I would choose Niemi over Lindgren

[Commandant]

2 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Can’t really compare guys that were captains for less than a season.  Having said that, most of those guys like Pacioretty and Damphousse were captains of the teams run by the worst management teams in habs history.  It’s not on them, it’s on the incompetent manager team and by extension, ownership. 

 

For some, there might be reasons why they were captains for only one season. 

 

 

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, BCHabnut said:

Captains take ceremonial faceoffs and talk to refs. You guys are putting way too much stock in good captain bad captain stuff. Pacioretty is a fine captain. He talks to refs good takes ceremonial faceoffs good.

 

Pretty much.  Plust he has to skate harder cause he has 2 ounces of fabric extra on his jersey.

[Commandant]

The Pierre Turgeon stuff is pretty funny. 

 

Was he a great player? sure.

 

According to what is typically defined as leadership, was he a leader?  NOPE, not in any way, shape or form. 

 

He was basically the Phil Kessel of his era.  Yes, he could put up points, and was a good player, no doubt about that... but was also soft as butter, not a leader by example, didn't play defence, etc.... 

 

I'd still take him on my team.  But if you actually want a captain to be a leader and you believe in that leadership stuff, he was a horrible choice. 

 

Easily the guy who clicks none of the boxes of the narrative of what a captain is supposed to be. 

[hab29RETIRED]

5 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

For some, there might be reasons why they were captains for only one season. 

 

 

Umm,  they were traded - some stupidly so - Keane as an unnecessary throw in, turgeon in an incredibly stupid trade.  Muller in one of the few good trades that Savard made in his last days.

 

if I recall Keane actually won two more cups after leaving Montreal.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Oh leadership is playing defence now. 

 

Gotcha. 

[Commandant]

Just now, hab29RETIRED said:

Umm,  they were traded - some stupidly so - Keane as an unnecessary throw in, turgeon in an incredibly stupid trade.  Muller in one of the few trades that Savard made in his last days.

 

if I recall Keane actually won two more cups after leaving Montreal.

 

some were traded for bad reasons...  no doubt. 

 

not sure that applies to everyone on my list though. 

[hab29RETIRED]

2 minutes ago, Commandant said:

The Pierre Turgeon stuff is pretty funny. 

 

Was he a great player? sure.

 

According to what is typically defined as leadership, was he a leader?  NOPE, not in any way, shape or form. 

 

He was basically the Phil Kessel of his era.  Yes, he could put up points, and was a good player, no doubt about that... but was also soft as butter, not a leader by example, didn't play defence, etc.... 

 

I'd still take him on my team.  But if you actually want a captain to be a leader and you believe in that leadership stuff, he was a horrible choice. 

 

Easily the guy who clicks none of the boxes of the narrative of what a captain is supposed to be. 

Turgeon was made captain because Corey wanted a French captain.  If we didn’t have that idiot  Tremblay as coach and houle as the GM, he would have been a great player in Montreal.

[Commandant]

1 minute ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Oh leadership is playing defence now. 

 

Gotcha. 

 

um thats not what i said. 

 

But if you want someone to lead by example, turgeon was a finnesse player who didn't go in the corners, and didn't backcheck.

 

You seem to believe in the clutch theory, ... quick go look up turgeon's playoff stats, not just in montreal, but his entire career. 

 

When his entire team was fighting against the Russians in 1987 there were two players who didn't fight.... 1) Jimmy Waite, cause he was Canada's only healthy goalie and the coaches stopped him from being in the punchup in Piestany.... and 2) Turgeon, who stood by and watched as two Russians were beating up Stephane Roy and refused to get involved.  Roy had broken bones in his face. Players involved with that team never forgave Turgeon for that... called him a coward. 

Turgeon was a quiet guy who didn't like talking to the media. 

 

He also wasn't known for his locker room speeches. 

 

Anything else we want to go over?

[hab29RETIRED]

3 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Oh leadership is playing defence now. 

 

Gotcha. 

Yeah, that and the ceremonial faceoffs is what made Bealiveau such a great captain and leader revered by all his teammates. And it’s messier and rocket Richards defencive play that that made them great captains.

