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REV-G

Is our problem scouting, drafting, coaches, players or..........??

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REV-G    28

I know we've talked a lot about what the problems are with our team. We have digressed from a few years ago. Instead of taking steps forward, we've slid back, at least into the middle of the pack, and by the end of this year, who knows where we'll be. Will we get it together and look like a good team like we have on our recent 5 game winning streak over the past few weeks or are our secondary players overachieving and will we end up being a team that scores sporadically. We know that most likely Carey will win us games and keep us in games but can we compete with the better teams ahead of us in the standings?? All valid questions.

 

One of the most concerning things has been who we've drafted and how they've turned out. We traded PK because he supposedly didn't play the right way. We're probably going to trade a 3d pick in a draft, Alex Galchenyuk,  a former 30 goal scorer, because he isn't the centre we thought he was and has regressed and is now being bounced all over the lineup. I get it that maybe he isn't playing right. Is it him or our system that has turned him into who he is today. Are there personal issues going on here behind the scenes like Mike Rebeiro?? Have we not taken proper care of our players development and futures?? Is this normal? Do all teams have these issues and what are other teams doing in this area? 

 

We drafted first rounders Nathan Beaulieu, Jared Tinordi, Louis Leblanc and they're all gone with hardly anything to show for them.  We don't have any blue chip prospects, unless Noah Juulsen is considered in that category. We seem to have drafted some good players this year, but based on our track record how will they turn out. 

 

I look at our core, and while we have some good young players like Drouin, Gallagher, Paul Byron, maybe Arturi Lehkonen, and as of the past week maybe our new fourth line [but will they be able to sustain that energy and scoring touch?]. I look at even Max P. and I'm wondering is he done in Montreal or is it just a slump. Is he going to be another John Leclair and once he lands somewhere else he'll soar because he'll have better line mates and a different culture? He looks a bit like he's going through the motions and he's lost some desire and energy. 

 

For me our whole system right now seems frustrating. Something systemic seems broken. And it doesn't seem to be just one person. I don't know if frustration with our whole system is fair or if that really is the problem. Just a few years ago, with the players we had, incoming players were saying we had a great room. Now?? 

 

I know we've said all this before but other than Trevor Timmons I almost feel like we're descended into the former Leaf-like crisis. Do we need to change almost everything from the President right on down to our scouts and our AHL coach.  Am I seeing the glass half empty or are we really in that place?? 

 

It's hard sometimes to put your finger on just one thing when there appears to be leaks in the ship all over! But in my mind I think the issue is leadership, starting at the top. I think these people are good human beings but I think our problem is primarily in the top levels of leadership. Our system seems broken. This is what I think has to change. Geoff Molson has to step aside and put in a very good hockey man as President , who then needs to replace our current GM with the best GM available, period.  Then let him rebuild the front office leadership staff because based on results I'm beginning to think they're ver overrated, pst their shelf life, unfortunately like a lot of things Marc B. has done. Then remake our scouting and coaching staff so our whole system can be reorganized and we can return to being one of the best run organizations. I don't think just constantly changing players is now the answer.

 

What do you think? Is there a solution possible with one or two player moves or do we need to clear the decks of our top level leadership?? If we need to clear the decks, as in from the President on down and come in with a new system and new leaders, I'm personally willing and actually would look forward to it, but to keep going year to year like this, lurching forward a bit and falling back a bit with seemingly not a solid plan in place frustrates everyone. 

 

I think this year is the time. Let's hope.

 

 

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Metallica    2
4 hours ago, REV-G said:

I know we've talked a lot about what the problems are with our team. We have digressed from a few years ago. Instead of taking steps forward, we've slid back, at least into the middle of the pack, and by the end of this year, who knows where we'll be. Will we get it together and look like a good team like we have on our recent 5 game winning streak over the past few weeks or are our secondary players overachieving and will we end up being a team that scores sporadically. We know that most likely Carey will win us games and keep us in games but can we compete with the better teams ahead of us in the standings?? All valid questions.

 

One of the most concerning things has been who we've drafted and how they've turned out. We traded PK because he supposedly didn't play the right way. We're probably going to trade a 3d pick in a draft, Alex Galchenyuk,  a former 30 goal scorer, because he isn't the centre we thought he was and has regressed and is now being bounced all over the lineup. I get it that maybe he isn't playing right. Is it him or our system that has turned him into who he is today. Are there personal issues going on here behind the scenes like Mike Rebeiro?? Have we not taken proper care of our players development and futures?? Is this normal? Do all teams have these issues and what are other teams doing in this area? 

 

We drafted first rounders Nathan Beaulieu, Jared Tinordi, Louis Leblanc and they're all gone with hardly anything to show for them.  We don't have any blue chip prospects, unless Noah Juulsen is considered in that category. We seem to have drafted some good players this year, but based on our track record how will they turn out. 

