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I would choose Niemi over Lindgren


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16 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

If Lindgren can go down, sign Niemi. 

We're in a rebuild and trying to develop players. Signing Neimi is the exact opposite direction this team is heading. Especially with the amount of depth this organization has with goalie prospects. 

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4 hours ago, Habopotamus said:

We're in a rebuild and trying to develop players. Signing Neimi is the exact opposite direction this team is heading. Especially with the amount of depth this organization has with goalie prospects. 

I'm not so sure we are in a rebuild.  It seems as though Bergevin believes in the bones of this team and he's seems to be doing another retool.  Kind of like he did a couple years ago when the Habs had their last terrible season.

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4 hours ago, Habopotamus said:

We're in a rebuild and trying to develop players. Signing Neimi is the exact opposite direction this team is heading. Especially with the amount of depth this organization has with goalie prospects. 

I'm not trying to make things personal but it was only a few weeks ago that the trade deadline did not go "as you expected" even though you watch all the games and know what's best for this team. My only point is that your personal vision of the team doesn't actually line up with what the team is doing. A few weeks ago the team was doing the "wrong thing" by not accumulating prospects and picks for players like Pacioretty at the deadline and only a few weeks later you seem to be back on the vision of what we should be doing rather than what the team actually is doing.

 

There is a difference between saying the team should be rebuilding rather than stating that the team is rebuilding. 

 

The team doesn't seem to be rebuilding and I personally don't see why a rebuild is necessary when only a year ago we were only a "few pieces away". Some will argue we weren't, but I will argue we were. The only major flaw of the future is that we don't have Radulov anymore. Markov would have been soon gone anyway. Bergevin made mistakes and I don't particularly like him but the best conclusion I can come up with from those who truly want a rebuild is that they want a complete sweep and change of scenery from this core. I don't see the argument that it is definitely obvious that the team should be rebuilding. 

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1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I'm not trying to make things personal but it was only a few weeks ago that the trade deadline did not go "as you expected" even though you watch all the games and know what's best for this team. My only point is that your personal vision of the team doesn't actually line up with what the team is doing. A few weeks ago the team was doing the "wrong thing" by not accumulating prospects and picks for players like Pacioretty at the deadline and only a few weeks later you seem to be back on the vision of what we should be doing rather than what the team actually is doing.

 

There is a difference between saying the team should be rebuilding rather than stating that the team is rebuilding. 

 

The team doesn't seem to be rebuilding and I personally don't see why a rebuild is necessary when only a year ago we were only a "few pieces away". Some will argue we weren't, but I will argue we were. The only major flaw of the future is that we don't have Radulov anymore. Markov would have been soon gone anyway. Bergevin made mistakes and I don't particularly like him but the best conclusion I can come up with from those who truly want a rebuild is that they want a complete sweep and change of scenery from this core. I don't see the argument that it is definitely obvious that the team should be rebuilding. 

 "I'm Not trying to make things personal", but let me direct this comment directly at you.... Don't get upset because half of the novels you write on here make zero sense. 

 

 The team is "rebuilding" or "retooling". So I don't understand how "price lite" I mean Anti Neimi, is the right decision, when you have a line up of goalie prospects knocking at the door. Hell even for the sake of trade value, Lindgren should be in the back up role next season. 

 

As for me apparently knowing "what's best for the team". The writing is on the wall. The core of this team isn't winning together, which is the reason Pacioretty will more than likely be dealt in the off season. And I can guartunee it won't be for a 33 year old Jeff Carter, but it sounds like you "know what's best for the team", so what do I know. 

 

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There is a line up of goalies but the only one I would trust to win when price is not playing,  is Niemi. He should be signed. Winning hickey games is the goal. When price was hurt he showed he was the better goalie. That will change.  Soon. He is old.  But for next year I would rather game niemi. MB made this mistake with Budaj and Tokarski. I would wager he won t do it again.

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3 hours ago, Habopotamus said:

 "I'm Not trying to make things personal", but let me direct this comment directly at you.... Don't get upset because half of the novels you write on here make zero sense. 

