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Retool or rebuild. That is the question?

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xXx..CK..xXx    201

The problem I have with trading Pacioretty for a center is that we are all looking for that elusive top 6 center, who on our team may turn out to be the the equivalent of a top line center. Furthermore, we are looking for an offensive centerman who could balance the team out based on an apparent abundance of wingers. The issue is that our coaching staff would prefer our top line center to be just as defensively responsible as offensively. We’ve seen that with Galchenyuk and Drouin.

 

I have only a shadow of a doubt that had we not been through years of this with Galchenyuk already, his skill set is competent for a top 6 center, especially on a team that needs one.

 

We could effectively end up trading Pacioretty for a prospect centerman who turns out to be no more effective defensively than Galchenyuk. What’s the point?

 

Even in Boston, Bergeron has been a Selke candidate or winner, year after year. While he has scored 30 goals in the past, Bergeron seems to be finding even more offense this season now that Julien is gone.

 

It worries me that expectations from a center acquired for Pacioretty won’t be fully realized on this team. We can claim that we have an abundance of wingers, but we also could have been a team with a skilled Galchenyuk as our first line center. 

 

My thought is that any bonafide center who comes in a return, unless it were a Tavares or a Thornton (neither of which would happen), will have the main focus of Julien be to hone in on their defensive game. If it is a young center prospect in return, the trade has potential to be a disaster as we’ve seen what has happened to Drouin and more specifically Galchenyuk during Julien’s “training” routine. 

 

Of course, if we simply trade Pacioretty for something that also involves a solid defenseman or defensive prospect in return, the idea becomes a little more refreshing. I simply am not convinced that any center prospect we trade Pacioretty for would turn out to be much different than some of the skilled centermen we already have on the team, even though they aren’t used as such.

 

Galchenyuk is still listed as a center in many places and Drouin and Galchenyuk were both drafted 3rd overall. What traded prospect is going to have more potential? 

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The Fall For Dahl continues..

 

Edmonton up on Florida (hope it’s a three point game)

 

Arizona (likely never falling this far!) is up on Chicago 

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14 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

The problem I have with trading Pacioretty for a center is that we are all looking for that elusive top 6 center, who on our team may turn out to be the the equivalent of a top line center. Furthermore, we are looking for an offensive centerman who could balance the team out based on an apparent abundance of wingers. The issue is that our coaching staff would prefer our top line center to be just as defensively responsible as offensively. We’ve seen that with Galchenyuk and Drouin.

 

I have only a shadow of a doubt that had we not been through years of this with Galchenyuk already, his skill set is competent for a top 6 center, especially on a team that needs one.

 

We could effectively end up trading Pacioretty for a prospect centerman who turns out to be no more effective defensively than Galchenyuk. What’s the point?

 

Even in Boston, Bergeron has been a Selke candidate or winner, year after year. While he has scored 30 goals in the past, Bergeron seems to be finding even more offense this season now that Julien is gone.

 

It worries me that expectations from a center acquired for Pacioretty won’t be fully realized on this team. We can claim that we have an abundance of wingers, but we also could have been a team with a skilled Galchenyuk as our first line center. 

 

My thought is that any bonafide center who comes in a return, unless it were a Tavares or a Thornton (neither of which would happen), will have the main focus of Julien be to hone in on their defensive game. If it is a young center prospect in return, the trade has potential to be a disaster as we’ve seen what has happened to Drouin and more specifically Galchenyuk during Julien’s “training” routine. 

 

Of course, if we simply trade Pacioretty for something that also involves a solid defenseman or defensive prospect in return, the idea becomes a little more refreshing. I simply am not convinced that any center prospect we trade Pacioretty for would turn out to be much different than some of the skilled centermen we already have on the team, even though they aren’t used as such.

 

Galchenyuk is still listed as a center in many places and Drouin and Galchenyuk were both drafted 3rd overall. What traded prospect is going to have more potential? 

 

Good post :1gohabs:

 

The problem lies with CJ and if he refuses to use Galchenyuk at centre when he is clearly a top 4 centre then it stands to reason he won't use a similar player even if we get one. We need to trade for as many Plexs as we can...

 

Interesting point of view and I had not considered it.

 

I dislike our GM and coach more and more everyday.

 

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Toronthab    354
On 2/11/2018 at 7:02 PM, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Because Markov and Gallagher are the exact same player. With the exact same amount of concussions. And the exact same injuries. And they play the same way. 

Hey!m Concussions never affected my thnknig.....knithng... gnthekking.. hthyteruuutsic...thancur.....thnkgni..

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Toronthab    354
23 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

This is really going to oversimplify things but the way our team has been built for many years, the key guy has been Carey Price. 