[hab29RETIRED]

3 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

um thats not what i said. 

 

But if you want someone to lead by example, turgeon was a finnesse player who didn't go in the corners, and didn't backcheck.

 

You seem to believe in the clutch theory, ... quick go look up turgeon's playoff stats, not just in montreal, but his entire career. 

 

When his entire team was fighting against the Russians in 1987 there were two players who didn't fight.... 1) Jimmy Waite, cause he was Canada's only healthy goalie and the coaches stopped him from being in the punchup in Piestany.... and 2) Turgeon, who stood by and watched as two Russians were beating up Stephane Roy and refused to get involved.  Roy had broken bones in his face. Players involved with that team never forgave Turgeon for that... called him a coward. 

Turgeon was a quiet guy who didn't like talking to the media. 

 

He also wasn't known for his locker room speeches. 

 

Anything else we want to go over?

Gretzky was a finesse player, who hung around his blue line waiting for the breakout pass a lot - but yeah lousy captain, coz you know he had semanko and mcsorely fight for him.  So it’s defensive play, fighting and ceremonial face offs that good captains do.

[hab29RETIRED]

10 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Oh leadership is playing defence now. 

 

Gotcha. 

Actually he is kind of right. Bergevin’s Next captain will be playing defence for us next year.  You know the guy who’s hurt now and was moved for the guy who’s name some on this site don’t want uttered again.

[Commandant]

1 minute ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Gretzky was a finesse player, who hung around his blue line waiting for the breakout pass a lot - but yeah lousy captain.

 

When I list 5 or 6 issues and you focus on 1?

 

A guy can succeed if he does other things. 
 

Gretzky was very good at dealing with the media, and was the face of not just a franchise, but of a league. 

 

Gretzky was good in the room, had close relationships with his teammates, and was clearly a guy who they respected when he spoke up. 

 

He was a conduit between players on the team and the coaching staff. 

 

He was an unselfish player who made everyone around him better.  His ridiculous assist totals were always going to get him major respect. 

[hab29RETIRED]

2 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

When I list 5 or 6 issues and you focus on 1?

 

A guy can succeed if he does other things. 
 

Gretzky was very good at dealing with the media, and was the face of not just a franchise, but of a league. 

 

Gretzky was good in the room, had close relationships with his teammates, and was clearly a guy who they respected when he spoke up. 

 

He was a conduit between players on the team and the coaching staff. 

 

He was an unselfish player who made everyone around him better.  His ridiculous assist totals were always going to get him major respect. 

Actually you’ve said many times the captains main job is to take ceremonial faceoffs.

[Commandant]

6 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Yeah, that and the ceremonial faceoffs is what made Bealiveau such a great captain and leader revered by all his teammates. And it’s messier and rocket Richards defencive play that that made them great captains.

 

Beliveau was a hell of a two-way player.   He was also outstanding with the media, and representing the team in the community.  He had the respect of all his teammates, something Turgeon never had.  He never backed down from defending a teammate, even as the best offensive player on the team. There is a heck of a lot there.

 

But sure focus on one thing and not the totality of the issues turgeon had. 

[Commandant]

10 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Actually you’ve said many times the captains main job is to take ceremonial faceoffs.

 

I've also said that is how it is in 2018.... i've never said that is what it always has been. 

 

I've also said that leadership is a real thing.... but that you don't need a letter to be a leader.  Price is always going to be a leader, even without a letter on his jersey. 

 

How about you quit putting words in my mouth that you think I have said and read what I actually have written?

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I'll repeat.

 

If the players choose the captain and the gm manages the players, the captain is a reflection of the GM. 

 

Houle's era was a revolving door of captains capped by Damphousse, arguably the last great French Canadian player to play for Montreal unless high count Tanguay or a broken down Briere.

 

Bergevin had Gionta who was picked before he came in then had Pacioretty. Bergevin went from a strong team that needed a few pieces to the disaster we have today. A well managed cap that doesn't accomplish enough but has a lot of excuses. Kinda like Pacioretty.