 

I look at our core, and while we have some good young players like Drouin, Gallagher, Paul Byron, maybe Arturi Lehkonen, and as of the past week maybe our new fourth line [but will they be able to sustain that energy and scoring touch?]. I look at even Max P. and I'm wondering is he done in Montreal or is it just a slump. Is he going to be another John Leclair and once he lands somewhere else he'll soar because he'll have better line mates and a different culture? He looks a bit like he's going through the motions and he's lost some desire and energy. 

 

For me our whole system right now seems frustrating. Something systemic seems broken. And it doesn't seem to be just one person. I don't know if frustration with our whole system is fair or if that really is the problem. Just a few years ago, with the players we had, incoming players were saying we had a great room. Now?? 

 

I know we've said all this before but other than Trevor Timmons I almost feel like we're descended into the former Leaf-like crisis. Do we need to change almost everything from the President right on down to our scouts and our AHL coach.  Am I seeing the glass half empty or are we really in that place?? 

 

It's hard sometimes to put your finger on just one thing when there appears to be leaks in the ship all over! But in my mind I think the issue is leadership, starting at the top. I think these people are good human beings but I think our problem is primarily in the top levels of leadership. Our system seems broken. This is what I think has to change. Geoff Molson has to step aside and put in a very good hockey man as President , who then needs to replace our current GM with the best GM available, period.  Then let him rebuild the front office leadership staff because based on results I'm beginning to think they're ver overrated, pst their shelf life, unfortunately like a lot of things Marc B. has done. Then remake our scouting and coaching staff so our whole system can be reorganized and we can return to being one of the best run organizations. I don't think just constantly changing players is now the answer.

 

What do you think? Is there a solution possible with one or two player moves or do we need to clear the decks of our top level leadership?? If we need to clear the decks, as in from the President on down and come in with a new system and new leaders, I'm personally willing and actually would look forward to it, but to keep going year to year like this, lurching forward a bit and falling back a bit with seemingly not a solid plan in place frustrates everyone. 

 

I think this year is the time. Let's hope.

 

 

Our problems are depth and player development. When our core group became our core group we stop the development of players and drafting and adding depth. We are now seeing the results of that. 

 The reason we go on slides when we have key injuries is the result of lack of depth from bad drafting and lack of player development. Thats what the last 7 years we have seen the team go through the same problems. Until this gets fixed no matter who replaces who the same results will keep happening, just like they have been.

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nihilz    24

The media since the Nordiques left.

 

The French language is slowly killing everything in this corrupt Province. The Habs are not exempt.

 

Salut, bye.

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Problem is very simple PQ and the media. We are not allowed to hire the best coaches and GMs for the job because the media runs the city and would not put up with it. The same media forces GMs to make moves sometimes that make no sense but the are being pressured heavily in the media to do something, anything, to make changes. Once Montreal accepts the fact that to be a competitive team in 'today's NHL you need to operate in English like the rest of the league and hire the best men for the top jobs regardless of their linguistic ability then we can once again become a serious contender. IMO

 

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49 minutes ago, Metallica said:

Our problems are depth and player development. When our core group became our core group we stop the development of players and drafting and adding depth. We are now seeing the results of that. 

 The reason we go on slides when we have key injuries is the result of lack of depth from bad drafting and lack of player development. Thats what the last 7 years we have seen the team go through the same problems. Until this gets fixed no matter who replaces who the same results will keep happening, just like they have been.

You are quite wrong here. Montreal's percentage of draft picks making the NHL is actually above average. What we have to do is keep the kids we draft longer. We are too quick to give away top prospects.

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If you think the problem is the players, the problem is who acquired the players: management.

If you think the problem is the media, the problem is the people who care what they say: management.

If you think the problem is drafting, the problem is the people who draft: management.

If you think the problem is developing, the problem is who runs the development: management.

If you think the problem is coaching, the problem is who hired the coaching staff: management.

 

The only thing that isn't the problem of management is the person who allows management to run the way they run: ownership.

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Metallica    2
4 minutes ago, johnnyhasbeen said:

You are quite wrong here. Montreal's percentage of draft picks making the NHL is actually above average. What we have to do is keep the kids we draft longer. We are too quick to give away top prospects.

Over the last 6 years how many first round picks does Montreal have that are full time NHL players playing on the team or that we traded and there playing full time mins on a other team? I count just 2 in Beaulieu and galchenyuk . Thats not a good track record.

 

Over the last 6 years players that were not pick in the first round that are playing full time in NHL are

Andrighetto 

Lenkonen 

Hudon 

Rose 

 

So you are telling me our drafting is above average when all we have playing in the NHL over the last 6 years is 6 players?

