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Habs vs Caps - 7:30 EST.


Trizzak

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1 hour ago, Habopotamus said:

It's tough to swallow when you're a Pacioretty fan, I'm sure, but it's time to create a core that can win together.

 

A player of Max's "calibre", with a contract as cap friendly as his, doesn't come on the market very often. So it creates an opportunity for even a cap strickened team get in on a bidding war. 

 

There's an opportunity here to acquire some major pieces, that this team desperately needs to move forward and become a legitimate contender. 

 

It makes zero sense to keep Pacioretty when this team is in the state it's in. Trade your assets that will garner young talent and start building your core again.  Accept defeat and move on. 

 

Unless of course you want to keep watching mediocre hockey and let your best assets wither away on a team that has too many holes to fill through free agency.

 

I agree with the idea that moving him because he has huge value and because now is the time to capitalize on that value, and you extract a number of key prospects and top picks for him. 

 

I don't agree with the narratives of he's not a leader, he's not clutch, and all the other crap that gets spouted about the guy. 

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39 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Patches is 29. You think he'll still be elite in five years? Please. And you think he'll throw away millions of dollars again just to please Bergevin? Please, again.

 

This is not about blame. It's about asset management as far as I'm concerned. The only way I keep Patches is if we sign Tavares. Otherwise, let him enter his declining years with a contending organization, in return for younger core pieces.

 

The reality is that yes, most players decline past 30.  This is a young man's league right now.  If you can get serious young talent, you move him. 

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

With Bergevin in charge? Nah, it's not realistic.

 

My viewpoint on hockey these days is pretty simple. If you're not a top 5 club, or you're not building to becoming a top 5 club? You need to tear down. The losses of Markov and Radulov after trading Subban for Weber has firmly put Montreal in a position of loss. There is no realistic addition that can be made to the club to turn them around. Add Tavares and this is still a club with a major lack of competent players on the left side of their defence. 

 

Tear the club down, rebuild through the draft, shoot for 2020-2021 to start going back for a Cup.

It is a valid point of view. For me, it is too difficult to abdicate and accept that scenario. I want to believe that a "battle hardened" MB, if he survives this year, will do the right thing. I am a big believer on giving people a chance to redeem themselves after failure. I think MB is honest and that he truly wants to win a cup.

 

The Habs are two players away: a tavares-like center and a Subban-like left-D (I know, I know) 

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8 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

It is a valid point of view. For me, it is too difficult to abdicate and accept that scenario. I want to believe that a "battle hardened" MB, if he survives this year, will do the right thing. I am a big believer on giving people a chance to redeem themselves after failure. I think MB is honest and that he truly wants to win a cup.

 

The Habs are two players away: a tavares-like center and a Subban-like left-D (I know, I know) 

 

The Habs need:

 

- A top six driver

- A first line LD

- A second line LD

- A first line centre

 

They need all that while clearing out guys who cost too much for what they bring, because them existing on the roster holds others back, because these are essentially big money roles.

 

Also, giving people a chance to redeem themselves? Bergevin had that. It was 16-17. He had to fire Therrien to save the season and the team extinguished in the first round against a team who got lit up by the freakin' Senators. He had his chance.

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14 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

The Habs need:

 

- A top six driver

- A first line LD

- A second line LD

- A first line centre

 

They need all that while clearing out guys who cost too much for what they bring, because them existing on the roster holds others back, because these are essentially big money roles.

 

Also, giving people a chance to redeem themselves? Bergevin had that. It was 16-17. He had to fire Therrien to save the season and the team extinguished in the first round against a team who got lit up by the freakin' Senators. He had his chance.

I get it, he had his chance. It sucks to be a fan of a team that will go into a rebuild and not contend for another 5 years. That's a long time.

 

Whoever comes in needs to be a wizard or have superpowers to turn it around in less than 5 years. Firing MB and hiring anyone else is just setting us up to be disappointed again in 5 years from now.

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Just now, alfredoh2009 said:

I get it, he had his chance. It sucks to be a fan of a team that will go into a rebuild and not contend for another 5 years. That's a long time.

 

Whoever comes in needs to be a wizard or have superpowers to turn it around in less than 5 years. Firing MB and hiring anyone else is just setting us up to be disappointed again in 5 years from now.

