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Retool or rebuild. That is the question?

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In a perfect world, you move Weber. He is well into the back 9 and can only decline - expensively - from here.

 

The trouble with moving Weber is that the D is an absolute disaster without him.

 

Now, the "tankers/rebuilders" might say that that's Jim Dandy: having the league's worst D means a series of lottery picks for sure. But I just don't believe you can rebuild that way. What the Edmonton experience shows is that if you just throw a bunch of young players together with no stabilizing veteran presence, no elite older guys, they never learn to do things properly and they internalize losing. They become losers.

 

I don't want to be trying to integrate young defenceman into a d-corps that is laughably inept, where Jeff Petry is the #1 d-man and those young guys are getting lit up night after night. You need to have a minimum threshold of competence in order to provide those young players with an environment in which excellence is a meaningful standard. Right now only Weber provides that.

 

Therefore, we can only trade Weber when we have at least one other legitimate top-pairing defender who can act as the glue guy on the blueline.

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

In a perfect world, you move Weber. He is well into the back 9 and can only decline - expensively - from here.

 

The trouble with moving Weber is that the D is an absolute disaster without him.

 

Now, the "tankers/rebuilders" might say that that's Jim Dandy: having the league's worst D means a series of lottery picks for sure. But I just don't believe you can rebuild that way. What the Edmonton experience shows is that if you just throw a bunch of young players together with no stabilizing veteran presence, no elite older guys, they never learn to do things properly and they internalize losing. They become losers.

 

I don't want to be trying to integrate young defenceman into a d-corps that is laughably inept, where Jeff Petry is the #1 d-man and those young guys are getting lit up night after night. You need to have a minimum threshold of competence in order to provide those young players with an environment in which excellence is a meaningful standard. Right now only Weber provides that.

 

Therefore, we can only trade Weber when we have at least one other legitimate top-pairing defender who can act as the glue guy on the blueline.

How long have we gone without Weber this year....the team will survive 

 

Trade him to a team who has a solid window of contention. The leafs looks like a team that could benefit from a player like Weber at this point.

 

As I said before, why trade Pacioretty, yet keep Weber. If you're trading your top goal scorer for young assets, it makes zero sense to keep Weber. His best days will be behind him by the time this team rounds into form. 

Edited by Habopotamus

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25 minutes ago, Habopotamus said:

How long have we gone without Weber this year....the team will survive 

 

Trade him to a team who has a solid window of contention. The leafs looks like a team that could benefit from a player like Weber at this point.

 

As I said before, why trade Pacioretty, yet keep Weber. If you're trading your top goal scorer for young assets, it makes zero sense to keep Weber. His best days will be behind him by the time this team rounds into form. 

 

The team has Drouin, Galchenyuk, Lehkonen, Byron and Hudon that can play top 6 left wing. The loss of a Weber devastates the defense on the right side 

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28 minutes ago, Habopotamus said:

How long have we gone without Weber this year....the team will survive 

 

Trade him to a team who has a solid window of contention. The leafs looks like a team that could benefit from a player like Weber at this point.

 

As I said before, why trade Pacioretty, yet keep Weber. If you're trading your top goal scorer for young assets, it makes zero sense to keep Weber. His best days will be behind him by the time this team rounds into form. 

 

The team is not surviving.  We are shit.

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The club has zero top six centres, with Danault being the only one close to that definition (Galchenyuk doesn't count because Bergevin will never let him play centre). 

The club's defence is absolute trash without Weber/Subban/Markov and Weber is only going to get older.

The club's prospect pool is shallow.

The club's coaching is mediocre.

The club's development is abysmal.

 

If three of those were erased (example: better development, better prospect pool, better defence) I would consider a retool. But with six major issues (I count the lack of top six centres as two issues) any attempt of a retool will fail. Because the whole point of a retool is to get back to Stanley Cup contention.

 

Actually, I'll simplify. I don't want this team to do anything other than rebuild until they have a true number one centre and the prospect pool is filled up again. I'm fine with trading pretty much everyone on the team to clean house and start fresh. Again, I'll rebuild for years over what we've been through. 

