GDT 38: Montreal at Tampa, December 28th

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, Stogey24 said:

I never imagined Karl Alzner to be this useless. 

 

Pacioretty wants to get traded. His play is indicative of that. 

 

This team needs to be blown up

I said it in July.  Alzner is a useless dman - not what we needed at all and now we have joy of watching him for another 4 years.  But the arguement was he is better than emelin.  Replacing one pylon with another isn’t an improvement.

[hab29RETIRED]

9 hours ago, DON said:

Your complaining about Beaulieu and Emelin...you serious? Any other useless baggage you want to pile on to try and make a weak point? Jerabek looks like a good signing and Drouin likely is as well, Markov is washed up and Radulov never said he would re-sign.

You’re seriously still calling the Drouin deal a good deal????  When are you finally going to criticize MB, when he trades Price for Greisse and ho-sang?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

3 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

You’re seriously still calling the Drouin deal a good deal????  When are you finally going to criticize MB, when he trades Price for Greisse and ho-sang?

 

To be fair, even DON has had some critical things to say about Moron Marc's dealings of late. Which says a lot.

[huzer]

Any intriguing prospects in the 8-12 range that Bergy can trade in a year or two?

[Metallica]

Here's a question, is the only reason MB still have a job because he is a home town boy???? I wonder how fast he would of been fired if he wasn't a home town boy.

[Guest Stogey24]

42 minutes ago, Metallica said:

Here's a question, is the only reason MB still have a job because he is a home town boy???? I wonder how fast he would of been fired if he wasn't a home town boy.

His contract doesn't help 

[Link67]

2 hours ago, DON said:

Schenn? What you talkin about? No one wanted him.

And when did Radulov say he would stay in Montreal for more $$, other than from HabFans and no one other than HabFans would of offered more for a Russian with sketchy track record. So you are good with 28 and 74 being gonzo, smart?

I do have issue with Radulov and Markov both leaving and Bergevin either not knowing and also being unprepared for this and Gelinas-Morrow-Strait-Hemsky more stop gap and not a good long term plan. And sitting on an extra $8 or 9m this long, with this weak a team is just goofy.

 

Brayden Schenn is a top 6 center, who's position would not be questioned, a big body, and a player who was traded at a reasonable price. And we were no where to be found in the situation, we desperately need top 6 centers, get fed the chicken soup about how good players are not available. And now Schenn is a ppg player in St.Louis and we are still looking for big bodied top 6 centers. Do you not see the god damn problem there DON or are we going to continue to see more lame excuses like "no one wanted Schenn"

 

 

P.s Emelin and Beaulieu were more than expendable assests, Jerabek is doing no worse than Beaulieu and arguably already better. And for the caphit difference, id rather a puck mover like Schlemko over Emelin. The main problem is Markov is gone, we had and clearly still have no one capable of doing what he did, 38 or not, instead we have Alzner, who as most washington fans predicted, is a shell of his former self. He is barely cutting it as a decent defensive dman, Benn has arguably been better lately. Nevermind putting in the type of quality minutes Markov was logging and contributing to this team.

[dlbalr]

59 minutes ago, Link67 said:

Brayden Schenn is a top 6 center, who's position would not be questioned, a big body, and a player who was traded at a reasonable price. And we were no where to be found in the situation, we desperately need top 6 centers, get fed the chicken soup about how good players are not available. And now Schenn is a ppg player in St.Louis and we are still looking for big bodied top 6 centers.

5

 

He spent a lot of time as a winger last season.  He hadn't been a full-time centre for years; his position really was in question.  St. Louis acquired him with an idea that he'd be a winger for them even - they originally planned for Fabbri to start at centre this season but the injury to him (plus Berglund) forced their hand with Schenn.

 

And, for the record, the Habs did talk to Philly regarding Schenn:

 

 

[Link67]

14 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

He spent a lot of time as a winger last season.  He hadn't been a full-time centre for years; his position really was in question.  St. Louis acquired him with an idea that he'd be a winger for them even - they originally planned for Fabbri to start at centre this season but the injury to him (plus Berglund) forced their hand with Schenn.

