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titanfan

Retool or rebuild. That is the question?

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titanfan    6

Metallica brought this up in another thread and I think it is a great discussion.

 

I know some would want us to do a complete rebuild, but wouldn't that mean our cupboards are completely bare?

 

That certainly isn't true.  We are having a tough season and have a lot of holes, but are certainly not a complete mess by any means.

 

We have Price, Weber (when he gets healthy), Pacioretty, Drouin, Gallagher, Galcheyuk, Byron, Danault, Lekhonen, Jerabek, Mete, even Petry if used in the right spot (#3 or 4 D).  Amnd some solid pieces for a 4th line.

 

That is a pretty good start, so a complete rebuild is not necessary.  The problem is a lot of those guys are being played out of place.

 

What we also have though are some pretty big holes - some would say starting with our GM.

 

From a players standpoint, we know we need a #1 and a #2 centre, we need a #1, #3 D.

 

We also have some trading bait and a lot of cap space.  Plus will have a decent pick in June, in what is a pretty good draft.  If we end up picking top 8 we should get a solid prospect.

 

Moving Plekanec is a no brainer, even if we resign him over the summer.  Finding a way to get someone to take Karl Alzner or Andrew Shaw would be a blessing, but is doubtful.

 

The thing is, I believe we need 4 key pieces.  We don't have a lot to trade to acquire those pieces via trade so management has to get creative.

 

Here is a wild scenario, just to show it is not impossible:

 

We will have the $$ to throw at a big name free agent, so Tavares is not impossible.  Of course, the questions remains - would he come here?

 

Do we bring back Eller for #3C?

 

Is there any chance of getting Karlsson from Ottawa?  A stretch I know, but stranger things have happened and the braintrust better be looking at it.  Ottawa is in complete rebuild mode, so picks (1st round) and prospects and maybe players like Mete plus Lehkonencan be worked out?  Tavares AND Karlsson won't happen without both Alzner and Shaw's contracts disappearing - but we can dream...

 

$6.5 m in cap space now, another $2.5* this summer = $9M

Plekanec - $6 gone = $15

Hemsky gone - $1 = $16

 

Tavares + Karlsson = $23M  (Someone has to go the other way to land Karlsson so add - $3M in savings - maybe more)

 

That means we have about $19M to land $23M in players.  Can we find $4M - sure we can IF we can get rid of Shaw and/or Alzner...

 

I didn't count any $$ for Eller in this, because if we could land Tavares and Karlsson we would stop there.  Also, the estimated cap increase is between $5 and $7M.  Because of the Price contract increase I only put $2.5, which pretty much splits it in the middle.

 

It won't be easy, but I think a retool is what we need.

 

Now, if we can just find the GM who can do it!!!!!

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Commandant    716

Just say no to Lars Eller. 

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titanfan    6

Haha.  Just thought he could be an affordable option...

 

I don't profess to be an expert, just love discussion and want to see the Habs find a way to have a chance to win another cup!

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Commandant    716

I just have Lars eller fatigue. 

 

Also I think getting one of Tavares and Karlsson is a pipe dream.  Getting both? impossible. 

 

This team has a ton of wingers.  it should focus on moving Pacioretty for a centre, and then trying to get some puck movers on the back end, especially the left side.  The ideal would be winning the lottery, but if that doesn't happen, there are some other options like OEL, and some free agent options like Calvin de Haan.

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huzer    76

Given that Bergevin has compiled the inept defense we currently have, and has been unable to land a top C during his entire tenure, the retool starts with new management/vision. 

 

I don't see the team as being a total tear down. There's a vacuum of talent between 26-30 years old or so, drafting, the lack of picks, development has handcuffed the franchise. It doesn't seem likely to plug 2 or 3 significant holes at once, so I don't see this season as a mere dip. It's going to take time to recoup.

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Trizzak    591

Retool this season/off-season, but probably rebuild next season.

 

You go with a retool now because, despite how low chance it may be, it is possible for the Habs fans to wake up July 2nd with Dahlin and Tavares signed to this team, and that instantly changes the Habs outlook for the next 5 years (at the very least.) Trading Plekanec, some middling wingers, and 3rd pairing defensemen at the deadline doesn't really affect next year's team all that much. "Retool" for some assets and maybe a slight change in team direction and wait for the lottery.

