire need of top-end talent everywhere. The team is top 3 in average shots per game, but 2nd last in goals-for. Depth at center is non-existent. The defense can, at best, be described as a hot mess...

 

"Bust!"

 

And while I expect opinions to vary as often as a winning streak or a losing streak, the question remains... in 17-18 are you playoffs? or bust?

In today’s nhl those contracts can be tradable. If a team is trying to reach the floor minimum they can take a contact like that on. The thing that makes trading difficult is the no movement claws that get handed out like it’s candy. They should do something to fix that. 

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Metallica    1

What we need are players that take there game to the next level once playoffs start.

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DON    35
30 minutes ago, Metallica said:

What we need are players that take there game to the next level once playoffs start.

Most of those are elite players who only slightly up their stats in playoffs...don't get Commandant started on "Clutch" players.:D

 

OH and welcome sir,

Edited by DON
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BCHabnut    172
1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

The Habs have great leadership on the back end and in net. I like Pacioretty more than most but it's up front where it's truly lacking. For whatever it would be worth...

You need more personal info and fave stuff in your signature. :sarcasm_on:

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