 

And, for the record, the Habs did talk to Philly regarding Schenn:

 

 

 

Fact remains however, he is thriving at center, practically being more productive than our entire top line combined. And the price paid for him was not very high at all. There was simply no excuse why a team who didn't need a top 6 forward as badly as we did was willing and able to pay reasonably for his services, and we, as desperate as we are for top 6 players, were not.

[hab29RETIRED]

17 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

He spent a lot of time as a winger last season.  He hadn't been a full-time centre for years; his position really was in question.  St. Louis acquired him with an idea that he'd be a winger for them even - they originally planned for Fabbri to start at centre this season but the injury to him (plus Berglund) forced their hand with Schenn.

 

And, for the record, the Habs did talk to Philly regarding Schenn:

 

 

The price seems lower than what we gave up for Drouin.

[dlbalr]

13 minutes ago, Link67 said:

Fact remains however, he is thriving at center, practically being more productive than our entire top line combined. And the price paid for him was not very high at all. There was simply no excuse why a team who didn't need a top 6 forward as badly as we did was willing and able to pay reasonably for his services, and we, as desperate as we are for top 6 players, were not.

2

 

Two first-round picks is a high price to pay, generally speaking.  A lot of people around the league thought it was a steep price to pay.  Posters on here thought it was a steep price to pay.  Now, had everyone known he was going to have a career year out of nowhere, that'd be different.  But no one realistically could have expected that Schenn would go from a ~55 point player (a player often viewed as a second liner) to someone on pace for ~85 in a top-end role.  (And considering a lot of players see their offence drop in Montreal, I don't think he'd be putting up those numbers here either.)  Knowing now that Schenn could be a top-line player after all, I'd have supported the Habs making a comparable deal and I'm sure others would have as well.  But there was no evidence to suggest that he was going to thrive at centre in Montreal after struggling when deployed there in Philly and magically turn into a top-ten scorer league-wide.

 

12 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

The price seems lower than what we gave up for Drouin.

 

I agree - it is but again, no one saw this coming from Schenn.  If you took a poll of GMs, coaches, fans, whoever back in June and asked who's likely to be more productive this season between Schenn and Drouin, I think most would have picked Drouin.  There's also a five-year difference in age and a significant difference in team control; these are elements that also play a role in the acquisition price obviously.  It's easily defensible as to why Montreal paid more for Drouin; had the Habs dealt Sergachev for Schenn back in June, I'm pretty confident in suggesting that the reaction from this fanbase wouldn't have been pretty and would have been much worse than the reaction that came from the Drouin trade.  It hasn't worked out great for the Habs so far but Drouin still has a lot of time to turn things around.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

It wasn't Schenn or Drouin. Especially since Philly took Lethera as a cap dump. 

[Toronthab]

4 hours ago, huzer said:

Any intriguing prospects in the 8-12 range that Bergy can trade in a year or two?

I like the way he's creeping up on the other teams who haven't the slightest notion of the powerhouse he's constructing... 

[Toronthab]

1 hour ago, dlbalr said:

 

Two first-round picks is a high price to pay, generally speaking.  A lot of people around the league thought it was a steep price to pay.  Posters on here thought it was a steep price to pay.  Now, had everyone known he was going to have a career year out of nowhere, that'd be different.  But no one realistically could have expected that Schenn would go from a ~55 point player (a player often viewed as a second liner) to someone on pace for ~85 in a top-end role.  (And considering a lot of players see their offence drop in Montreal, I don't think he'd be putting up those numbers here either.)  Knowing now that Schenn could be a top-line player after all, I'd have supported the Habs making a comparable deal and I'm sure others would have as well.  But there was no evidence to suggest that he was going to thrive at centre in Montreal after struggling when deployed there in Philly and magically turn into a top-ten scorer league-wide.