And keeping MB any longer is setting us up for another 15 if failure, because that’s how long it took to clean up Houle’s mess.

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20 hours ago, Trizzak said:

Oh hey, a game tonight!

 

Niemi is in, L. Shaw is in.

 

Forward lines are a variation of trios, and some of them even include a centre!

 

Defense pairings are mostly just sadness.

 

Sorry dlbalr. This is the best I can do on mobile.

 

After a GDT like this, what will you have in store for the encore for tonight's game?

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33 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

And keeping MB any longer is setting us up for another 15 if failure, because that’s how long it took to clean up Houle’s mess.

I do not think we ever recovered: we have not won a cup in all those years after.

 

I do not remember the André Savard years (was he GM when Saku got hurt against the Hurricanes?), but then we ran Gainey out for being a terrible GM. Gauthier was a disaster. Now MB.

 

What I am saying is that I want to keep a GM for a couple of generations of players, and I believe Bergevin is a good as any. Including making mistakes

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26 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I do not think we ever recovered: we have not won a cup in all those years after.

 

I do not remember the André Savard years (was he GM when Saku got hurt against the Hurricanes?), but then we ran Gainey out for being a terrible GM. Gauthier was a disaster. Now MB.

 

What I am saying is that I want to keep a GM for a couple of generations of players, and I believe Bergevin is a good as any. Including making mistakes

How do you figure Bergevin is as good as any. We're about to miss the playoffs in 2 of the last 3 years. With last year being a embarrassing for round knockout.

 

We have had trouble scoring since Bergevin took over, no number one centre since Bergevin took over, gone through 2 coaches since Bergevin took over, have had a terrible time drafting players since Bergevin took over, and have lost some quality players because of Bergevin's stubbornness. 

 

Explain to me where this guy is as good as any g.m out there ? 

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28 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I do not think we ever recovered: we have not won a cup in all those years after.

 

I do not remember the André Savard years (was he GM when Saku got hurt against the Hurricanes?), but then we ran Gainey out for being a terrible GM. Gauthier was a disaster. Now MB.

 

What I am saying is that I want to keep a GM for a couple of generations of players, and I believe Bergevin is a good as any. Including making mistakes

Gainey brought us back to respectability.  We were a laughing stock until gainey came in.  I supported gainey until he traded for Gomez and cast aside koivu.

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The only possible reason for keeping Bergevin would be on the theory that he will learn from his mistakes and therefore grow into being a good GM. But I find that a ridiculously forgiving approach, gambling the next decade on a man who inherited a winning hand and turned it into absolute garbage - King Midas in reverse. Also, Bergevin's modus operandi seems to have been driven by ego and personal loyalty rather than winning. That suggests the wrong CHARACTER for a Cup-worthy GM.

 

I don't think we need a 5-year rebuild. We have lots of good young FWs. If we can flip Patches for true core players around which that young group of FWs can coalesce, then the only problem becomes the blueline. That's no minor problem, admittedly, but I see no reason why, with some adroit moves, we can't start doing real damage by, say, three years.

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25 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

The only possible reason for keeping Bergevin would be on the theory that he will learn from his mistakes and therefore grow into being a good GM. But I find that a ridiculously forgiving approach, gambling the next decade on a man who inherited a winning hand and turned it into absolute garbage - King Midas in reverse. Also, Bergevin's modus operandi seems to have been driven by ego and personal loyalty rather than winning. That suggests the wrong CHARACTER for a Cup-worthy GM.

 

I don't think we need a 5-year rebuild. We have lots of good young FWs. If we can flip Patches for true core players around which that young group of FWs can coalesce, then the only problem becomes the blueline. That's no minor problem, admittedly, but I see no reason why, with some adroit moves, we can't start doing real damage by, say, three years.

 

2018, 2019, and 2020 all have potential franchise players going first overall. 2020 I've heard people tell me could be a very deep draft, with Quinton Byfield possibly generational and Alexis Lafreniere the best French Canadian centre since Giroux. You land a first overall in any of those drafts and you're changing things. You get Top 5 picks? Wow. Serious chance to turn it around.