 

Failing that.... burn it to the ground.

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Metallica    2
3 hours ago, titanfan said:

Metallica brought this up in another thread and I think it is a great discussion.

 

I know some would want us to do a complete rebuild, but wouldn't that mean our cupboards are completely bare?

 

That certainly isn't true.  We are having a tough season and have a lot of holes, but are certainly not a complete mess by any means.

 

We have Price, Weber (when he gets healthy), Pacioretty, Drouin, Gallagher, Galcheyuk, Byron, Danault, Lekhonen, Jerabek, Mete, even Petry if used in the right spot (#3 or 4 D).  Amnd some solid pieces for a 4th line.

 

That is a pretty good start, so a complete rebuild is not necessary.  The problem is a lot of those guys are being played out of place.

 

What we also have though are some pretty big holes - some would say starting with our GM.

 

From a players standpoint, we know we need a #1 and a #2 centre, we need a #1, #3 D.

 

We also have some trading bait and a lot of cap space.  Plus will have a decent pick in June, in what is a pretty good draft.  If we end up picking top 8 we should get a solid prospect.

 

Moving Plekanec is a no brainer, even if we resign him over the summer.  Finding a way to get someone to take Karl Alzner or Andrew Shaw would be a blessing, but is doubtful.

 

The thing is, I believe we need 4 key pieces.  We don't have a lot to trade to acquire those pieces via trade so management has to get creative.

 

Here is a wild scenario, just to show it is not impossible:

 

We will have the $$ to throw at a big name free agent, so Tavares is not impossible.  Of course, the questions remains - would he come here?

 

Do we bring back Eller for #3C?

 

Is there any chance of getting Karlsson from Ottawa?  A stretch I know, but stranger things have happened and the braintrust better be looking at it.  Ottawa is in complete rebuild mode, so picks (1st round) and prospects and maybe players like Mete plus Lehkonencan be worked out?  Tavares AND Karlsson won't happen without both Alzner and Shaw's contracts disappearing - but we can dream...

 

$6.5 m in cap space now, another $2.5* this summer = $9M

Plekanec - $6 gone = $15

Hemsky gone - $1 = $16

 

Tavares + Karlsson = $23M  (Someone has to go the other way to land Karlsson so add - $3M in savings - maybe more)

 

That means we have about $19M to land $23M in players.  Can we find $4M - sure we can IF we can get rid of Shaw and/or Alzner...

 

I didn't count any $$ for Eller in this, because if we could land Tavares and Karlsson we would stop there.  Also, the estimated cap increase is between $5 and $7M.  Because of the Price contract increase I only put $2.5, which pretty much splits it in the middle.

 

It won't be easy, but I think a retool is what we need.

 

Now, if we can just find the GM who can do it!!!!!

Thanks for the ShoutOut,The point I was trying to make is more about Pacioretty. A lot people think we need to retool but want to trade Pacioretty. My point is you need him on the team if you're going to retool. But not if you're going to rebuild.

 

If we retool I would look at trading our 1st pick along with our 2nd try and get a top D to play with Weber. Then see who we can land July 1st.

 

But if we rebuild I trade Pacioretty, price and weber all by the draft.

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DON    42
24 minutes ago, Trizzak said:

Failing that.... burn it to the ground.

Office Space Stapler Guy - im going to  burn this place to the ground

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Rebuild. Go a decade if you have to. I would rather see this team lose for years because they are trying to build a future over seeing them lose with a team that's going nowhere. Bergevin blew it the summer of 2015 and we are just realizing now that was it. Rebuild from the ground up.

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The "rebuild" fallacy is exposed once we admit the belief that the team was poised to contend circa 2014-15. That team - the one Bergevin  catastrophically mismanaged to the point where it is now a league joke - was NOT a rebuild job. It was a result of Gainey/Gauthier's careful accumulation of talent even as the Habs remained a competitive team. That's the recipe we need to get back to.

 

All due respect, I also don't believe fans who say they want a rebuild. They don't. What they want is a year or two of awfulness in which the team drafts a couple of Sidney Crosbys. (I've seen this movie in Vancouver, where for years fans called for a rebuild, but now are whining that the team sucks even though they have excellent young stars like Horvat and Boeser, either of whom are better than ANY young player in the Habs organization). But league history is full of failed rebuilds where all you get is badness with no relief. And since we already have a clutch of solid young assets, we do not need to take that position. What we need, rather, are a couple of shrewd deals whereby we move high-value older players so as to bolster our under-25 core.

