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Commandant

A Plan for the Remainder of the Season, including the Deadline

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xXx..CK..xXx    206
7 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I'm with you, but I just don't believe EDM will move Dreisaitl. They'd be crazy to do it, considering that they have the new Crosby-Malkin configuration at C. IF they are willing to move him, then yes, absolutely, we should do whatever it takes to get him. My assumption is that they won't.

They may not do it, but that’s more the value that Pacioretty or Pacioretty+ should be receiving. Pacioretty is an elite winger, and they have an abundance of centers. 

 

Edmonton fans should be saying “they’d trade Nugent Hopkins+ to us for Pacioretty, but we’d be “crazy” to make that deal.”

 

If Edmonton wouldn’t be fine with McDavid and Pacioretty on the top line and Nugent Hopkins as their second line center, I’m not sure how the Habs would be fine with Nugent Hopkins as their top 6 center, and no McDavid or Pacioretty.

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21 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

They may not do it, but that’s more the value that Pacioretty or Pacioretty+ should be receiving. Pacioretty is an elite winger, and they have an abundance of centers. 

 

Edmonton fans should be saying “they’d trade Nugent Hopkins+ to us for Pacioretty, but we’d be “crazy” to make that deal.”

 

If Edmonton wouldn’t be fine with McDavid and Pacioretty on the top line and Nugent Hopkins as their second line center, I’m not sure how the Habs would be fine with Nugent Hopkins as their top 6 center, and no McDavid or Pacioretty.

 

True, but remember, I am always insisting that the deal would have to be RNH PLUS. The devil would be in that "plus." I don't know anything about EDM's talent pipeline.

 

Patches for Dreisaitl, meanwhile, would be highway robbery. The latter is a PPG player (unlike Patches) AND a centreman (unlike Patches) AND 22 years old (unlike Patches). So just as EDM would have to add significant assets in addition to Nuge, so we would have to add significant assets in addition to Patches.

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hab29RETIRED    193
36 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

They may not do it, but that’s more the value that Pacioretty or Pacioretty+ should be receiving. Pacioretty is an elite winger, and they have an abundance of centers. 

 

Edmonton fans should be saying “they’d trade Nugent Hopkins+ to us for Pacioretty, but we’d be “crazy” to make that deal.”

 

If Edmonton wouldn’t be fine with McDavid and Pacioretty on the top line and Nugent Hopkins as their second line center, I’m not sure how the Habs would be fine with Nugent Hopkins as their top 6 center, and no McDavid or Pacioretty.

Do get Draisaitl, maxpac alone won’t get it done.  It would have to be something like maxpac+Weber for Draisaitl+klefbom/Larsson.

 

id love to see if they’d go for a Weber/maxpac/Gallagher/Schlemko for Draisaitl/Larsson/pulljarvi/1st pick deal

 

I think this would address needs of both clubs.

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hab29RETIRED    193
34 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

True, but remember, I am always insisting that the deal would have to be RNH PLUS. The devil would be in that "plus." I don't know anything about EDM's talent pipeline.

 

Patches for Dreisaitl, meanwhile, would be highway robbery. The latter is a PPG player (unlike Patches) AND a centreman (unlike Patches) AND 22 years old (unlike Patches). So just as EDM would have to add significant assets in addition to Nuge, so we would have to add significant assets in addition to Patches.

Agreed.  Especially with maxpac having only one year left.  Would need to have package that included Weber or Price to get Draisaitl 

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xXx..CK..xXx    206
50 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

True, but remember, I am always insisting that the deal would have to be RNH PLUS. The devil would be in that "plus." I don't know anything about EDM's talent pipeline.

 

Patches for Dreisaitl, meanwhile, would be highway robbery. The latter is a PPG player (unlike Patches) AND a centreman (unlike Patches) AND 22 years old (unlike Patches). So just as EDM would have to add significant assets in addition to Nuge, so we would have to add significant assets in addition to Patches.

 

While I agree with this for the most part...

 

Draisaitl is a career .75 point per game player while Pacioretty is a career .72 point per game player. When it comes to goals, Draisaitl is .26 per game and Pacioretty is .37 per game. We can argue that Draisaitl is still young and has yet to enter his prime, and while I agree, I also felt as though people needed to be careful evaluating him after one monstrous season, as well as a year where he played from time to time on a line with Connor Mcdavid, who won the scoring race by a mile. He does seem to be keeping it up this season, however. 

 

It is also apparent to me that regardless of age, Pacioretty would likely have career seasons playing next to Connor McDavid. I'd look for his career .72 average to start going up on Edmonton. Conversely, Draisaitl's would probably (hopefully not) remain about the same with the Habs. Although the Habs may have to add to the deal, it's not exactly highway robbery. 