 

That's why I want to tear the club down. Make those picks as high as possible. 2018 isn't good for high end centres, but 2019 and 2020 will be. We got three second round picks this summer too. By 2020-2021, if this team gets a GM ready to strip the club and get to "Below Buffalo" levels in the Atlantic, we got a real shot of turning the club around.

 

But if Bergevin gets a second chance and they try to bounce back or something, this process could take longer. If we get a GM who wants to turn the team around, it'll definitely take longer. We cannot afford a Dave Nonis situation. There are some special players in the next three years.

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The team's biggest issue is scoring and Pacioretty is our best goal scorer. I do understand trading him for something that includes a first round pick but there are an overwhelming amount of scenarios where trading Pacioretty ends up hurting the team in both the short term and long term as well, and people are discounting that. 

 

With 8 million in cap space, there's room to manouever without losing your most impactful forward. I hold on to Pacioretty unless the return involves a top 6 center, a top 4 left handed defenseman, and a 1st round pick. 

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6 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

The team's biggest issue is scoring and Pacioretty is our best goal scorer. I do understand trading him for something that includes a first round pick but there are an overwhelming amount of scenarios where trading Pacioretty ends up hurting the team in both the short term and long term as well, and people are discounting that. 

 

With 8 million in cap space, there's room to manouever without losing your most impactful forward. I hold on to Pacioretty unless the return involves a top 6 center, a top 4 left handed defenseman, and a 1st round pick. 

 

Then you are holding onto Pacioretty, and allowing him to become a free agent. So either he walks and you get nothing for him because your demands were ridiculous, or you re-sign him and now you got a veteran on the wrong side of his career and are paying for his previous value priced contract (which he fired his agent for). 

 

I would have traded Pacioretty seasons ago, when his value was even higher. That might have got you a top six centre. Today your best bet is a prospect centre who could grow into a top six centre. Maybe the Kings want to turn around their season and send Vilardi for Pacioretty? Doubtful.

 

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9 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

The team's biggest issue is scoring and Pacioretty is our best goal scorer. I do understand trading him for something that includes a first round pick but there are an overwhelming amount of scenarios where trading Pacioretty ends up hurting the team in both the short term and long term as well, and people are discounting that. 

 

With 8 million in cap space, there's room to manouever without losing your most impactful forward. I hold on to Pacioretty unless the return involves a top 6 center, a top 4 left handed defenseman, and a 1st round pick. 

With MB that $8m in cap space will be wasted on more Alzner and Shaw contracts.

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12 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

With MB that $8m in cap space will be wasted on more Alzner and Shaw contracts.

 

Some people here are cool with that. Danault will need a new contract this summer, two seasons of 40 points, can't wait to see his $3.5M deal for three years.

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4 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

I agree with the idea that moving him because he has huge value and because now is the time to capitalize on that value, and you extract a number of key prospects and top picks for him. 

 

I don't agree with the narratives of he's not a leader, he's not clutch, and all the other crap that gets spouted about the guy. 

This is more or less what I was getting at. I want elite returns of be its to be traded. Because he is an elite player. I have I have no individual devotion for pacioretty. If you can get a some promising prospects, you trade him, if you can't, you sign him and find another way to fill the holes. I don't think you trade him because he is a bad leader and doesn't set up plays. You either trade or retain him as the elite goal scorer that he is. 

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5 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

This is more or less what I was getting at. I want elite returns of be its to be traded. Because he is an elite player. I have I have no individual devotion for pacioretty. If you can get a some promising prospects, you trade him, if you can't, you sign him and find another way to fill the holes. I don't think you trade him because he is a bad leader and doesn't set up plays. You either trade or retain him as the elite goal scorer that he is. 

 

I'm quite good with promising prospects and picks.

 

People thinking we're gonna get an established top six centre plus prospects and picks for Pacioretty are out of their mind.

 

Maybe in 13-14, not today.

 

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27 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Some people here are cool with that. Danault will need a new contract this summer, two seasons of 40 points, can't wait to see his $3.5M deal for three years.

 

With plek off the books... 3.5 to danault and prices raise still leaves us 8.5 million in space.  Add in 3-5 million as a cap increase too.

