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Is Pacioretty A Real Leader?

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Meller93    128

I think though Pacioretty is underperforming, he’s basically in an impossible situation right now. Almost zero newly minted captains will gain a good reputation for being a leader if their team isn’t performing. 

 

That at being said, I think Pacioretty has been an extremely mature leader during his time as captain, and is performing really well as an off-ice leader. But his style of game doesn’t scream high intensity ala Gallagher. This means when he isn’t producing, he looks quite ineffective. Is he the guy for Montreal at this time? Probably not. Is he captain material? I think so. It’s just not really going his way.

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RobRock    7

No

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l<OV4L3V    18
11 hours ago, Meller93 said:

That at being said, I think Pacioretty has been an extremely mature leader during his time as captain, and is performing really well as an off-ice leader. 


Please elaborate on how you feel he is an off-ice leader. 

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Meller93    128
2 hours ago, l

Pacioretty continues to take massive heat from media, and takes it away from his teammates, often placing blame squarely on his shoulders.

 

He’s clearly trying his best when it comes to giving back to the community, for example his captain’s tournament raises hundreds of thousands a year.

 

It’s also clear that he’s trying to lead by example in terms of being a good guy in the locker room, and keeping the right mind set (at least to the onlookers). I’m not saying he says the right thing every time, but it’s pretty clear that he’s trying, which is pretty damn important.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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sbhatt    33
1 hour ago, Meller93 said:

Pacioretty continues to take massive heat from media, and takes it away from his teammates, often placing blame squarely on his shoulders.

 

He’s clearly trying his best when it comes to giving back to the community, for example his captain’s tournament raises hundreds of thousands a year.

 

It’s also clear that he’s trying to lead by example in terms of being a good guy in the locker room, and keeping the right mind set (at least to the onlookers). I’m not saying he says the right thing every time, but it’s pretty clear that he’s trying, which is pretty damn important.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He is definitely a guy who 'keeps his nose clean' and will never embarrass your organization with off-ice shenanigans or an outrageous quote, and he does his fair share of charity work.  Is that enough to offset his lack of intensity on-ice?  I don't feel it does...maybe it's old-fashioned thinking, but I think of captains in the mold of guys who lead on the ice and on the bench, working hard every shift and elevating their game in the biggest moments.  Mark Messier types.  Steve Yzerman types.  I think Max is a 'good guy', but he's too laid-back for my tastes when talking about the 'C'.

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RobRock    7
5 hours ago, sbhatt said:

 

He is definitely a guy who 'keeps his nose clean' and will never embarrass your organization with off-ice shenanigans or an outrageous quote, and he does his fair share of charity work.  Is that enough to offset his lack of intensity on-ice?  I don't feel it does...maybe it's old-fashioned thinking, but I think of captains in the mold of guys who lead on the ice and on the bench, working hard every shift and elevating their game in the biggest moments.  Mark Messier types.  Steve Yzerman types.  I think Max is a 'good guy', but he's too laid-back for my tastes when talking about the 'C'.

 

If that's the criteria, then give the C to Gallagher right now.  He's the one guy that you can honestly say never takes the night off.  He may have bad nights, but never due to a lack of effort.

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RobRock    7
7 hours ago, Meller93 said:

Pacioretty continues to take massive heat from media, and takes it away from his teammates, often placing blame squarely on his shoulders.

 

He’s clearly trying his best when it comes to giving back to the community, for example his captain’s tournament raises hundreds of thousands a year.

 

It’s also clear that he’s trying to lead by example in terms of being a good guy in the locker room, and keeping the right mind set (at least to the onlookers). I’m not saying he says the right thing every time, but it’s pretty clear that he’s trying, which is pretty damn important.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God forbid you don't have the right mindset in the locker room.

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l<OV4L3V    18
21 hours ago, Meller93 said:

Pacioretty continues to take massive heat from media, and takes it away from his teammates, often placing blame squarely on his shoulders.

 

He’s clearly trying his best when it comes to giving back to the community, for example his captain’s tournament raises hundreds of thousands a year.

 

It’s also clear that he’s trying to lead by example in terms of being a good guy in the locker room, and keeping the right mind set (at least to the onlookers). I’m not saying he says the right thing every time, but it’s pretty clear that he’s trying, which is pretty damn important.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Heres to hoping that he turns it around so his player value rises; because if Bergevin were to send him out of town, his price would be at an all time low. The off-season makes more sense if a trade were to occur. Taking responsibility for everything that is going wrong is not necessarily a good thing, especially to the wolves of media in Montreal; secondly I don't think his personality fits the mold of captain characteristics. It was a mistake nominating him captain, he already had high expectations to be a consistent 30+ goal scorer, the added responsibility likely plays a factor in the regression of his production.   