 

Obviously we should move Pleks. But I still believe that if we were to move Patches for a RNH-type + a  very good defensive prospect (say, a guy with #2 d-man potential) we would emerge as much more organizationally solid. We'd actually have a natural C who is still not in his prime years, and we'd have some hope on the blueline. The idea would be to contend in about three years (which, I assume, would give us enough time to retool the tire-fire of a blueline). This doesn't rule out somehow acquiring that elusive Stud #1C over that span. But I don't think we can just stay frozen until the opportunity to acquire said stud materializes. In other words, just focus on getting younger and getting better. As you do, opportunities will present themselves.

 

That's a retool, not a rebuild.

 

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Toronthab    354

I think we most definitely need a new GM. It seems patently clear... .I listened to a Serge Savard interview with Chris Nylan (very likable guy) last night that we sold our soul to the Preds and let Rad and Markov and the world know ..by fax.. that they really didn't matter at all to anyone in Montreal. Except of course, for us fans. .the ones who love Les Canadiens and Subban, rad and the great Andre Markov.Whatever other competences he may or may not enjoy are irrelevant. We need someone who loves the Habs managing the Habs and les glorieux who play to our delight. We need this done now. 

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Trizzak    591
20 hours ago, Commandant said:

Just say no to Lars Eller. 

 

 

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hab29RETIRED    193
1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

The "rebuild" fallacy is exposed once we admit the belief that the team was poised to contend circa 2014-15. That team - the one Bergevin  catastrophically mismanaged to the point where it is now a league joke - was NOT a rebuild job. It was a result of Gainey/Gauthier's careful accumulation of talent even as the Habs remained a competitive team. That's the recipe we need to get back to.

 

All due respect, I also don't believe fans who say they want a rebuild. They don't. What they want is a year or two of awfulness in which the team drafts a couple of Sidney Crosbys. (I've seen this movie in Vancouver, where for years fans called for a rebuild, but now are whining that the team sucks even though they have excellent young stars like Horvat and Boeser, either of whom are better than ANY young player in the Habs organization). But league history is full of failed rebuilds where all you get is badness with no relief. And since we already have a clutch of solid young assets, we do not need to take that position. What we need, rather, are a couple of shrewd deals whereby we move high-value older players so as to bolster our under-25 core.

 

Obviously we should move Pleks. But I still believe that if we were to move Patches for a RNH-type + a  very good defensive prospect (say, a guy with #2 d-man potential) we would emerge as much more organizationally solid. We'd actually have a natural C who is still not in his prime years, and we'd have some hope on the blueline. The idea would be to contend in about three years (which, I assume, would give us enough time to retool the tire-fire of a blueline). This doesn't rule out somehow acquiring that elusive Stud #1C over that span. But I don't think we can just stay frozen until the opportunity to acquire said stud materializes. In other words, just focus on getting younger and getting better. As you do, opportunities will present themselves.

 

That's a retool, not a rebuild.

 

Problem with trying to retool/rebuild to contend in three years is that Weber will be close to done. 

We need to blow it up now.  I would move Weber, maxpac, pleks, Shaw and Alzner if anyone will take them (even retain salary if it nets solid picks) and even ask price and Petry to waive their NMC/NTC. Price and Weber are the only guys that can get us that young potential #1C or dman.

 

The only guys id keep are Drouin and galchenyuk up front (Gallagher if we can’t be packaged as part of a deal for the elusive centre, or young stud dman), and Mete and Julsson.  From the kids I’d still hang onto Sherbek.

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Good for Lars. He's having his best season since 12-13 in Washington where they have no perception of him as anything other than a good third line centre. 

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hab29RETIRED    193

 

17 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Good for Lars. He's having his best season since 12-13 in Washington where they have no perception of him as anything other than a good third line centre. 

He would be perfect in that role here - if we had a #1 or #2 centre 

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28 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

He would be perfect in that role here - if we had a #1 or #2 centre 

The thing for me is that I would always rather a young centre in that #3 role or a cheap veteran. In an ideal world of course a top six calibre centre pushed down the depth chart but the cap doesn't really allow that most of the time.

