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Commandant

A Plan for the Remainder of the Season, including the Deadline

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Davehab    24

Ya at the draft Talent trumps everything else.  You pick the most talented player.....period.  If that is a position that you need then all the better.

 

in this draft if we get a 3-6 overall pick you just take the best winger that is left on the board.   If we could get another 1st rounder in the teens it would be great

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Commandant    705

Guys can be close but there are differences.  You pay your scouts millions to find those differences.  Pick the best player.

 

Also what is a need now may not be a need by the time a player develops.  Which is why you dont draft for need.  This isnt the nfl where your players are expected to contribute right away

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I would have thought the Price pick would have settled the "BPA" argument for Habs' fans. Remember all the so-called "experts" going on about what a godawful pick that was, partly because the Habs had Theodore and didn't need goaltending? Thank God Bob Gainey didn't think like them or we'd all be ripping out our hair over the disastrous "Gilbert Brule" draft year.

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Commandant    705
18 minutes ago, Metallica said:

Thats the point I am trying to get across is that we have passed on team needs in the draft and missed out on filling big hole's. I get drafting best available player but at some point you need to address team needs if you can through trade OT free agency. Thats the problem here, this organization through trade and/or free agency can't address team needs. So for some reason they don't do it through the draft.  We have pasted on our team needs in the draft and its hurt us the last 10 years. Does that fall on the GM or your head scout?

 

If you draft well you have a surplus of assets and can pull the trigger on trades that need to be made.

 

If you have the assets you can pull the trigger on a deal for rnh or seguin or johanssen or duchene or turris or carter or whoever.

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DON    42

And of course this year is said the 1st round lacks any real #1 centre prospects. 

 

So, I guess we need to hope for 3rd-5th range and take a winger; Svechnikov, Zadina or Tkachuk.

 

 

 

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illWill    475
1 minute ago, Commandant said:

This isnt the nfl where your players are expected to contribute right away

 

No, but it's the new age NHL where guys contribute at a younger age than they ever did in the history of the league. Assuming Montreal picks top 10 this year, that player is probably on the team next season or the one after. I am going out on a limb to say that they will still need a center considering they've needed one since Saku Koivu busted his knee, got cancer and almost went blind. 

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Commandant    705
2 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

No, but it's the new age NHL where guys contribute at a younger age than they ever did in the history of the league. Assuming Montreal picks top 10 this year, that player is probably on the team next season or the one after. I am going out on a limb to say that they will still need a center considering they've needed one since Saku Koivu busted his knee, got cancer and almost went blind. 

 

And there is not a single top centre worthy of a top pick.

 

So if you want to reach on joe veleno or barrett hayton or kupari... feel free to do so.

 

But in my mind thats a huge mistake if we are picking top 10

 

 

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17 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

they've needed one since Saku Koivu busted his knee, got cancer and almost went blind. 

 

:blink: What a star-crossed career that guy had! But it was the blown knee that really transformed him from a budding top-5 superstar into "merely" what he became. (Wistful sigh...)

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illWill    475
9 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I would have thought the Price pick would have settled the "BPA" argument for Habs' fans. Remember all the so-called "experts" going on about what a godawful pick that was, partly because the Habs had Theodore and didn't need goaltending? Thank God Bob Gainey didn't think like them or we'd all be ripping out our hair over the disastrous "Gilbert Brule" draft year.

 

For every BPA example a guy can cite an example where it didnt work out. Drafting is a combination of scouting, development and how that player fits in the organization. Yes talent is definitely a factor but it isn't the end all be all

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illWill    475
6 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

And there is not a single top centre worthy of a top pick.

 

So if you want to reach on joe veleno or barrett hayton or kupari... feel free to do so.

 

But in my mind thats a huge mistake if we are picking top 10

 

 

 

I don't know much about the upcoming draft, so I can't comment on the specifics. But if it's a significant reach to grab a center then perhaps it wouldn't be beneficial to do so. It's all relative. I'm not saying just pick centers until one works out. But at the same time if they don't pick centers, it's definitely more difficult to have an impact center. 

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Commandant    705
1 hour ago, illWill said:

 

I don't know much about the upcoming draft, so I can't comment on the specifics. But if it's a significant reach to grab a center then perhaps it wouldn't be beneficial to do so. It's all relative. I'm not saying just pick centers until one works out. But at the same time if they don't pick centers, it's definitely more difficult to have an impact center. 

 

Right now, they have to demand a Centre prospect like a Sam Steel, or Robert Thomas, or other centre prospect in any Pacioretty deal.  Thats a better bet than trying to draft a centre this year. 

 

Chances are your BPA will be either a winger, or a RHD.... the only LHD (the other big need) that are top 7 or 8 are Dahlin and Quinn Hughes. 

Some might think that Wahlstrom is a centre, and he switched between RW and Centre on the Under 17 team in 2016-17, but this season he's almost exclusively a RW, with Jack Hughes (the 2019 likely 1st pick) as the center of his line.  I like Wahlstrom a lot, but I'm not convinced he's a centre. 