 

I think part of the reasoning here that people see moving Pacioretty as a positive is that Pacioretty is ageing and while I hate to bring it up, it's not entirely clear to me why this is the case, when he's within a few months in age of Subban, and people were stating that Subban has many good years of hockey left. I think Pacioretty does have at the very least, 5-6 years of solid hockey in him left.

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xXx..CK..xXx    206
16 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Agreed.  Especially with maxpac having only one year left.  Would need to have package that included Weber or Price to get Draisaitl 

Max Pac only having one year left is indeed a kicker here and why the trade would have to take place this year if it were to ever happen. It still doesn't make much sense though as it would be more likely to happen if the Oilers were in the playoff hunt this season. That way, they'd get at least two years out of him. That's 

 also part of the reason that more pieces would need to be included.

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dlbalr    727
29 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Do get Draisaitl, maxpac alone won’t get it done.  It would have to be something like maxpac+Weber for Draisaitl+klefbom/Larsson.

 

id love to see if they’d go for a Weber/maxpac/Gallagher/Schlemko for Draisaitl/Larsson/pulljarvi/1st pick deal

 

I think this would address needs of both clubs.

 

Edmonton needs to cut payroll for next season with McDavid's new contract kicking in.  This is why Nugent-Hopkins is being tossed around in trade speculation despite how well he has played this year.  This trade offer adds nearly $5 million in payroll for the Oilers.  They'd then have to turn around and trade Nugent-Hopkins to make this work and all of a sudden, a team loaded in centre depth has McDavid and nothing else heading into next season.  This does not remotely address what they need to do at all.  Instead, it would make things a whole lot worse, especially when they get capped out of re-signing Pacioretty one year later and don't have that top prospect like Puljujarvi in the wings to replace him. 

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xXx..CK..xXx    206
13 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

Edmonton needs to cut payroll for next season with McDavid's new contract kicking in.  This is why Nugent-Hopkins is being tossed around in trade speculation despite how well he has played this year.  This trade offer adds nearly $5 million in payroll for the Oilers.  They'd then have to turn around and trade Nugent-Hopkins to make this work and all of a sudden, a team loaded in centre depth has McDavid and nothing else heading into next season.  This does not remotely address what they need to do at all.  Instead, it would make things a whole lot worse, especially when they get capped out of re-signing Pacioretty one year later and don't have that top prospect like Puljujarvi in the wings to replace him. 

I was going to add in my previous post that part of the reason that Pacioretty for Draisaitl makes some sense is due to the fact that Draisaitl makes 8.5 million and McDavid is set to make his 12.5+ million starting next year. On the other hand, Pacioretty makes 4.5 million for a year and I doubt he will command any more than 7 million on his next contract. The additional pieces would just have to be picks and prospects. 

 

With that being said, I personally still don’t see Pacioretty getting traded and I guess it does make the most sense from the Oilers’ perspective to trade away Nugent-Hopkins and his 6 million, rather than Draisaitl and his 8.5. I just don’t see that trade partner being us in the end though, unless Gallagher is going the other way. 

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27 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I was going to add in my previous post that part of the reason that Pacioretty for Draisaitl makes some sense is due to the fact that Draisaitl makes 8.5 million and McDavid is set to make his 12.5+ million starting next year. On the other hand, Pacioretty makes 4.5 million for a year and I doubt he will command any more than 7 million on his next contract. The additional pieces would just have to be picks and prospects. 

 

With that being said, I personally still don’t see Pacioretty getting traded and I guess it does make the most sense from the Oilers’ perspective to trade away Nugent-Hopkins and his 6 million, rather than Draisaitl and his 8.5. I just don’t see that trade partner being us in the end though, unless Gallagher is going the other way. 

 

Yep, if the goal is to keep bobbing around as a 1st-round exit for the forseeable future, then trading no core guys and reinvesting heavily in Pacioretty as he enters the back-9 of his career is definitely the way to go.

 

In terms of EDM, I maintain that they will not move Dreisaitl but may well move RNH. That just seems far more realistic.

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xXx..CK..xXx    206
23 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Yep, if the goal is to keep bobbing around as a 1st-round exit for the forseeable future, then trading no core guys and reinvesting heavily in Pacioretty as he enters the back-9 of his career is definitely the way to go.

 

In terms of EDM, I maintain that they will not move Dreisaitl but may well move RNH. That just seems far more realistic.

Is Gallagher not a core guy? I mentioned that I would move him for Nugent-Hopkins if we badly need a center. 