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6 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

 

Actually, I'll simplify. I don't want this team to do anything other than rebuild until they have a true number one centre and the prospect pool is filled up again. I'm fine with trading pretty much everyone on the team to clean house and start fresh. Again, I'll rebuild for years over what we've been through. 

 

 

You mean making the playoffs 4 of the last 6 years including 3 division titles and a conference final? Man life sucks

 

Okay rebuild from scratch and let's see how easy it is to just simply get all the pieces necessary to become more successful than these last 6 seasons. Teams like Edmonton, Arizona, Buffalo, Carolina, Toronto and Florida will take notes to see how it's done. 

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5 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

The club has zero top six centres, with Danault being the only one close to that definition (Galchenyuk doesn't count because Bergevin will never let him play centre). 

The club's defence is absolute trash without Weber/Subban/Markov and Weber is only going to get older.

The club's prospect pool is shallow.

The club's coaching is mediocre.

The club's development is abysmal.

 

If three of those were erased (example: better development, better prospect pool, better defence) I would consider a retool. But with six major issues (I count the lack of top six centres as two issues) any attempt of a retool will fail. Because the whole point of a retool is to get back to Stanley Cup contention.

 

Actually, I'll simplify. I don't want this team to do anything other than rebuild until they have a true number one centre and the prospect pool is filled up again. I'm fine with trading pretty much everyone on the team to clean house and start fresh. Again, I'll rebuild for years over what we've been through. 

I agree with most of your assessment, but I really think we can accelerate the rebuild by moving 3 core guys - Price, Weber and maxpac.  By packaging these core players with guys like Gallagher, Petry and even an overpaid depth guy like Shaw, we should be able to get stud young #1c and dman.  Move other dead weight like Alzner by retaining salary and in 2 to 3 years you can rebuild on the fly with a fairly competitive team.  

 

I really think Galachenyuk will be a solid #2 centre once MB is canned.  But the biggest stumbling block for most is moving Price, when he is really our biggest chip to get rebuild.

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13 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

 

You mean making the playoffs 4 of the last 6 years including 3 division titles and a conference final? Man life sucks

 

Okay rebuild from scratch and let's see how easy it is to just simply get all the pieces necessary to become more successful than these last 6 seasons. Teams like Edmonton, Arizona, Buffalo, Carolina, Toronto and Florida will take notes to see how it's done. 

I’ll take what Toronto and Edmonton, or even buffalo have today over our future. Once the leafs got new leadership, they are trending in the right direction.  Edmonton has the same brain dead type of GM we have, who threw away Hall and Eberle for table scraps, otherwise they’d be sitting pretty today.  Buffalo same problem.  Have the pieces but idiotic management and ownership.

 

The rangers who have had more success than us and are in much better shape than us now, have even realized that it’s better to rebuild now than plod along with no real chance of being a true contender.

 

MB blew our window by being gifted Price, Subban, Markov maxpac and a top 3 pick in his first year and Gallagher ready to make the jump and throwing it all away and doing a piss poor job developing players.

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15 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I’ll take what Toronto and Edmonton, or even buffalo have today over our future. Once the leafs got new leadership, they are trending in the right direction.  Edmonton has the same brain dead type of GM we have, who threw away Hall and Eberle for table scraps, otherwise they’d be sitting pretty today.  Buffalo same problem.  Have the pieces but idiotic management and ownership.

 

The rangers who have had more success than us and are in much better shape than us now, have even realized that it’s better to rebuild now than plod along with no real chance of being a true contender.

 

MB blew our window by being gifted Price, Subban, Markov maxpac and a top 3 pick in his first year and Gallagher ready to make the jump and throwing it all away and doing a piss poor job developing players.

 

The parallel with New York is revealing, and depressing. No illusions there, just a cold recognition that a core has passed its window and planning accordingly. So far we've seen nothing at all analogous from the Habs. And we didn't even have the benefit of a trip to the Finals.