 

 The team is "rebuilding" or "retooling". So I don't understand how "price lite" I mean Anti Neimi, is the right decision, when you have a line up of goalie prospects knocking at the door. Hell even for the sake of trade value, Lindgren should be in the back up role next season. 

 

As for me apparently knowing "what's best for the team". The writing is on the wall. The core of this team isn't winning together, which is the reason Pacioretty will more than likely be dealt in the off season. And I can guartunee it won't be for a 33 year old Jeff Carter, but it sounds like you "know what's best for the team", so what do I know. 

 

33 year old Jeff Carter is a stud.

 

Anyway, you were wrong about Pacioretty getting dealt at the trade deadline so let’s see if you strike out again in the off season when it comes to the discussion of him being traded and it doesn’t happen once again. 

 

Do I expect Pacioretty to be dealt for Carter? Of course not, because I don’t think he will be traded any time before next trade deadline, if he’s traded at all.

 

What I was going to add prior to your response is that I’m generally someone who tries to see the team remain competitive all the while not completely overlooking the future. That doesn’t mean my method is correct but I don’t go around saying that’s what the team is doing either. That’s what I would prefer. Just like I wanted to go “all in” by “overpaying” Radulov. 

 

The team isn’t rebuilding just because you want it to be. Find me anyone in the organization who won’t sincerely believe the goal is to make the playoffs next year. If Price goes down, Niemi is a much more reliable presence in terms of legitimately giving the team a shot. There’s also nothing wrong with Lindgren developing more in Laval and further in the season trading Niemi if push comes to shove. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

33 year old Jeff Carter is a stud.

 

Anyway, you were wrong about Pacioretty getting dealt at the trade deadline so let’s see if you strike out again in the off season when it comes to the discussion of him being traded and it doesn’t happen once again. 

 

Do I expect Pacioretty to be dealt for Carter? Of course not, because I don’t think he will be traded any time before next trade deadline, if he’s traded at all.

 

What I was going to add prior to your response is that I’m generally someone who tries to see the team remain competitive all the while not completely overlooking the future. That doesn’t mean my method is correct but I don’t go around saying that’s what the team is doing either. That’s what I would prefer. Just like I wanted to go “all in” by “overpaying” Radulov. 

 

The team isn’t rebuilding just because you want it to be. Find me anyone in the organization who won’t sincerely believe the goal is to make the playoffs next year. If Price goes down, Niemi is a much more reliable presence in terms of legitimately giving the team a shot. There’s also nothing wrong with Lindgren developing more in Laval and further in the season trading Niemi if push comes to shove. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PACs will get traded. After a season like this someone has to fall on the sword and be the sacrifial lamb.  Two years ago it should have been Therrian (and MB in my opinion), but MB moved Subban.  This year MB should not have lasted through the season, but that moron Molson gave him another chance - which amounts to a vote of confidence.  The captain will be gone probably by the draft, otherwise sometime in the summer.

 

your delusional if you think Pacioretty won’t be moved and despite what he said after the trade deadline (what else was he going to say as captain), I doubt if he wants to be in this gong show any longer.

 

if MB had a brain, which he’s already proven he doesn’t, he’d also move Weber and Price and build for the future.

 

and yeah, a 33 year old Jeff carter would be the type of move I can see MB making.  Perfect casting for the team intent on defying the no league for old men direction the rest of th NHL is going.

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People are more likely delusional if they indeed think he will actually be moved this year.

 

He had more value being moved at the trade deadline this year to a team who would have wanted him for two playoff runs than he will have at the draft. 

 

Players of Pacioretty’s caliber don’t simply just get traded because fans in the city make remarks about them. Furthermore as much as I’ve heard people like Kypreos state that “it’s common knowledge that Pacioretty wants out”, I’d have to disagree.

 

I’m an athlete and coach who understands psychology and my opinion would be that while there are definitely going to be times Pacioretty hates it in Montreal, there will also be times where he reflects about the fact that he is captain of one of the greatest organizations. He may not mind being moved, but he will certainly have mixed emotions. Things can also change in the off season in terms of Pacioretty’s emotional mindset.