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2 hours ago, Habopotamus said:

How do you figure Bergevin is as good as any. We're about to miss the playoffs in 2 of the last 3 years. With last year being a embarrassing for round knockout.

 

We have had trouble scoring since Bergevin took over, no number one centre since Bergevin took over, gone through 2 coaches since Bergevin took over, have had a terrible time drafting players since Bergevin took over, and have lost some quality players because of Bergevin's stubbornness. 

 

Explain to me where this guy is as good as any g.m out there ? 

Ok, I'll post something on the Bergevin thread. 

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46 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

This is more or less what I was getting at. I want elite returns of be its to be traded. Because he is an elite player. I have I have no individual devotion for pacioretty. If you can get a some promising prospects, you trade him, if you can't, you sign him and find another way to fill the holes. I don't think you trade him because he is a bad leader and doesn't set up plays. You either trade or retain him as the elite goal scorer that he is. 

 

Yeah, a school of thought seems to think that trading him is all about punishing the guy, or something. No, it's about recognizing that we're not going to contend within his window and responding accordingly. And of course you don't trade him just for the hell of it - the return has to be worthy of one of the league's best goal scorers over the past 5 years, and team captain in a demanding market to boot. But there is no reason why Pacioretty could not command an impressive return, as Duchene did.

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There’s no such thing as a Pacioretty window because we should not be trying to win through him. He can just as happily be a complimentary veteran on my cup winning team. Regardless of who’s on the team, this is Carey Price’s team. We can argue that he’s (Price) never done much in the playoffs, but as long as he is on the team the Habs can be contenders, as long as we don’t have a whopping $8 million in free cap space. That’s the issue here, not that Pacioretty is our best forward. 

 

The solution is to build around Pacioretty, not to ship out and start all over. The arguments which have stated that the Habs are 5 pieces away are not fact and the argument that the Habs cannot contend within Pacioretty’s window is hypothetical. 

 

The Habs may not win a cup within the next 5 years but with today’s NHL being younger, the potential to turn things around is much quicker. I’ve said it before, but take a look at how Tampa Bay and Winnipeg did not make the playoffs last season.

 

People will argue that with Bergevin at the helm, he can’t be expected to make the necessary moves to put us over the top, but that’s not reason enough for me to say that we cannot contend within the next 5 years and should

trade Pacioretty. I’m hopeful that Bergevin gets fired before we consider trading Pacioretty, and if that were the case, that’s not an argument anymore. 

 

At the moment, having Pacioretty and his 4.5 million dollar contract is hampering us from contending in no way, shape or form. 

 

I do not want to lose him for nothing at free agency next year but if his value isn’t as high as what I asked for, then that’s partially my point as to why you don’t trade him. I don’t want to keep him because I don’t think he should be “punished”. I don’t want to trade him because I think he’s a great piece for a cup contender to have, and having him on the team at a reasonable price is great. I’m not in agreeance that he’s necessarily going to demand $7 million plus in twonoff seasons, but if he does, so what, you pay him. We have the space to work with and while Pacioretty doesn’t have to be our best forward, he certainly deserves that contract. 

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12 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

There’s no such thing as a Pacioretty window because we should not be trying to win through him. He can just as happily be a complimentary veteran on my cup winning team. Regardless of who’s on the team, this is Carey Price’s team. We can argue that he’s (Price) never done much in the playoffs, but as long as he is on the team the Habs can be contenders, as long as we don’t have a whopping $8 million in free cap space. That’s the issue here, not that Pacioretty is our best forward. 

 

The solution is to build around Pacioretty, not to ship out and start all over. The arguments which have stated that the Habs are 5 pieces away are not fact and the argument that the Habs cannot contend within Pacioretty’s window is hypothetical. 

 

The Habs may not win a cup within the next 5 years but with today’s NHL being younger, the potential to turn things around is much quicker. I’ve said it before, but take a look at how Tampa Bay and Winnipeg did not make the playoffs last season.

 

People will argue that with Bergevin at the helm, he can’t be expected to make the necessary moves to put us over the top, but that’s not reason enough for me to say that we cannot contend within the next 5 years and should

trade Pacioretty. I’m hopeful that Bergevin gets fired before we consider trading Pacioretty, and if that were the case, that’s not an argument anymore. 