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So we want to trade a top 3 goalie, top 10 defenseman, and top 10 winger all in the HOPE of getting players back that MIGHT develop into an elite player like the ones we traded. Okay 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, illWill said:

You mean making the playoffs 4 of the last 6 years including 3 division titles and a conference final? Man life sucks

 

Okay rebuild from scratch and let's see how easy it is to just simply get all the pieces necessary to become more successful than these last 6 seasons. Teams like Edmonton, Arizona, Buffalo, Carolina, Toronto and Florida will take notes to see how it's done. 

 

Your standards are low. 16 teams make the playoffs every year. Division titles mean nothing. One conference final in six years, should we put a banner up?

 

Yes, I would rather rebuild from scratch. New management, new development, new scouting, new players. I don't care if it's hard. I care if it's done right. And this team hasn't done right in 20 years.

47 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I agree with most of your assessment, but I really think we can accelerate the rebuild by moving 3 core guys - Price, Weber and maxpac.  By packaging these core players with guys like Gallagher, Petry and even an overpaid depth guy like Shaw, we should be able to get stud young #1c and dman.  Move other dead weight like Alzner by retaining salary and in 2 to 3 years you can rebuild on the fly with a fairly competitive team.  

 

I really think Galachenyuk will be a solid #2 centre once MB is canned.  But the biggest stumbling block for most is moving Price, when he is really our biggest chip to get rebuild.

 

I don't think you're getting a 1C out of any of our guys. At least not an established one. Maybe a young guy who could one day be one like Gabriel Villardi in LA. And that's a maybe.

 

The better bet is to get 1st round picks in 2019 and 2020 and get as close to the lottery as possible for a chance to win a Top 3 pick. Then you can shoot for Jack Hughes, Quinton Byfield, and Alexis Lafreniere (who currently plays LW but has played C as a midget and might move to C when Dove-McFalls leaves the team this spring) to get a true franchise centre.

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17 minutes ago, illWill said:

So we want to trade a top 3 goalie, top 10 defenseman, and top 10 winger all in the HOPE of getting players back that MIGHT develop into an elite player like the ones we traded. Okay 

 

 

 

If you move all three, its a full on rebuild not a re-tool. 

 

That said, I think you don't rebuild at the deadline.  There is no moving Price or Weber now, there might be moving Max now, or it might be in the summer. 

 

The deadline has to be approached as a retool, with maybe Max out if you get the right offer, maybe Byron out if you get the right offer... figure out if you are re-signing Deslauriers and Jerabek or not.... and definitely trade plekanec.

 

You can explore moves, but the only must trade is Plekanec. 

 

If you get a centre for Max, let him go. 

 

But thats more re-tool than rebuild.

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You have to move Pacioretty if the team isn't vying for a Cup next year. There's no getting around it.

 

If you are not going for a Cup, you should trade Gallagher as well. Gallagher is injury prone and right now is value is quite high. You're not gonna find a better time to move him and if you're not making the playoffs there's no point in him playing more for the Habs.

 

Then you got Shea Weber, who will be dropping to $6M per season but still be a $7.8M cap hit. Why keep him around? Is he even going to want to stay around? Better off trading him to a contender if you're not going to be one. Which you won't with this defence.

 

Then you got Andrew Shaw, whose entire value is based around his playoff performances, so if he's not in the playoffs, why pay him? Better to trade him and get his multiple years off the cap. Maybe re-coup those 2nd rounders he cost. 

 

Finally you got Carey Price, who won't go anywhere unless he wants to. And if this team isn't going for the playoffs, he might be seeing his chance to win a Cup disappearing and ask for a trade. Or he doesn't. Either way, like most of his career since 2011, Carey is in control.

 

The return you get for 4/5 of those players is enough that by 2021, you can start going back to contending.

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37 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

If you move all three, its a full on rebuild not a re-tool. 

 

That said, I think you don't rebuild at the deadline.  There is no moving Price or Weber now, there might be moving Max now, or it might be in the summer. 