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7 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

PACs will get traded. After a season like this someone has to fall on the sword and be the sacrifial lamb.  Two years ago it should have been Therrian (and MB in my opinion), but MB moved Subban.  This year MB should not have lasted through the season, but that moron Molson gave him another chance - which amounts to a vote of confidence.  The captain will be gone probably by the draft, otherwise sometime in the summer.

 

your delusional if you think Pacioretty won’t be moved and despite what he said after the trade deadline (what else was he going to say as captain), I doubt if he wants to be in this gong show any longer.

 

if MB had a brain, which he’s already proven he doesn’t, he’d also move Weber and Price and build for the future.

 

and yeah, a 33 year old Jeff carter would be the type of move I can see MB making.  Perfect casting for the team intent on defying the no league for old men direction the rest of th NHL is going.

 Engles said in interview right after deadline day, he was suprised Pacioretty wasn't dealt and that it wasn't for not trying. The asking price was just too high for a deadline move and no one was willing to give up a roster piece. 

 

Engles also went on to say he's 99.9% sure Pacioretty will be moved in the off season. Which is a pretty bold statement.

 

The entire reason Bergevin is calling this a "reset" is because it looks bad on him calling it a rebuild. These are the years we're suppose to be in contention for a cup, but instead were chasing a top 5 pick. He will not publicly admit defeat, because it looks bad on his image. 

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7 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I’m an athlete and coach who understands psychology and my opinion would be that while there are definitely going to be times Pacioretty hates it in Montreal, there will also be times where he reflects about the fact that he is captain of one of the greatest organizations. He may not mind being moved, but he will certainly have mixed emotions. Things can also change in the off season in terms of Pacioretty’s emotional mindset.

 

How long would you want to stay being known as the worst captain in a great organization's history? Because that's Pacioretty's legacy right now.

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Ummmm... I'm assuming we are only counting Pacioretty's time as an actual captain and not before. 

Mike Keane accomplished what as captain, other than being railroaded out of town?

Pierre Turgeon accomplished what as captain?

Kirk Muller, great hab... captain for 33 games. 

Chris Chelios, captain for 53 games. 
Doug Harvey, captain for 58 games.

Walt Buswell, captain for 46 games in the worst statistical season in franchise history. 

 

 

Is he really the worst captain in franchise history?

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46 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

What is the measure of a good or bad captain? Talked to the refs good and did good ceremonial faceoffs?

Messier or a Beliveau would be at one end of spectrum and maybe a Yashin (Ovechkin?)... at other. 

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5 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

How long would you want to stay being known as the worst captain in a great organization's history? Because that's Pacioretty's legacy right now.

If it were me personally, I would probably want to work hard to change that legacy, as cliché as it sounds. There's only a subset of the fan base who think Pacioretty is truly terrible in every shape, way and form. They will probably come to the conclusion that Pacioretty is not the type of person to put in the effort to change his supposed legacy. 

 

He's certainly getting older but Pacioretty came back from a broken neck in record time and has scored many big goals for us, especially against the Bruins. That he hasn't performed in the playoffs or under a Tortorella ran USA team full of talent doesn't speak to his goal scoring ability. Pacioretty can be a fine captain, goal scorer and playoff performer given the right supporting cast. The problem is that he is so far and above everyone on the team in point scoring ability. The closest who has come in recent years is Radulov and he was only here for a year. I believe Drouin and Galchenyuk have the potential to become better than Pacioretty but they have never been at his level yet and he will (hopefully) not regress to a massive extent for another 5-6 years. 

 

I understand that he may have been pissed off this year but it doesn't mean he wants out and it also doesn't mean he will be traded. It's also not necessarily true that Pacioretty cannot win a cup because he is not a playoff performer nor that he can never win a cup with the Habs because of the manner in which he has been treated by the city/because he is old and we will not have a good core in his window. 

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PS: Sign Niemi

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55 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

If it were me personally, I would probably want to work hard to change that legacy, as cliché as it sounds.

 

He has a year left on a contract that left a lot of money off his table in his best years. 