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Nobody deserves to be captain if Price cannot be captain.

 

It's lipstick on a pig if the letter is on anyone except him.

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Weber will get the "C" if and when Patches is moved.

 

Unless he is moved as well. I doubt he's happy in Montreal. Wait until he's healthy and dump him at the draft.

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DON    38
2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Nobody deserves to be captain if Price cannot be captain.

 

It's lipstick on a pig if the letter is on anyone except him.

I think most fans would be happy (if that is important) with Weber, Gallagher, who seem like two good options. Only complaint last time was that Gallagher was just too young. Well, he has bled for Habs for a couple more years now, experienced enough now I would say?

 

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hab29RETIRED    181
57 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Unless he is moved as well. I doubt he's happy in Montreal. Wait until he's healthy and dump him at the draft.

Frankly, i don't think it matters whether he is happy in Montreal.  We NEED a rebuild.  I don't think we need an Oilers/Buffalo try and finish last for 3 or 4 years rebuild.  In todays' game the two most important positions are centre and defence.  We have no centre and a defence that is not suited for today's game.  Despite what some posters here said at the start of the year - this just is not a very good team.  In fact is an extremely  poorly constructed team for the way the game is played today.

 

If Galchenyuk is not going to be given a real opportunity at centre, We need TWO centreman if Galchenyuk is not going to be given a real chance to be a at least a 2nd line centre - I don't see Drouin as a one of those centres - keep him at wing.  Galchanyuk has shown he can produce at centre, Drouin has not.  

 

At a minimum we need to improve our  #2 and #3 dmen - in fact I'd even argue that we need a #1.  In today's game a solid skating, puck moving dman that can skate with the pick and help/control the transition game, should be your # 1 Dman.  Dump and chase teams don't win cups anymore.   In light of that, I don't think Weber is really a #1 and is better suited for the #2 role.  I also don't see Petry as being that #3 guy, if this team is going to be a true contender (and Petry is still on the team, he would be the #4).  If we keep Weber, maybe Mete can be that #3, not sure yet.  

 

Unless we move a significant core (or by some miracle Tavares has a brain cramp and sign with us over the summer - it would be awesome if he did, though I don't know why he would, given how this team is being run), we probably need to move draft picks - hell, even if we move a guy like like MaxPac, we would probably still need to add a #1 pick to get a true top centre.  A team whose highest players paid are over 30 and signed for the next 8 years at over $8M cannot afford to be giving up draft picks, when a top centre is not one of those two players. 

 

I think if we are going to be a TRUE contender, we need to do a tear down and unload ALL of our veterans that over that 26 year old range - because its going to take at least 3 years for this team to be a contender.  We need to accumulate picks and stop moving picks or prospects on band-aids and hail mary moves.   While would be considered blashphamous to most I think we should move Weber, Price, MaxPac and Petry to ensure we build a core to secure that top centre and puck moving dman and look to contend in another 2 to 3 years, otherwise, I just see this team being a hamster on a wheel.

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hab29RETIRED    181
11 minutes ago, DON said:

I think most fans would be happy (if that is important) with Weber, Gallagher, who seem like two good options. Only complaint last time was that Gallagher was just too young. Well, he has bled for Habs for a couple more years now, experienced enough now I would say?

 

There's no way that Gallagher would be given the "C" with Weber being on the team.

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Toronthab    346

I've got a lot of respect for Patches. I don't want to see him  traded. We traded our heart (Subban) and lost our team (Markov) and drive, (Radulov). Patches was / is none of those things but he's a good man and a good captain and a good hockey player. We should keep some team members if we want a team. 

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One of the worst Captains.. he's a floater. Rarely do we see a night of full effort from him. 

If he had half the drive that Gallagher does, he wouldn't have 17 game goaless droughts. 

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xXx..CK..xXx    181

Pacioretty may have only had 4 points in December but Gallagher had 3 points in the same time span. 

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DON    38
11 hours ago, Toronthab said:

I've got a lot of respect for Patches. I don't want to see him  traded. We traded our heart (Subban)Needed a transplant!  and lost our team (Markov)19years of pro hockey is good career- Time & Tide wait for no man! and drive, (Radulov)Mercenary with pretty sketchy track record. Patches was / is none of those things but he's a good man and a good captain and a good hockey player. We should keep some team members if we want a team. 