 

 

I agree - it is but again, no one saw this coming from Schenn.  If you took a poll of GMs, coaches, fans, whoever back in June and asked who's likely to be more productive this season between Schenn and Drouin, I think most would have picked Drouin.  There's also a five-year difference in age and a significant difference in team control; these are elements that also play a role in the acquisition price obviously.  It's easily defensible as to why Montreal paid more for Drouin; had the Habs dealt Sergachev for Schenn back in June, I'm pretty confident in suggesting that the reaction from this fanbase wouldn't have been pretty and would have been much worse than the reaction that came from the Drouin trade.  It hasn't worked out great for the Habs so far but Drouin still has a lot of time to turn things around.

I think its certainly true that as fan bases go we certainly aren't very pretty. Ok.. well I'm pretty cute but the rest a youse... 

[xXx..CK..xXx]

I agree that while many of the criticisms are certainly valid, the solutions from the fan base often seem all over the place. Just as an example, I was literally the only person who outwardly vocalized that I would have “overpaid” for Radulov and now there are those who say we should have signed Radulov. Well, you weren’t saying that then, and hindsight is 20/20. It has to do with our current state of affairs and they wouldn’t have said the same thing a few months ago. This is just one example, there are others out there. 

 

As for the Markov debate near the end there, there is one side that was stating that they were upset we let Markov walk while the other side was stating Markov walking wasn’t the issue, it’s that we didn’t properly prepare for a replacement.

 

I tend to agree with both claims, actually. My personal view, however, is that there aren’t many legitimate replacements out there. Markov was still more than serviceable, despite his critics, and anyone who would truly replace his services  would have to be acquired via trade at high cost (Hall for Larsson/Henrique for Vatanen) or be someone young.

 

This wasn’t intended to go a specific direction but I can’t fathom someone defending the Sergachev trade and then in addition state that it was okay to let Markov walk but we “suck” for not having someone to replace him. 

 

Don’t trade Sergachev or sign Markov. At the very least. 

[illWill]

23 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

 

 

Don’t trade Sergachev or sign Markov. At the very least. 

 

 

I am okay with Subban for Weber.

I am okay with Sergachev for Drouin. 

I am okay not overpaying Radulov. 

I am okay signing Alzner.

I am okay getting rid of Beaulieu and Emelin.

 

However on no planet am I okay with letting Markov walk for nothing. To me this is the biggest mistake Bergevin has made for this season. Markov is the Montreal Canadiens. The record with him in the lineup vs out is ridiculous. Sure he has slowed down lately but his game was never about speed, but smart positioning and passing. 

 

Markov Weber

Alzner Petry

Schlemko Benn

 

That looks like a real NHL defense. All we have now is almost no chance at the playoffs and a whole lot of cap space

[DON]

I am so-so with Markov walking, but not so much with 'plan B, C, D' or more the lack of.

[Toronthab]

If I had anything intelligent and helpful to add to the discussion I'd probably do it here and now. 

 

This doesn't seem to be the case however. 

 

I'd just ignore me. 

 

 

[Link67]

5 hours ago, illWill said:

 

 

I am okay with Subban for Weber.

I am okay with Sergachev for Drouin. 

I am okay not overpaying Radulov. 

I am okay signing Alzner.

I am okay getting rid of Beaulieu and Emelin.

 

However on no planet am I okay with letting Markov walk for nothing. To me this is the biggest mistake Bergevin has made for this season. Markov is the Montreal Canadiens. The record with him in the lineup vs out is ridiculous. Sure he has slowed down lately but his game was never about speed, but smart positioning and passing. 

 

Markov Weber

Alzner Petry

Schlemko Benn

 

That looks like a real NHL defense. All we have now is almost no chance at the playoffs and a whole lot of cap space

 

While I agree that Markov was the biggest loss and was ultimately going to be the biggest problem.

 

I have also noticed the skeptism that I tried desperately to drown out with optimism going into the season about signing Alzner, and Radulov not being needed to the point of overpaying to retain him, was foolish. Alzner is exactly what washington fans were saying, Radulov was a big loss because we never used the cap we could have spent on him, on any other top 6 forward.