 

I am fully aware about the theory around here that in a playoff series “many goalies can match Price’s level and negate the Price-effect”. While I don’t fully agree with it, if that’s the case then he is indeed the one who should be eventually moved in order for us to not simply be able to “patch up” any issues.

 

The Leafs had Sundin but I am a believer that having Price is a reason why the Habs can never  truly be a full rebuilding team. Re-tooling is fine but it’s a very general term, as I can guarantee the Habs will “re-tool” from the trade deadline to the off season.

 

I also fear to say on here that having Price is reason enough to believe that with the correct configuration up front and re-tool, we should be able to compete in upcoming seasons.

 

Of course the glass half empty view is that in a good year “Price hides all the team weaknesses and so management can get away with putting together a mediocre team”.

 

If all these negative views have truth, then Price may actually be the proper player to set free. 

 

I am of the positive view that we can compete in many given years because we have him. Because of that viewpoint, I should be considered a Leaf-like fan, apparently. 

 

To sum up, I believe Price is a key factor on the polarizing viewpoints of this team. 

 

I am of the belief that with him on the team, we should have the potential to compete in any given year as long as our management team puts together the best team possible in front of him. I didn’t feel as though they did that this season.

 

I also feel as though Price certainly had a down year himself, which is a whole other conversation. 

 

If Price can be negated by other goaltenders come playoff time and cannot help this team remain legitimate, why keep him? (I don’t want him traded)

 

Pacioretty can be a part of the puzzle but Price is the keyest of cogs, in every respect. 

I think we need a new GM who doesn't treat our beloved hockey players like unbeloved hockey players. Heart. I also hate the idea of the "rebuild" position.. which seems to me to tilted toward winning rather than playing and we play hockey. That is a philosophical or theological view not a criticism of the efficacy or short or long term win-loss consequences, which I don't think is the right way to look at the game. So I think .. if I remember correctly.. that I generally agree with your position. Critics have rightly noted however ..that since the series of concussions... my level of analysis could use either some retooling or perhaps a major rebluid.. . dllbeerrui.... rebluid.. blereuitdi.... drulibr,,,, :o

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Toronthab    354

I thought maybe a logo change.. something Canadian ya know.. like the evocative Canadian Map.... never mind.. Forget it. Just say no!

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Metallica    1

Here's a question, players know now that Bergevin isn't  loyal. With comments like ... If you want loyalty buy a dog. Will that hurt him trying to sign ufa's?

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27 minutes ago, Metallica said:

Here's a question, players know now that Bergevin isn't  loyal. With comments like ... If you want loyalty buy a dog. Will that hurt him trying to sign ufa's?

 

Nah. I don't think anyone cares about an offhand remark like that. What will hurt him is

 

-the fact that the team is garbage and appears to have no elite young prospects and no serious plan for fixing this, other than improvisational patchwork

 

-if you're a FW,  the lack of puck-moving D, which sets you up to fail

 

-a possible rep for treating players poorly - e.g., Serge Savard's comments on how they mishandled PK - or else a coach with a rep for being an uptight old-schoolie and can no longer point to on-ice success as a mitigating factor. Another version is this: if I'm a UFA, I look at the Drouin/Galy situation and say, 'wow, here is an organization that isn't putting guys in a position to succeed.'

 

-the fact that Montreal is a horrible place to play when the organization is incompetent. So even if I weren't particularly preoccupied with winning, I'd still be leery of signing there, because I know I'm going to get harassed on the street by frustrated fans.

 

All that being said, as long as the Habs overpay, they'll get the guy they want a decent percentage of the time, just like any other organization.

 

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Toronthab    354

Markov and Rad both seemed to say that the deciding factor to resigning was the perceived indifferent treatment to these great hockey players of heart and soul. They may already have dogs but maybe there's something to that. What is more naturally bonding than natural bonds. 

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Two teams with zero issue with burning bridges with players are the New York Rangers and Philadelphia Flyers. They have bought out multiple players and traded players originally with no trade clauses or no movement clauses. But every summer both teams are a major player in free agency. Both teams also pay high state taxes and have rabid fanbases hungry for a championship. But they also have reputations to compete and treat players well when they are on the team (until they want them out) so players like to play for them. 

 

What's funny to me is that the Rangers released a letter basically telling fans they plan to rebuild. They did that when they are closer to the playoffs than the Habs are. It's funny we're still holding on hope and the Rangers, a team similarly built to the Habs, and beat us in the playoffs last season, sees the writing on the wall.

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Metallica    1

players talk, if a player that is thinking of signing here ask a player that he is friends with that use to players with the habs, what's it like with that organization. That player tells him its great to play hockey there but you can't trust the management team there, do you think they will end up signing here??

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The Fall For Dahl continues.