 

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11 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Pacioretty may have only had 4 points in December but Gallagher had 3 points in the same time span. 

 

Patches' basic dilemma is characteristic of goal scorers. If he's not scoring, he's doing absolutely diddly-squat to impact a game. The same is not true of guys like Gallagher.

 

My questions to those who want to keep Patches are these:

 

1. How do we acquire the assets to become a Cup contender without trading Pacioretty?

2. Do you really think Patches is going to continue to score at an elite level into his mid-30s? Because with his contract coming up, we will have to re-sign him for substantial dollars and substantial term. Myself, I have already raised concerns about whether he is loosing that extra burst of speed to pull away from defenders or pressure them to the outside (both classic Pacioretty moves we have hardly seen all season). Since we are nowhere near contending, it is not worth investing in him at this stage of his career.

 

Trade him before 2018-19 for important positional/younger assets (i.e., a good young C). Reboot your FW core around those assets + Drouin, Galy, Gally, Lehkonen, etc.. Then turn attention to rebuilding the pathetic D with an eye to contending within about 3 years, as that young FW core hits its prime and Price still has a few years left.

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Commandant    669

"If he's not scoring, he's doing absolutely diddly-squat to impact a game. "

 

Not true at all

 

Pacioretty's numbers for controlling possession and driving play, and being good in his own zone, have always been solid during his career.  He's been one of the best wingers in the league in driving possession and playing two way hockey throughout his career. 

Not sure why no one gives him credit for it, but the numbers are there.  Few wingers can drive play, he's one of them... which is probably why throughout his career he's been able to succeed with a centre like Desharnais, or Danault, or whoever. 

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Toronthab    346
2 hours ago, DON said:

 

I sense a demur spirit of beguiling desaccord... 

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Toronthab    346
1 hour ago, Commandant said:

"If he's not scoring, he's doing absolutely diddly-squat to impact a game. "

 

Not true at all

 

Pacioretty's numbers for controlling possession and driving play, and being good in his own zone, have always been solid during his career.  He's been one of the best wingers in the league in driving possession and playing two way hockey throughout his career. 

Not sure why no one gives him credit for it, but the numbers are there.  Few wingers can drive play, he's one of them... which is probably why throughout his career he's been able to succeed with a centre like Desharnais, or Danault, or whoever. 

Is my belief in occasional confirmation bias biased?

 

CONFIRM ME! My inner hockey savant!

 

I should try this backing up of my whimsical attachments with facts some time.

 

But maybe not today.. why spoil my unblemished record  ..:wacko:

 

Is dissonance a sound or the lack of a sound? 

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xXx..CK..xXx    181
3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Patches' basic dilemma is characteristic of goal scorers. If he's not scoring, he's doing absolutely diddly-squat to impact a game. The same is not true of guys like Gallagher.

 

My questions to those who want to keep Patches are these:

 

1. How do we acquire the assets to become a Cup contender without trading Pacioretty?

2. Do you really think Patches is going to continue to score at an elite level into his mid-30s? Because with his contract coming up, we will have to re-sign him for substantial dollars and substantial term. Myself, I have already raised concerns about whether he is loosing that extra burst of speed to pull away from defenders or pressure them to the outside (both classic Pacioretty moves we have hardly seen all season). Since we are nowhere near contending, it is not worth investing in him at this stage of his career.

 

Trade him before 2018-19 for important positional/younger assets (i.e., a good young C). Reboot your FW core around those assets + Drouin, Galy, Gally, Lehkonen, etc.. Then turn attention to rebuilding the pathetic D with an eye to contending within about 3 years, as that young FW core hits its prime and Price still has a few years left.

So as much as the team was not doing well, the 4 assists that were more than Gallagher's point total altogether should be dismissed? "If he's not scoring, it doesn't matter how many assists he gets". He also does play a relatively strong 2 way game.

 

In the same timespan, what did Gallagher's intangibles bring to the team in terms of results? He had a few opposing players frustrated while the Habs continued to struggle. This is not meant an an attack on Gallagher, however.

 

As to your questions...

 

1) Pacioretty can be an asset in and of himself to a cup contender. I personally don't view Lehkonen, Hudon, Plekanec, Petry, Alzner, Benn as players that are necessary core pieces to a cup contender so some of them can be used. Byron, Gallagher, Shaw, Jerabek are players I wouldn't move but could be used for value as well. My core would revolve around players like Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Drouin, Weber, Mete, Price. Again, Gallagher and Byron are also close components to the core.