 

He probably could get the best contract in Montreal for that reason, that we owe him, but why sign him for that extra money?

 

Every season he's been captain the general manager has complained about leadership in the locker. What is he supposed to do to change that?

 

I don't see why we keep Pacioretty. Our depth is at the wing. He isn't going to be worth what he wants. And even if he did stay it's probably best to take the C off of him like San Jose did with Marleau. Take the pressure off.

 

I think people are just sentimental over him. Move on. He will be around for alumni games. He ain't winning a Cup here. 

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7 hours ago, Commandant said:

Ummmm... I'm assuming we are only counting Pacioretty's time as an actual captain and not before. 

Mike Keane accomplished what as captain, other than being railroaded out of town?

Pierre Turgeon accomplished what as captain?

Kirk Muller, great hab... captain for 33 games. 

Chris Chelios, captain for 53 games. 
Doug Harvey, captain for 58 games.

Walt Buswell, captain for 46 games in the worst statistical season in franchise history. 

 

 

Is he really the worst captain in franchise history?

Can’t really compare guys that were captains for less than a season.  Having said that, most of those guys like Pacioretty and Damphousse were captains of the teams run by the worst management teams in habs history.  It’s not on them, it’s on the incompetent manager team and by extension, ownership. 

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2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

If it were me personally, I would probably want to work hard to change that legacy, as cliché as it sounds. There's only a subset of the fan base who think Pacioretty is truly terrible in every shape, way and form. They will probably come to the conclusion that Pacioretty is not the type of person to put in the effort to change his supposed legacy. 

 

He's certainly getting older but Pacioretty came back from a broken neck in record time and has scored many big goals for us, especially against the Bruins. That he hasn't performed in the playoffs or under a Tortorella ran USA team full of talent doesn't speak to his goal scoring ability. Pacioretty can be a fine captain, goal scorer and playoff performer given the right supporting cast. The problem is that he is so far and above everyone on the team in point scoring ability. The closest who has come in recent years is Radulov and he was only here for a year. I believe Drouin and Galchenyuk have the potential to become better than Pacioretty but they have never been at his level yet and he will (hopefully) not regress to a massive extent for another 5-6 years. 

 

I understand that he may have been pissed off this year but it doesn't mean he wants out and it also doesn't mean he will be traded. It's also not necessarily true that Pacioretty cannot win a cup because he is not a playoff performer nor that he can never win a cup with the Habs because of the manner in which he has been treated by the city/because he is old and we will not have a good core in his window. 

Why would he want to come back and how can he change his legacy as long as the team is managed and poorly constructed.  Shane Doan turned numerous opportunities to leave and stuck with his Phoenix.  What did it get him?? Being forced out by ownership and in my mind the legacy of a guy who would rather lose somewhere where he could be comfortable, rather than go somewhere that he had a chance to win.

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

He has a year left on a contract that left a lot of money off his table in his best years. 

 

He probably could get the best contract in Montreal for that reason, that we owe him, but why sign him for that extra money?

 

Every season he's been captain the general manager has complained about leadership in the locker. What is he supposed to do to change that?

 

I don't see why we keep Pacioretty. Our depth is at the wing. He isn't going to be worth what he wants. And even if he did stay it's probably best to take the C off of him like San Jose did with Marleau. Take the pressure off.

 

I think people are just sentimental over him. Move on. He will be around for alumni games. He ain't winning a Cup here. 

I can’t see even see MB wanting to resign him.   

 

As as far as MB complaining about leadership.  You could have swapped Pacioretty with  Bealiveau on this team as captain.  As constructed, this team would still be losing and MB would call it a leaderahip and character issue.  The biggest issue was the management team out of clue with the direction the NHL was going and the former bouncer behind the bench.

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7 hours ago, Commandant said:

Ummmm... I'm assuming we are only counting Pacioretty's time as an actual captain and not before. 

Mike Keane accomplished what as captain, other than being railroaded out of town?

Pierre Turgeon accomplished what as captain?

Kirk Muller, great hab... captain for 33 games. 

Chris Chelios, captain for 53 games. 
Doug Harvey, captain for 58 games.