 

Buffalo upsets Tampa - only 7 points back

Ottawa unfortunately lost

Detroit up two in Anaheim in the third

 

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Metallica    1
52 minutes ago, TheDriveFor25 said:

The Fall For Dahl continues.

 

Buffalo upsets Tampa - only 7 points back

Ottawa unfortunately lost

Detroit up two in Anaheim in the third

 

We need to hope edmonton and Vancouver star getting points and pass us.

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Trizzak    579
3 hours ago, TheDriveFor25 said:

The Fall For Dahl continues.

 

Buffalo upsets Tampa - only 7 points back

Ottawa unfortunately lost

Detroit up two in Anaheim in the third

 

 

A contender appears! Chicago has lost 7 straight.

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9 hours ago, Trizzak said:

 

A contender appears! Chicago has lost 7 straight.

 

The crash has finally happened for them, it looks like. It'll be interesting to see how they manage all those top-heavy investments in aging players.

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10 hours ago, Trizzak said:

 

A contender appears! Chicago has lost 7 straight.

Would love for Chicago to finish near the bottom, just a point or two more than Montreal.... the 2nd rnd pick we have of theirs could be in the top 36 or so.

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xXx..CK..xXx    201
1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The crash has finally happened for them, it looks like. It'll be interesting to see how they manage all those top-heavy investments in aging players.

I haven’t followed them closely enough but their slide does seem to coincide with Crawford being put out with Vertigo. Not easy for the team to recover from losing their starting goalie on a permanent basis. 

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15 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I haven’t followed them closely enough but their slide does seem to coincide with Crawford being put out with Vertigo. Not easy for the team to recover from losing their starting goalie on a permanent basis. 

 

True enough - although Seabrook being benched was an ominous sign that there are more structural problems there.

 

Hey, I know: let's trade 'em Price!! :lol:

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alfredoh2009    26
1 hour ago, TheDriveFor25 said:

Would love for Chicago to finish near the bottom, just a point or two more than Montreal.... the 2nd rnd pick we have of theirs could be in the top 36 or so.

That's a good point. Do we have any other picks like that?

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Trizzak    579
Just now, alfredoh2009 said:

That's a good point. Do we have any other picks like that?

 

Washington's 2nd... no luck there.

Also probably Edmonton's 4th.

And we want LA to make the playoffs to turn their 5th into our 4th.

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Commandant    705
5 minutes ago, Trizzak said:

 

Washington's 2nd... no luck there.

Also probably Edmonton's 4th.

And we want LA to make the playoffs to turn their 5th into our 4th.

 

If we get Edmonton's 4th and LA's pick back we can have

1 pick in the top 10 
3 picks in the top 40 (total... 1 top 10 and 2 in the 30s)
4 picks in the top 60
5 picks in the top 70
7 picks in the top 100

 

I really think that things like a Plekanec trade should be for 2019 picks. You also are likely moving him to a playoff team, which means the pick is late in the round.  It may still be late in 2019, or you could get lucky and see a team crash like us, Ottawa, Chicago, and suddenly that low second is a pick in the 30s. 

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Toronthab    354
2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I haven’t followed them closely enough but their slide does seem to coincide with Crawford being put out with Vertigo. Not easy for the team to recover from losing their starting goalie on a permanent basis. 

He's out because he watched an old Alfred Hitchcock movie??!!! YIKES!!

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hab29RETIRED    192
7 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The crash has finally happened for them, it looks like. It'll be interesting to see how they manage all those top-heavy investments in aging players.

Another reason for us to move our older players now.  At least Chicago has a reason to commit to them - the seabrook extension was plain dumb.  We have not won anything with this group, so let’s start fresh!!!

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49 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Another reason for us to move our older players now.  At least Chicago has a reason to commit to them - the seabrook extension was plain dumb.  We have not won anything with this group, so let’s start fresh!!!

 

It's interesting to ponder this in light of Benning's re-signing in Vancouver. The discussion here is basically over whether 'rebuild' means dumping all veterans and throwing young guys into the fire, or whether it means providing enough of a cushion of veteran excellence to ensure that those young players learn the game the right way and develop a winning culture. Guys like Benning and Linden point to Arizona and Buffalo as teams that seem to be in a perpetual pugatory despite having some good young pieces, and the argument is basically that the kids are not properly insulated and surrounded.

 

That's why I wouldn't be inclined to trade Weber unless we acquire an accomplished top-pairing D-man to replace him. Without him, the D will get destroyed every single night. And I probably wouldn't trade #31 for the same reason. That's not good for player development.

 

Everyone else, though? It's pretty much open season as far as I'm concerned.

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BCHabnut    194
20 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

True enough - although Seabrook being benched was an ominous sign that there are more structural problems there.

 

Hey, I know: let's trade 'em Price!! :lol:

Do you trade price for towes? 

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