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 Would love to get Tkachuk.. love love love

 

As far as BPA available goes.. should ALWAYS be the case.. look at 2013, Habs reached for McCaron and the BPA (arguably) was Shea Theodore. 

Oh what could have been...

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1 minute ago, Commandant said:

 

 

 

Chances are your BPA will be either a winger, or a RHD.... the only LHD (the other big need) that are top 7 or 8 are Dahlin and Quinn Hughes. 

Some might think that Wahlstrom is a centre, and he switched between RW and Centre on the Under 17 team in 2016-17, but this season he's almost exclusively a RW, with Jack Hughes (the 2019 likely 1st pick) as the center of his line.  I like Wahlstrom a lot, but I'm not convinced he's a centre. 

 

Completely agree.. get a C for Pacs and draft a top 5 winger. 

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Commandant    705
14 minutes ago, TheDriveFor25 said:

 

Completely agree.. get a C for Pacs and draft a top 5 winger. 

 

Get a C for Pacs, and take the BPA.   Yeah, we'll need a winger to replace Pac, but our d is a disgrace too, and we can use a high end puck moving defenceman too.... Left Side or Right side,  if we pick 4 and Boqvist is there (top 3 being Dahlin, Svech, Zadina), i'd have no problem taking Boqvist for example. 

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xXx..CK..xXx    201
14 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Get a C for Pacs, and take the BPA.   Yeah, we'll need a winger to replace Pac, but our d is a disgrace too, and we can use a high end puck moving defenceman too.... Left Side or Right side,  if we pick 4 and Boqvist is there (top 3 being Dahlin, Svech, Zadina), i'd have no problem taking Boqvist for example. 

Hopefully that winger who replaces Pacioretty is James Neal, Taylor Hall, Filip Forsberg, Alex Ovechkin, Jeff Skinner, Gabriel Landesgog, Jamie Benn, Brad Marchand.....

 

Otherwise he’s not getting replaced. 

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Meller93    134
18 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Get a C for Pacs, and take the BPA.   Yeah, we'll need a winger to replace Pac, but our d is a disgrace too, and we can use a high end puck moving defenceman too.... Left Side or Right side,  if we pick 4 and Boqvist is there (top 3 being Dahlin, Svech, Zadina), i'd have no problem taking Boqvist for example. 

Is this a deep draft?

 

We have three 2nds - Habs, Caps and hawks. This should end up something like one high 30’s and a couple between 45-55.

 

We also have 6! More picks between the 3rd and 5th rounds depending on how some conditions work out. 

 

This doesn’t even include the possible ones MB will pick up. (Likely not trading away this year.)

 

My question is, should we package some of these for an extra first round pick?

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Commandant    705
19 minutes ago, Meller93 said:

Is this a deep draft?

 

We have three 2nds - Habs, Caps and hawks. This should end up something like one high 30’s and a couple between 45-55.

 

We also have 6! More picks between the 3rd and 5th rounds depending on how some conditions work out. 

 

This doesn’t even include the possible ones MB will pick up. (Likely not trading away this year.)

 

My question is, should we package some of these for an extra first round pick?

 

We do not have 6 more picks

We have a third rounder

We have either our 4th or the Kings 5th
we have either the 4th or 5th from the oilers

we have our 5th. 


Thats 4 picks between the 3rd and 5th... its a matter of when..  We don't get both picks in the Kings and Oilers trades, its one or the other. 

 

As for the question, Its a good draft, but not a special one.   Its really strong on Ds, unusually weak on Cs, good but not weak on Wings, weak on goalies. 

Due to the number of early picks, don't be surprised if some of the picks added in our trades are 2019 picks.  Get some extra seconds for this year, and next year too. 

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Commandant    705
23 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Hopefully that winger who replaces Pacioretty is James Neal, Taylor Hall, Filip Forsberg, Alex Ovechkin, Jeff Skinner, Gabriel Landesgog, Jamie Benn, Brad Marchand.....

 

Otherwise he’s not getting replaced. 


If we can get a true #1 c, and a lesser winger, we might be further ahead. 

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illWill    475
48 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Right now, they have to demand a Centre prospect like a Sam Steel, or Robert Thomas, or other centre prospect in any Pacioretty deal.  Thats a better bet than trying to draft a centre this year. 

 

Chances are your BPA will be either a winger, or a RHD.... the only LHD (the other big need) that are top 7 or 8 are Dahlin and Quinn Hughes. 

Some might think that Wahlstrom is a centre, and he switched between RW and Centre on the Under 17 team in 2016-17, but this season he's almost exclusively a RW, with Jack Hughes (the 2019 likely 1st pick) as the center of his line.  I like Wahlstrom a lot, but I'm not convinced he's a centre. 

 

A hypothetical deal involving our captain who is one of the league's best goal scorers for an unproven potential center is not an advantageous scenario however you slice it. First off, the deal has to happen, which is debatable if it is even plausible. Then the return has to live up to it's potential, which may not happen either. That is based on as much hope as a draft. I don't understand how that is a better route than drafting a highly touted center for fixing what is, a gaping hole at center. And even if trading a 30 goal scoring winger for a potential top 6 center works out, then you're left with a hole created by trading a 30 goal scoring winger. A center prospect is a center prospect, regardless if drafted by the Habs or by another organization. 