 

As for the specific trade to improve the core, there's not much use in me throwing out some ideas even though I have thrown out Lehkonen, Hudon & a 1st for some big fish before. Many people view some of the players listed here as "less expendable" than Pacioretty so any of my trades would look either worse or like "not enough". I on the other hand think you could get a solid return for some of them, whether it be an influential defenseman or a top 6 forward.

 

None of this takes into consideration free agent signing possibilities, where we don't have to give anyone up.

 

2) Considering the amount of cap space we had available this year, I'm not too concerned about signing Pacioretty to a more fitting contract than his current one. The lose a step issue is something that should be said for mostly every player, not just Pacioretty himself. Rick Nash has indeed lost a step but Pacioretty still has years ahead of him and it's not like he will become untradeable in the future simply because we've signed him. 

 

I understand that you were stating it as a concern about Pacioretty based on his current strengths and style of play but he can still be extremely effective for many years. What would become important when this happens is to coach around it. No matter his speed, Pacioretty's release will always be elite and so you need to find a way to get him setup in the offensive zone with proper line mates once he loses a step. Adjust to the moment, don't concern yourself with something that may happen in 5-6 years. Of course, if he does become the player you envision sooner rather than later, you've perhaps made an awesome deal shipping him out. But I think that's up for debate.

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Toronthab    346
14 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

So as much as the team was not doing well, the 4 assists that were more than Gallagher's point total altogether should be dismissed? "If he's not scoring, it doesn't matter how many assists he gets". He also does play a relatively strong 2 way game.

 

In the same timespan, what did Gallagher's intangibles bring to the team in terms of results? He had a few opposing players frustrated while the Habs continued to struggle. This is not meant an an attack on Gallagher, however.

 

As to your questions...

 

1) Pacioretty can be an asset in and of himself to a cup contender. I personally don't view Lehkonen, Hudon, Plekanec, Petry, Alzner, Benn as players that are necessary core pieces to a cup contender so some of them can be used. Byron, Gallagher, Shaw, Jerabek are players I wouldn't move but could be used for value as well. My core would revolve around players like Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Drouin, Weber, Mete, Price. Again, Gallagher and Byron are also close components to the core.

 

As for the specific trade to improve the core, there's not much use in me throwing out some ideas even though I have thrown out Lehkonen, Hudon & a 1st for some big fish before. Many people view some of the players listed here as "less expendable" than Pacioretty so any of my trades would look either worse or like "not enough". I on the other hand think you could get a solid return for some of them, whether it be an influential defenseman or a top 6 forward.

 

None of this takes into consideration free agent signing possibilities, where we don't have to give anyone up.

 

2) Considering the amount of cap space we had available this year, I'm not too concerned about signing Pacioretty to a more fitting contract than his current one. The lose a step issue is something that should be said for mostly every player, not just Pacioretty himself. Rick Nash has indeed lost a step but Pacioretty still has years ahead of him and it's not like he will become untradeable in the future simply because we've signed him. 

 

I understand that you were stating it as a concern about Pacioretty based on his current strengths and style of play but he can still be extremely effective for many years. What would become important when this happens is to coach around it. No matter his speed, Pacioretty's release will always be elite and so you need to find a way to get him setup in the offensive zone with proper line mates once he loses a step. Adjust to the moment, don't concern yourself with something that may happen in 5-6 years. Of course, if he does become the player you envision sooner rather than later, you've perhaps made an awesome deal shipping him out. But I think that's up for debate.

If I had any idea what I was talking about I'd bet I'd sound a lot like you. 

 

Unfortunately....

 

Teams exist within time, history a true slice of life. We have a collection now. We need a team. My reason for not wanting to see our captain traded is because he is our captain and we are at team. I do not of course make an absolute of this immediate proposition but our biggest problem is that we are no longer a team. 

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xXx..CK..xXx    181
1 hour ago, Toronthab said:

If I had any idea what I was talking about I'd bet I'd sound a lot like you. 

 

Unfortunately....

 

Teams exist within time, history a true slice of life. We have a collection now. We need a team. My reason for not wanting to see our captain traded is because he is our captain and we are at team. I do not of course make an absolute of this immediate proposition but our biggest problem is that we are no longer a team. 

I agree with you and although it’s been happening more often in the recent past, it’s still not a common practice to trade away your captain. 

 

I personally like Pacioretty for what he can bring to the table but some people might argue that he is partly responsible for us being perceived as a collection and not a team. 

 

That’s not my perception but it seems to be a somewhat popular one. (If it is true that we are a collection and not a team, that falls on management and coaching)

 

Although, it does seem to be mostly for the value he can bring back in a trade that it’s been suggested. 

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