 

At the moment, having Pacioretty and his 4.5 million dollar contract is hampering us from contending in no way, shape or form. 

 

I do not want to lose him for nothing at free agency next year but if his value isn’t as high as what I asked for, then that’s partially my point as to why you don’t trade him. I don’t want to keep him because I don’t think he should be “punished”. I don’t want to trade him because I think he’s a great piece for a cup contender to have, and having him on the team at a reasonable price is great. I’m not in agreeance that he’s necessarily going to demand $7 million plus in twonoff seasons, but if he does, so what, you pay him. We have the space to work with and while Pacioretty doesn’t have to be our best forward, he certainly deserves that contract. 

Yes we have $8.5m in cap space.  But like I said last summer.  Who are you going to move to get a true $8.5m player???  MB already moved our 2 best pieces to fill a 23 year old donut hole at centre (Subban and Sergechev).  Both of those moves backfired in making the D weaker and not addressing our #1 need since 1995.  

 

If if it wasn’t for the idiotic contracts to Alzner and Shaw, we actually couldnbalso have had another $9m+ in cap space.  Now, Pacioretty and galchenyuk are the last pieces we have 2 fill that hole.  I don’t want to trade galchenyuk- as soon as we do, we are going to find out that at worst he is a #2 centre and under a less idiotic management regime will become a at least a 65+ player.  He is also much younger than Pacioretty.  If we are going to trade someone, I’d rather move Pacioretty.  

 

Once we we fill that hole, do you actually believe we have a defence that can win anything in the playoffs??? We are not close.  We have one of the slowest useless defence in the league that is not built for success in today’s game.

 

I think bk we have the pieces to do a light tear down (not in the  amount of changes to make, but in how long it would take to turn n things around), and only try and  keep Drouin, galchenyuk and Mete as the core that you don’t trade, and if you make the right deals and add the right pieces through the draft, i think we can contend in a couple of years.  Especially if we add -#1 picks in the 2019 and 2020 drafts. Anything else and we are just riding the hamster wheel.

 

oh and step one to success is we clean house of the management team.

 

i actually think if we had kept Radulov and Markov and not commited to Alzner and brought in a coach that could bring out the strengths in galchenyuk’s game, we could of have been a little more than a bubble team, that with a few shrewd moves to get a good return for Shaw and plekanac, could have been a dark horse team, if Price is at the top of his game.  Of course, I also think that we would have been a much better team without the Subban trade, but that ship has also sailed.   Now there are just too many holes to fill and what we have is a chemistry experiment that has blown up in MB’s face.

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19 hours ago, Habopotamus said:

How do you figure Bergevin is as good as any. We're about to miss the playoffs in 2 of the last 3 years. With last year being a embarrassing for round knockout.

 

We have had trouble scoring since Bergevin took over, no number one centre since Bergevin took over, gone through 2 coaches since Bergevin took over, have had a terrible time drafting players since Bergevin took over, and have lost some quality players because of Bergevin's stubbornness. 

 

Explain to me where this guy is as good as any g.m out there ? 

In my view, Marc inherited an empty prospects pipeline due to Gainey's/Gauthier's dealing of draft picks between 2008-2011 when they didn't have 2nd round picks:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/draft.html

 

That crop of players (2008-2011) have not yielded any NHLers, they would be graduating now with the club or be part of the core of the team. Only Gallagher made it, and he is a mid-6 RW, and having a career year.

 

From the 2012 crop, Galchenyuk, Collberg (became vanek) and Hudon are looking fine. Bozon's health is not on the Habs, and is unfortunate.

 

The drafts since 20113 have not been too high up in the standings because the habs have done well during the season, MB did manage to patch together competitive teams except for 2015-2016 when Price was hurt. In 2016  the y drafter Sergachev, Mete, Bitten, etc which look promising.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Montreal_Canadiens_seasons

 

the summer of 2017 was disappointing due to the mess with Radulov and Markov and the underwhelming performance of Alzner and Schelemko. With Weber's injury, Price's unerperformance at the begining of the season and Ben's and Petry's problems under CJ's system, the defence has played very badly.

 

But overall, I believe that Marc bergevin has performed well, as well as any GM during his tenure. I do not want him fired. Not just yet.

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