 

I was fine with getting rid of Eller because we had Danault. But I would hate to see us then spending $3.5-$4M on Danault. I always prefer to spend the bulk of the cap on stars and as little as possible on the depth.

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zumpano21    53
2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

The thing for me is that I would always rather a young centre in that #3 role or a cheap veteran. In an ideal world of course a top six calibre centre pushed down the depth chart but the cap doesn't really allow that most of the time.

 

I was fine with getting rid of Eller because we had Danault. But I would hate to see us then spending $3.5-$4M on Danault. I always prefer to spend the bulk of the cap on stars and as little as possible on the depth.

 

 

Vegas would be a strong counterpoint to your argument.

 

I say that a uniformly strong 1-4th line is better than an elite 1st line and mediocre 3rd and 4th line.

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hab29RETIRED    193
3 hours ago, zumpano21 said:

 

 

Vegas would be a strong counterpoint to your argument.

 

I say that a uniformly strong 1-4th line is better than an elite 1st line and mediocre 3rd and 4th line.

Actually I think vegas first three lines are better than our first. Their 3 defensive pairings are better than our first  and their coaching staff is much better than ours.  I won’t bother commenting on the GM 

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5 hours ago, zumpano21 said:

 

 

Vegas would be a strong counterpoint to your argument.

 

I say that a uniformly strong 1-4th line is better than an elite 1st line and mediocre 3rd and 4th line.

 

There are many ways to build a winner, but I always thought the "roll 3-4 lines" model would work best for a team like the Habs that doesn't tank. You can't count on generational super-elite position players, so you have to overwhelm the opposition with wave after wave of good players. That seemed like the kind of team we were building around 2014, but...Bergevin.

 

Actually, given the number of OK young FWs we have, this kind of model might still be in reach. That may be one reason why a RNH-type deal appeals to me, it seems consistent with this non-top-heavy philosophy.

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zumpano21    53
7 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

There are many ways to build a winner, but I always thought the "roll 3-4 lines" model would work best for a team like the Habs that doesn't tank. You can't count on generational super-elite position players, so you have to overwhelm the opposition with wave after wave of good players. That seemed like the kind of team we were building around 2014, but...Bergevin.

 

Actually, given the number of OK young FWs we have, this kind of model might still be in reach. That may be one reason why a RNH-type deal appeals to me, it seems consistent with this non-top-heavy philosophy.

 

It depends on your slant.

 

Most regard hockey and american football as weak link sports. As in, you're better off improving the bottom end of your team rather than paying through the nose for elite talent.

 

Basketball runs counter to this.

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13 minutes ago, zumpano21 said:

 

It depends on your slant.

 

Most regard hockey and american football as weak link sports. As in, you're better off improving the bottom end of your team rather than paying through the nose for elite talent.

 

Basketball runs counter to this.

 

Good point.

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Commandant    716

19-3-2 at home

 

3 of the 5 teams who beat vegas were playing them on the 2nd night of a back to back (meaning no party in vegas the night before the game)

 

Vegas gets too much credit.  Its the vegas flu.  

 

Watch the 2nd and 3rd year in the league that home record wont hold up

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4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

19-3-2 at home

 

3 of the 5 teams who beat vegas were playing them on the 2nd night of a back to back (meaning no party in vegas the night before the game)

 

Vegas gets too much credit.  Its the vegas flu.  

 

Watch the 2nd and 3rd year in the league that home record wont hold up

 

Especially since many of their best players will be gone by year three. It's up to the GM to replace them.

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Metallica    2
13 minutes ago, Commandant said:

19-3-2 at home

 

3 of the 5 teams who beat vegas were playing them on the 2nd night of a back to back (meaning no party in vegas the night before the game)

 

Vegas gets too much credit.  Its the vegas flu.  

 

Watch the 2nd and 3rd year in the league that home record wont hold up

They got the cap space to take on Weber's contract if we can work out a trade with them 🤔

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John B    13

If the Habs decide to trade Weber at some point, Vegas would make sense as one of many potential destinations.  Since Weber doesn't have a NTC or a NMC, Habs could move him anywhere they please if they decide to deal him.  I don't think the Habs are looking to deal Weber though.  The only way he gets moved is if a team gives Bergevin an offer he can't refuse.

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