 

What I don’t fully believe in is the notion that we need to trade, literally our best players in order to contend. “Pacioretty is our best forward, so let’s trade him for 2 prospects.” “Petry is our best defenseman outside of Weber, so let’s trade him for 2 prospects.” “Weber is our best defenseman and he’s getting old, so let’s trade him for 2 prospects.”

 

”We will surely win, because the prospects are younger!”

 

I am fully on board with hearing proposals with actual names, that might open my eyes to seeing the benefit.

 

As of now, I’ve mostly seen people clamoring to trade our better players without even considering what the return may be. Furthermore, there’s little consideration to the fact that such a trade may actually hurt our future. There have been no proposals that I’ve seen which I’ve liked. Nugent Hopkins+ makes some sense in theory, but the plus would have to be pretty darn good and I’ve yet to see what that plus would be. Not to mention, any additional players of value may tilt the trade into not being favorable from Edmonton’s standpoint.

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BlueKross    26

I am in no way a Bergevin fan. I do think we are not that far away.  We are forced to bring a half a team of young guys along just to make the payroll work. For six years now, our guys never got the experience other teams got in the playoffs in the AHL. Our guys are simply behind. This year we are taking our knocks. Next year, we should be a lot better. The deadline brings a time of year that you can get a premium value for most players. You take premium value if you get it and move on.

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8 hours ago, BlueKross said:

I am in no way a Bergevin fan. I do think we are not that far away.  We are forced to bring a half a team of young guys along just to make the payroll work. For six years now, our guys never got the experience other teams got in the playoffs in the AHL. Our guys are simply behind. This year we are taking our knocks. Next year, we should be a lot better. The deadline brings a time of year that you can get a premium value for most players. You take premium value if you get it and move on.

 

Who has kept a coach universally reviled as incompetent in charge of the AHL team? Oh, yeah. Bergevin.

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xXx..CK..xXx    206
55 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Who has kept a coach universally reviled as incompetent in charge of the AHL team? Oh, yeah. Bergevin.

Perhaps Bergevin is just grooming him with extra preparation until the timing is right to fire Julien, and replace him with Lefebvre. :)

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31 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Perhaps Bergevin is just grooming him with extra preparation until the timing is right to fire Julien, and replace him with Lefebvre. :)

 

I've complained about this before. Because of the "bilingual" requirement, we have a competitive disadvantage with every other organization when it comes to coaching talent. It is uniquely important for the Montreal Canadiens, then, to use their farm system as a platform for future NHL coaching. The AHL team needs to be a pipeline for bilingual coaches. That way, when it's time to fire our existing coach, we have a ready-trained bilingual replacement. This is what happened with Pat Burns and Claude Julien, and that's also where Guy Boucher came from. 

 

By protecting his bum-buddy Lefebvre from all accountability despite his manifest unsuitability - he is not regarded by anyone, to my knowledge, as a serious NHL coaching prospect and couldn't even win an assistant coaching gig, FFS - Bergevin has further corroded the competitive position of the Habs in a small but significant way. It typifies how he runs the organization, placing more of a priority upon his own ego and protecting his chums than demanding excellence.

 

(On a related note, I don't understand why Bergevin gave Julien a 5-year contract. All that does is handcuff our flexibility. Surely Julien would have taken less? And if not, then dammit, we should have had a capable AHL coach ready to move up and take over the reins. MB's irresponsibility just drives me crazy).

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Commandant    715
33 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

(On a related note, I don't understand why Bergevin gave Julien a 5-year contract. All that does is handcuff our flexibility. Surely Julien would have taken less? And if not, then dammit, we should have had a capable AHL coach ready to move up and take over the reins. MB's irresponsibility just drives me crazy).

 

 

Julien likely was not taking less.  

 

It was reported that there was significant interest in Julien, from the Habs, from the Islanders, from Vegas (who didn't have Gallant yet) and others.  he was considered the top coach on the market. 

 

5 years at big money was what it took to bring him in. 

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Metallica    2

Do you think the problem is that as an organization we don't look to the future of the team as much as we should do? We use to with Bob, but since he left we have stop doing it.  Coach's and gm's should be brought up through the organization but we don't do that. Players once they hit there 30's we should be drafting and developing players to eventually take over there starting jobs once play starts to decline. But we let contracts run out or have to over pay because there's no one else better in the system. I think this needs to change either with this GM or a new one.

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7 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Julien likely was not taking less.  

 

It was reported that there was significant interest in Julien, from the Habs, from the Islanders, from Vegas (who didn't have Gallant yet) and others.  he was considered the top coach on the market. 

 

5 years at big money was what it took to bring him in. 

 

Fair enough - but there should have been a solid AHL option ready to go, should the org have decided not to have tied itself to such a bloated deal. Thanks to MB's approach, this wasn't even an option.