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Metallica said:

Over the last 6 years how many first round picks does Montreal have that are full time NHL players playing on the team or that we traded and there playing full time mins on a other team? I count just 2 in Beaulieu and galchenyuk . Thats not a good track record.

 

Over the last 6 years players that were not pick in the first round that are playing full time in NHL are

Andrighetto 

Lenkonen 

Hudon 

Rose 

 

So you are telling me our drafting is above average when all we have playing in the NHL over the last 6 years is 6 players?

 

 

 

Yes, there was actually a very good write up on that in here not long ago. The avg draft only nets teams something like 1.5 players that get an substantial  NHL time.

 

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Commandant    719
18 minutes ago, johnnyhasbeen said:

Yes, there was actually a very good write up on that in here not long ago. The avg draft only nets teams something like 1.5 players that get an substantial  NHL time.

 

 

1.8 players per team, per draft, will play 100 NHL games. 

You are already at 6 in 6 years who will get there. 

On top of that, its way too early to judge the last three drafts.  (Though its already a good bet that Mete and Sergachev will add two more to that total, giving us 8 in 6 years)

You also have Michael McCarron, likely to get to 100 games

 

Thats 9 in 6 years already.... plus a number of guys way too early to write off. 

The big issue is the 2008 - 2011 drafts which produced basically Gallagher and nothing else.  We are suffering from trading too many picks in those years. 

 

We see that this scouting group was one of the best in the NHL from 2004 - 2007... averaging over 3 players per draft. Then a bad spell... and now its started to turn around again. 

 

But that gap from 2008 - 2011 is players 25-28 right now... guys in their prime... and thats a bit of a hole in our team. 

 

Our under 25 talent is actually pretty good. 

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DON    43
1 hour ago, johnnyhasbeen said:

 We are too quick to give away top prospects.

Which ones flourished elsewhere? 

 

I also think local politics is a detriment to team success. 

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Chris    2

McDonough

Sergachev

 

Traded Subban for Weber

 

Pretty nice D core they would have had. 

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Commandant    719
2 hours ago, DON said:

Which ones flourished elsewhere? 

 

I also think local politics is a detriment to team success. 

 

Didnt have a 1st rounder in 2008

Didnt have a 2nd rounder in 2009, 2010, 2011

seems to coincide with the years where I've identified that we only got one player with 100 games out of 4 drafts.  Trading picks away hurt in that span (there were also 3rd and 4th rounders we moved in those years).

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Trizzak    594
4 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

1.8 players per team, per draft, will play 100 NHL games. 

 

Okay, but is there a different number for productive or impact players?

 

Like... Gabriel Dumont, Jacob de la Rose, and Micheal McCarron will all probably hit 100 games played in the NHL, but nobody would point to those players and say, "Look at our quality drafting!"

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Commandant    719
18 minutes ago, Trizzak said:

 

Okay, but is there a different number for productive or impact players?

 

Like... Gabriel Dumont, Jacob de la Rose, and Micheal McCarron will all probably hit 100 games played in the NHL, but nobody would point to those players and say, "Look at our quality drafting!"

 

I havent seen a look at things with a different number. 

 

That said, included in that average of 1.8 per team, are a number of players of similar caliber.  Every team is going to draft fourth liners, and every team is going to draft impact players, but no, not at the same rate. 

That said I think Mete, Sergachev, Hudon, Lehkonen, Galchenyuk, Andrigetto is a good haul for 5 drafts 2012-2016, with a chance for some guys like Scherbak to still be top 9 players. 

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Trizzak    594
8 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

I havent seen a look at things with a different number. 

 

That said, included in that average of 1.8 per team, are a number of players of similar caliber.  Every team is going to draft fourth liners, and every team is going to draft impact players, but no, not at the same rate. 

That said I think Mete, Sergachev, Hudon, Lehkonen, Galchenyuk, Andrigetto is a good haul for 5 drafts 2012-2016, with a chance for some guys like Scherbak to still be top 9 players. 

 

I'm not disagreeing, and I don't see Timmins as the problem (#firelefebvre), but I just don't think "1.8 players with 100 games played" says much about quality of players drafted.

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Commandant    719
5 minutes ago, Trizzak said:

 

I'm not disagreeing, and I don't see Timmins as the problem (#firelefebvre), but I just don't think "1.8 players with 100 games played" says much about quality of players drafted.

 

The problem with other measures is that they become subjective instead of objective, and then there becomes bias involved. 

 

Is Josh Manson an impact player?  I'd say he is. But an objective stat like his point totals, might have one think he is not. 

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Trizzak    594
1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

The problem with other measures is that they become subjective instead of objective, and then there becomes bias involved. 