 

Mash those 3 poor decisions together, tagged along with some underperforming top players for us, and you have this perfect storm of disapointment we have to endure the rest of the season. Unless of course by some miracle, Bergevin gets off his ass, smacks a couple homerun deals in an attempt to show he still has some competence left, and bring optimism back for next year while saving his skin. I wouldn't bet my sons bike on that scenario playing out though.

[hab29RETIRED]

6 hours ago, illWill said:

 

 

I am okay with Subban for Weber.

I am okay with Sergachev for Drouin. 

I am okay not overpaying Radulov. 

I am okay signing Alzner.

I am okay getting rid of Beaulieu and Emelin.

 

However on no planet am I okay with letting Markov walk for nothing. To me this is the biggest mistake Bergevin has made for this season. Markov is the Montreal Canadiens. The record with him in the lineup vs out is ridiculous. Sure he has slowed down lately but his game was never about speed, but smart positioning and passing. 

 

Markov Weber

Alzner Petry

Schlemko Benn

 

That looks like a real NHL defense. All we have now is almost no chance at the playoffs and a whole lot of cap space

If we had kept Subban and Sergechev the loss of Markov wouldn’t have hurt as much - although he would have been the ideal second pairing mentor/partner for Sergechev.  We would be a much better team if we had over spent for radulov than the absolutely useless Alzner.

 

maxpac would also have been much more effective with subban, Markov and Sergechev feeding him and radulov working the boards.

 

but your one of the ones who prefers the leadership and character of Weber and Alzner.  

[Machine of Loving Grace]

8 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

If we had kept Subban and Sergechev the loss of Markov wouldn’t have hurt as much - although he would have been the ideal second pairing mentor/partner for Sergechev.  We would be a much better team if we had over spent for radulov than the absolutely useless Alzner.

 

maxpac would also have been much more effective with subban, Markov and Sergechev feeding him and radulov working the boards.

 

but your one of the ones who prefers the leadership and character of Weber and Alzner.  

 

Sergachev - Subban

Markov - Petry

Mete/Jerabek - Benn

 

I think Price would much prefer that.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

33 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Sergachev - Subban

Markov - Petry

Mete/Jerabek - Benn

 

I think Price would much prefer that.

 

My God, THAT'S a D for today's NHL. 

 

While I'm sure Alzner's advanced stats are better than Emelin's, I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer Emelin. At least he was entertaining to watch and would occasionally have epic games. Watching Alzner is like watching 'dead puck' 1990s hockey distilled in one man. 

[Machine of Loving Grace]

It was also never Emelin or Alzner. Neither was the best option.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

31 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

It was also never Emelin or Alzner. Neither was the best option.

 

Well, I guess that's the bigger point. We have a solid stay-at home #5 defenceman in Benn. Once he claimed that role, all attention should have been paid to acquiring, by hook ot by crook, a quality puck-mover. Not a flatfoot like Alzner. It is just ridiculous, what MB has done to this blueline.

[hab29RETIRED]

5 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

My God, THAT'S a D for today's NHL. 

 

While I'm sure Alzner's advanced stats are better than Emelin's, I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer Emelin. At least he was entertaining to watch and would occasionally have epic games. Watching Alzner is like watching 'dead puck' 1990s hockey distilled in one man. 

Emelin actually is doing quite well in Nashville, now that he’s playing for a coach that makes use of a players strengths rather than dwell on what he doesn’t do well.  It’s no wonder why the Habs player development sucks.  They don’t appreciate what I guy does bring to the table, and want a player to become what they think a hockey player should be.  They’d probably be fine managing mindless robots - not so much actual human beings.

 

on another note, Alzner is exhibit A, and Drouin Exhibit B, why I really don’t care about a guys advance starts.  It should be one small input to player evaluation- not the end all, be all stats guys make it to be.  Hockey is not baseball, where you have one on one matchups with a pitcher and batter.