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Commandant    715
27 minutes ago, Metallica said:

Do you think the problem is that as an organization we don't look to the future of the team as much as we should do? We use to with Bob, but since he left we have stop doing it.  Coach's and gm's should be brought up through the organization but we don't do that. Players once they hit there 30's we should be drafting and developing players to eventually take over there starting jobs once play starts to decline. But we let contracts run out or have to over pay because there's no one else better in the system. I think this needs to change either with this GM or a new one.

 

The draft is about accumulating talent, not picking by position to replace a player who is getting older. 

 

Draft TALENT.  Take the best player available.  And then you can trade players. 

 

Look at Nashville.  They keep drafting defencemen, and have traded defencemen for Ryan Johanssen and Kyle turris their top 2 centres. 

 

But sure, the AHL team needs to be grooming a coach of the future. 

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Metallica    2
1 minute ago, Commandant said:

 

The draft is about accumulating talent, not picking by position to replace a player who is getting older. 

 

Draft TALENT.  Take the best player available.  And then you can trade players. 

 

Look at Nashville.  They keep drafting defencemen, and have traded defencemen for Ryan Johanssen and Kyle turris their top 2 centres. 

You draft best available talent that fits your Team needs and add depth. You can't just keep drafting best available players and not fill holes. What if you can't find the types of holes you need by trade??? If for the next 3 drafts the best available player  is a gaoldtender, are you going to draft a goaltender 3 years in a row? Or are you going to get the best available center with your pick to fill a need?? Even if the goaltender is ranked higher than the center all three years.

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Commandant    715

I'm going to trade the pick to a team that wants the goaltender and move back a couple spots. 

 

Or I'm going to draft a goaltender and trade lindgren or mcniven or whoever. 

 

A drafted goalie won't make the NHL for five years, you don't draft by need.  Thats the stupidest way to draft. 

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I'm in the BPA camp. But you asked about the wider issue, and on the 'development' front I think the Habs' problem has been that if you're not going to tank, then you absolutely need to find gems - core players - outside the first round. E.g., Subban (2nd round), Gallagher (5th round). They don't seem to have been doing that post-Gauthier, and so we see a parade of 'OK' young players, but nothing more than that. You can say this reflects out lack of high-end picks, and fair enough, but if you're not gonna tank, you have to be better than merely competent at drafting and development.

 

A deeper problem is the lack of a culture of accountability in management. Lefebvre has a blank cheque to stink out the AHL with no consequences, Therrien is kept on long after his best-by date, Julien is guaranteed milliions of dollars for five years, etc.. MB says "blame me," but does not do anything to reflect any actual sense of responsibility for failures, and in fact goes on to blame first PK Subban and then the team in general. So, competent but unexceptional drafting, managerial complacency - and that's without even getting into a single one of MB's "hockey" mistakes.

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mineral    6

I don't know how you guys feel, but i would do a Pacioretty / McDonough straight up. Maybe throw in a 4th or 5th just to sweeten it. The back-end needs such a retooling, and i see nothing of a top 2 on the left-side in our cupboard. Free agent pool looks like crap too.

 

 

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Metallica    2

All I am saying is Bergevin backed himself into a corner/handcuffed himself and the rest of the league knows it , which is why he finds it hard to make trades. If he would of filled needs and added depth through the draft he wouldn't be in this situation. You can't rely on the other 31 teams to help you fill your team needs.

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Commandant    715

Every team in the league knows that Nashville had too many defencemen and no centres.  They got the trades done cause the defencemen were talented and teams wanted them. 

 

No one is going to bail bergevin out and give him a centre for cheap, I agree. 

 

But if you have talent that solves another team's issues.... a defenceman that Colorado needed on the Duchene/Turris deal... a defenceman Columbus needed in the Jones/Johanssen swap, you can find a team to deal with. 

 

Teams want to solve their own needs, fill their own holes.  If you have talented assets they need, they will trade with you. 

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Metallica    2
4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Every team in the league knows that Nashville had too many defencemen and no centres.  They got the trades done cause the defencemen were talented and teams wanted them. 

 

No one is going to bail bergevin out and give him a centre for cheap, I agree. 

 

But if you have talent that solves another team's issues.... a defenceman that Colorado needed on the Duchene/Turris deal... a defenceman Columbus needed in the Jones/Johanssen swap, you can find a team to deal with. 

 

Teams want to solve their own needs, fill their own holes.  If you have talented assets they need, they will trade with you. 

They also had DEPTH we don't edmonton had talent forwards no D what happened to them??? It doesn't always turn out the way you hope. Which is why you shouldn't try to rely on other teams, Stop looking at Nashville.

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