Walt Buswell, captain for 46 games in the worst statistical season in franchise history. 

 

 

Is he really the worst captain in franchise history?

 

Keane is usually my selection for worst captain, but he was also captain for like 18 games.

 

Turgeon was a great player and all things considered not a problem as captain. The coach simply didn't like him.

 

Muller got traded for Turgeon, he didn't really have time to show he was bad or not.

 

Harvey got traded for arguing for players to make more money. What a terrible captain.

 

Walt Buswell? Your argument for Pacioretty is Walt Buswell?

 

Pacioretty will be captain for three seasons, two of which they missed the playoffs, once they were dropped by a team who is now no longer a playoff team, and in every year the GM has complained about a lack of leadership on the team. The captain is chosen by the players, who are represented by the GM, who will be the first GM since Leo Dandurand to miss the playoffs more than twice while being GM. 

 

Maybe he's a victim of Montreal usually choosing great captains in their history, but Pacioretty is unfortunately the captain during one of the worst periods of the franchise and has done nothing to repair it. Look at it this way: how is he a better captain than Brian Gionta? Vincent Damphousse? Saku Koivu, who had in-fighting as captain through much of his time?

 

Is it a meaningless debate? Sure, but if Pacioretty was a real leader, he'd take the C off himself.

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13 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Keane is usually my selection for worst captain, but he was also captain for like 18 games.

 

Turgeon was a great player and all things considered not a problem as captain. The coach simply didn't like him.

 

Muller got traded for Turgeon, he didn't really have time to show he was bad or not.

 

Harvey got traded for arguing for players to make more money. What a terrible captain.

 

Walt Buswell? Your argument for Pacioretty is Walt Buswell?

 

Pacioretty will be captain for three seasons, two of which they missed the playoffs, once they were dropped by a team who is now no longer a playoff team, and in every year the GM has complained about a lack of leadership on the team. The captain is chosen by the players, who are represented by the GM, who will be the first GM since Leo Dandurand to miss the playoffs more than twice while being GM. 

 

Maybe he's a victim of Montreal usually choosing great captains in their history, but Pacioretty is unfortunately the captain during one of the worst periods of the franchise and has done nothing to repair it. Look at it this way: how is he a better captain than Brian Gionta? Vincent Damphousse? Saku Koivu, who had in-fighting as captain through much of his time?

 

Is it a meaningless debate? Sure, but if Pacioretty was a real leader, he'd take the C off himself.

Sitter ripped his “C” of his jersey when the leafs traded lanny MacDonald to the Rockies.  He was ripped and vilified by the media as a statement against management and ownership.  When imlach was out of the picture the following year, Sittler was back as captain, but ended up fighting with Ballard again and was eventually traded.

 

So I can’t see a hockey player ever doing that again.  We are now the 80’s leafs.  Would I want Pacioretty to handle things differently.  Sure.  Would I have preferred another year with no captain, definitely.  Do I think Subban would have been a better captain, probably.  But this is not a player or captain issue.  Its a management issue.  Like I said earlier.  You could have Bealiveau or Richard in Pacioretty’s place this team would still suck with therrien or Julien as coach and MB the GM.

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11 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

So I can’t see a hockey player ever doing that again.  We are now the 80’s leafs.  Would I want Pacioretty to handle things differently.  Sure.  Would I have preferred another year with no captain, definitely.  Do I think Subban would have been a better captain, probably.  But this is not a player or captain issue.  Its a management issue.  Like I said earlier.  You could have Bealiveau or Richard in Pacioretty’s place this team would still suck with therrien or Julien as coach and MB the GM.

 

I agree. As I said, the players pick the captain and the players are chosen by the GM. If the players all chose Jacob de La Rose, that's the captain they chose good or bad. But the player doesn't have to say yes.  And if you don't think you can handle the job, you're a poor leader to stick it through than drop it yourself.

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Captains take ceremonial faceoffs and talk to refs. You guys are putting way too much stock in good captain bad captain stuff. Pacioretty is a fine captain. He talks to refs good takes ceremonial faceoffs good.

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