 

Is Josh Manson an impact player?  I'd say he is. But an objective stat like his point totals, might have one think he is not. 

 

But this particular objective measure isn't really telling us what we want to know. It's telling us we're meeting the average number of NHLers developed per draft, but it doesn't distinguish between a 1st line player and a 3rd line player.

 

Are fans impressed if scouting only lands their team 1.8 3rd line players every draft? Hell no.

 

I need something that tells me if the scouting team is consistently finding the quality players within the quantity. "100+ games" doesn't quite get there. 

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Commandant    719
8 hours ago, Trizzak said:

 

But this particular objective measure isn't really telling us what we want to know. It's telling us we're meeting the average number of NHLers developed per draft, but it doesn't distinguish between a 1st line player and a 3rd line player.

 

Are fans impressed if scouting only lands their team 1.8 3rd line players every draft? Hell no.

 

I need something that tells me if the scouting team is consistently finding the quality players within the quantity. "100+ games" doesn't quite get there. 

 

You are likely looking at slightly less than half of that 1.8 being impact players.  (top 6 fwds, top 4 D, #1 G)

 

Thats about half the nhl roster. 

 

Now there is more turnover in the bottom lines than the top lines.... a bottom line guy might get 100-150 games and then gets replaced, the career is shorter... where guys at the top of the lineup are more likely to get 300, 400, 500 etc... games... so thats where i say the top line guys are going to be less than half of that 1.8 per draft. 

 

I'm removing the 2017 draft from the equation.... way too early to know anything about those guys. 

 

Earlier picks that the jury is still out on.... Scherbak, Juulsen, Bitten, Vejdemo, Lernout, Evans, 

 

in the 5 drafts we are looking at.  Top 6 forwards/Top 4 D = Galchenyuk, Sergachev, Lehkonen and maybe Mete, Hudon,.    The bottom of the roster guys look like DLR, McCarron, Andrighetto,  

And then some too be determined guys. 

Simply put I don't think the drafting from 2012 onwards has been bad.

 

The drafting from 2008 - 2011 though... thats 4 lean years, with basically only gallagher to show for it (and Beaulieu to an extent). 

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That's good analysis, Commandant. Maybe I've been too hard on MB's drafting and development.

 

I do think, though, that being 'adequate' in that category simply isn't good enough for a mid-range, non-tanking team. Not if the goal is to win a Cup. A team like the Habs absolutely has to nail some elite players outside of round one, as Nashville has done. A parade of Metes and Hudons and Lehkonens coming up the Met from Laval is not going to lead to a parade down Rue Ste Catherine. 

 

Basically a team drafting in the middle rounds has no choice but to be absolutely elite in drafting and development if it wants to contend.

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Commandant    719
5 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

That's good analysis, Commandant. Maybe I've been too hard on MB's drafting and development.

 

I do think, though, that being 'adequate' in that category simply isn't good enough for a mid-range, non-tanking team. Not if the goal is to win a Cup. A team like the Habs absolutely has to nail some elite players outside of round one, as Nashville has done. A parade of Metes and Hudons and Lehkonens coming up the Met from Laval is not going to lead to a parade down Rue Ste Catherine. 

 

Basically a team drafting in the middle rounds has no choice but to be absolutely elite in drafting and development if it wants to contend.

 

I think our development can be better. 

 

I also think that we can be better in trades and free agency as well. 

 

Yes, being adequate isn't good enough... you have to be elite somewhere.  MB hasn't done enough with this roster to take it to the next level. 

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Habsfan    62
On 12/9/2017 at 4:55 PM, nihilz said:

The media since the Nordiques left.

 

The French language is slowly killing everything in this corrupt Province. The Habs are not exempt.

 

Salut, bye.

Seriously, do we need this kind of useless comment around here!??

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nihilz    24
4 minutes ago, Habsfan said:

Seriously, do we need this kind of useless comment around here!??

 

How about you go #### yourself.

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Habsfan    62
5 minutes ago, nihilz said:

 

How about you go #### yourself.

No thanks!

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nihilz    24
Just now, Habsfan said:

No thanks!

 

There. That was a useless comment, mon tabarnac!

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Toronthab    357
On 12/10/2017 at 5:00 PM, nihilz said:

 

How about you go #### yourself.

I've been following the new "gender as social construct' theory of human identity but everything I've read in biology suggests this could be a very painful direction to press forward one might say. I've personally never accommodated anyone who has kindly suggested this common but unavoidably  highly gymnastic option.

 

Mind you ... when they called me an "A H", I was sure they meant "Avid Habsfan"!

 

I've since been advised that this might have been an unreasonably optimistic reading ...

 

Oh well...:wacko:

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