 

The deadline has to be approached as a retool, with maybe Max out if you get the right offer, maybe Byron out if you get the right offer... figure out if you are re-signing Deslauriers and Jerabek or not.... and definitely trade plekanec.

 

You can explore moves, but the only must trade is Plekanec. 

 

If you get a centre for Max, let him go. 

 

But thats more re-tool than rebuild.

As long as it doesn't come to a remake or a refurbish! 

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Gallagher is 25, he can be part of the solution, both short term and long term.... 

 

But sure lets just trade everyone... and suck shit for 6 years. 

 

How's that working for the Oilers?  Florida?  

 

Trade everyone over 25, bring in these draft picks to a culture of losing, and with no veterans over 25 to lead them.  I'm sure it will work out. 

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Who said the team will never have veterans?

 

Just not these veterans. More value traded than kept.

 

Once you have some great young players you can bring in some veterans who know the city and can mentor them. But why would I want a future superstar rookie to take his cues from Max Pacioretty? Or an LTIR Brendan Gallagher?

 

But no, let's be dumber than the Leafs who immediately unloaded their veterans to rebuild.

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Andrei Markov hurt his knees numerous times and barely played from 2009-2012..... he was injury prone and destined to be on IR for the next four years. 

 

Oh wait... that didn't happen.

 

Why do we assume Gallagher is going to be hurt. 

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13 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Andrei Markov hurt his knees numerous times and barely played from 2009-2012..... he was injury prone and destined to be on IR for the next four years. 

 

Oh wait... that didn't happen.

 

Why do we assume Gallagher is going to be hurt. 

 

Because Markov and Gallagher are the exact same player. With the exact same amount of concussions. And the exact same injuries. And they play the same way. 

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I don't get the 'trade Gallagher' idea either. Not that he is untouchable - by no means. But his age positions him to be a core guy in my hypothetical retool, perhaps team captain. Now, he may end up permanently injured, he may not. I agree that the odds are higher in his case, but I'd be more interested in moving guys that are 30+.

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4 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Because Markov and Gallagher are the exact same player. With the exact same amount of concussions. And the exact same injuries. And they play the same way. 

 

So we are using our crystal ball to say Gallagher will be injured in the future???  

 

I'm just not sure where this assumption comes from. 

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There’s no denying Gallagher is getting hurt more often than he used to. It’s also not a huge stretch to even assume that his style of play will lead to a deteriorating body. I can see the argument. On the other hand, it’s true that it’s also just as possible that he has a regular career with not many seasons lost to injury. I worried about his recent injury history during yesterday’s game when he left to the locker room, and then he came back and scored a goal. 

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On topic, my short answer would be to retool the team. This can be done in a myriad of ways, including actually using the cap space we had available to us this year. As much as people want our best players traded, it’s not because of them that the team isn’t up to standard. Our record has less to do with which players make up our core, and more to do with the way our team has been built, and the fact that we could have one or two more star players on our team at no cost (with the available $8 million). 

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16 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

There’s no denying Gallagher is getting hurt more often than he used to. It’s also not a huge stretch to even assume that his style of play will lead to a deteriorating body. I can see the argument. On the other hand, it’s true that it’s also just as possible that he has a regular career with not many seasons lost to injury. I worried about his recent injury history during yesterday’s game when he left to the locker room, and then he came back and scored a goal. 

 

 

He's played every game this season. 

 

How is he getting hurt more often?

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For me,  the best way to retool is start at the desks. Laval, st john have been terrible. Work on player development by bringing in some new faces. The right faces. Get some better pro scouts. Make it so that all those picks you make actually developed an impact prospect. 

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15 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

He's played every game this season. 

 

How is he getting hurt more often?

Games played in the last few years...

 

82

81

53 

54

55 this year so far

 

He has indeed played every game this year, but he has been injured the past two seasons and he gets sent to the dressing room quite often. He’s in front of the net all the time and got lucky he didn’t miss any time after taking (another) slap shot off his hand earlier this year. 

 

You can say it’s a crystal ball talking and I will say that based on his style of play, we’re going to have to deal with his injuries throughout his career.

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