 

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Commandant    705
6 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

A hypothetical deal involving our captain who is one of the league's best goal scorers for an unproven potential center is not an advantageous scenario however you slice it. First off, the deal has to happen, which is debatable if it is even plausible. Then the return has to live up to it's potential, which may not happen either. That is based on as much hope as a draft. I don't understand how that is a better route than drafting a highly touted center for fixing what is, a gaping hole at center. And even if trading a 30 goal scoring winger for a potential top 6 center works out, then you're left with a hole created by trading a 30 goal scoring winger. A center prospect is a center prospect, regardless if drafted by the Habs or by another organization. 

 

 

The centre prospect is one piece they have to get in the deal.  They aren't doing this trade 1 for 1.

 

Sam Steel, another prospect, a first round pick. 

 

Robert Thomas, Vince Dunn, a 2nd round pick. 


This is what you are looking for....  Not something 1 for 1. 

And I'd take Sam Steel and Robert Thomas over any centre in the 2018 draft.  Combo of the fact that they have improved and are better than where they were drafted, and no centre in 2018 looks that good. 

Joe Veleno is probably the best centre in this draft, and I see him topping out as a good two-way second liner if he's developed properly.

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illWill    475
6 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

The centre prospect is one piece they have to get in the deal.  They aren't doing this trade 1 for 1.

 

 

My point is why give up a valuable asset like Pacioretty for a prospect, when they can just draft one on their own? I understand future salary cap implications when resigning him, but unless you're getting a slam dunk player that can play top 6 center for the Habs, the deal is terrible. It's easy to say draft BPA and then we can trade that player for equal value. But that's not the way it usually works. Edmonton needed a defenseman, so they traded Hall for Larsson. Whoops. Even Seth Jones is the better player in the Nashville deal for Johanson. If your a team in need, you have to give up a bit more. Montreal is a team in need and everyone knows it. Nobody is going to help Bergevin out here, they know he is hanging off a cliff. 

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Commandant    705

1) The prospects I'm looking at are better than the best centre in this draft IMO.

2) You said earlier the NHL is a young man's game, especially at forward.  I don't want to re-sign Pacioretty for 7 or 8 years at 7 or 8 million in 1 years time.  If someone gives me a package get it now. 

3) Yes, prospects aren't sure things.  Thats why more is better.  Get a Thomas, get a Poehling, Ikonen, Evans in the system.... if one is BPA at one of our picks, draft one in the second or third round.  Get a bunch of C prospects is going to increase your odds of one turning out. 

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illWill    475
17 minutes ago, Commandant said:

1) The prospects I'm looking at are better than the best centre in this draft IMO.

2) You said earlier the NHL is a young man's game, especially at forward.  I don't want to re-sign Pacioretty for 7 or 8 years at 7 or 8 million in 1 years time.  If someone gives me a package get it now. 

3) Yes, prospects aren't sure things.  Thats why more is better.  Get a Thomas, get a Poehling, Ikonen, Evans in the system.... if one is BPA at one of our picks, draft one in the second or third round.  Get a bunch of C prospects is going to increase your odds of one turning out. 

 

1) That's fair if you think we can get a better center prospect than what's available in this draft. 

2) You can't use my own analogy against myself because I don't think trading Pacioretty for a prospect will work out the way we want it to. Drafting an 18 year old center and having him contribute right away is much different than trading a top goal scoring 29 year old. I also don't like the thoughts of signing him to a long term deal at 7+, but I'd like to get back something a little more proven. Can't screw up a Patches deal. 

3) That's what started this debate, selecting BPA or filling holes. We agree that it's a numbers game, that the more center prospects we have, the better. So I'm saying if we reach a bit and grab a center in the draft, then that increases our chance of having a top center. You don't have to mess around and make trades that are likely going to be in the opposition's favor because they know you're in a bad spot

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Commandant    705

I don't agree that the trades are likely going to be in the opposition's favor. 

 

If you have talented pieces that other teams want, you leverage that.... as Tampa has done with a surplus of forwards and need on defence, as Nashville has done with a surplus of defence and needs at centre, as pittsburgh did when they got Kunitz for Whitney, there are more too.  

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Trizzak    579
2 hours ago, Commandant said:

Guys can be close but there are differences.  You pay your scouts millions to find those differences.  Pick the best player.

 

Also what is a need now may not be a need by the time a player develops.  Which is why you dont draft for need.  This isnt the nfl where your players are expected to contribute right away


Please don't try to pigeonhole the argument into drafting for NHL need. Ya, we need centers in the NHL. We also need centers in the AHL and juniors. Center depth in this entire organization is the absolute drizzling shits. We haven't had a good centerman drafted and developed in our system since Plekanec in 2001, so you'll have to forgive me for not banking on Poehling and a prayer that Bergevin/the-next-GM can trade their way into quality centermen. 

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