 

Everything else is just silly debate really. To me it's just a symbol, and on Pacioretty it symbolizes a point of no return.

[BCHabnut]

Obviously you want the captain to be someone who sets a good example on and off the ice. Leads by example. Deals well with the media. Is not a wing nut.  But honestly. Why is pacioretty a bad captain? He does those things. Why did everyone say saku was a bad captain? In the end, you want to have a team with leaders. Whether they are designated or are just seen as leaders. The reason I mock it is because nobody knows what is talked about behind closed doors. I just think too much stock is put on it. Towes is the greatest captain since messier. Why? What does he do as a leader more than anyone else? Have a serious face? He didnt put the team on his back and lead his team to success. Is he the worst this year because Chicago sucks? 

[Commandant]

Messier, greatest captain ever. 

 

Played on teams with the top payroll in the NHL the last 4 years of his career, and a top 5 payroll in the 3 years before that.

 

The last 7 years of his career, he didn't make the playoffs once, despite his team having very high priced talent. 

 

What did all his leadership mean for those clubs?
 

[Machine of Loving Grace]

1 minute ago, Commandant said:

Messier, greatest captain ever. 

 

Played on teams with the top payroll in the NHL the last 4 years of his career, and a top 5 payroll in the 3 years before that.

 

The last 7 years of his career, he didn't make the playoffs once, despite his team having very high priced talent. 

 

What did all his leadership mean for those clubs?
 

Messier was overrated as a leader. He was good at selling potato chips though. 

 

But I mean carry on with trying to shoot fish you put in the barrel?

[BCHabnut]

28 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Messier was overrated as a leader. He was good at selling potato chips though. 

 

But I mean carry on with trying to shoot fish you put in the barrel?

Most people would argue he is the greatest captain ever so I don't think he is reaching in his arguement. 

[DON]

7 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

Most people would argue he is the greatest captain ever so I don't think he is reaching in his arguement. 

Seems many ex-players see him as one of best leaders (Nilan was asked recently and said he was toughest guy to play against), he played a pretty tough game with the oilers and piling up almost 1900pts isn't too shabby neither. Helping Rangers finally win cup also seen as a big deal...then he went to Vancouver. 

[BCHabnut]

I kind of think everyone is missing the point. I'm not questioning anyone's leadership or its value. I'm questioning rating a player because we feel he is a bad captain. There are countless examples of good players who happened to be captain, but played on bad teams. To let them go because they weren't good captains doesn't make sense to me. Let them go because you can improve the team. Sure. But getting rid of Pacioretty so you can get a better captain just doesn't make any sense to me. 

[Machine of Loving Grace]

9 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

Most people would argue he is the greatest captain ever so I don't think he is reaching in his arguement. 

 

Which is why he's overrated. That's the definition of being overrated. People thinking something is more than it is.

[hab29RETIRED]

2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Which is why he's overrated. That's the definition of being overrated. People thinking something is more than it is.

At the end of the day a captain is only going to be as good as the team he’s on. Messier got the allocates for the “guaranteed win” with the rangers.  But that was a stacked team, with Leetch as their true MVP, along with zubov, Richter solid in net, a 50 goal man in graves, secondary scoring from  tikkannan, Latimer, nemchinov and a young Kovolev.  

 

The big big alarm bell on the messier leadership myth came not from his time in Vancouver (when he really no longer was a difference maker anyway), it came after the Gretzky trade.  Jimmy Carson was still a solid scorer in his first year with the oilers and messier reportedly ripped him consistently for basically not being Gretzky and the guy who came over in the gretzky trade.  A real leader wouldn’t have done that.  But hey, the oilers still win two more cups after the trade, and messier along with fellow oilers Tikkannen, Lowe and Beukaboom won another cup with the rangers. But those were stacked teams.

 

Pacioretty is on at worst a crap team and at best a mediocre team, constructed by a lousy management team.  He couldn’t carry this team on his shoulders if he tried.  Leadership without enough supporting talent is yzerman on the pre-bowman Wings, Francis in Hartford, Lemieux during his first 6 years in the league.  

 

At the end of the day WITH enough supporting talent, a solid coach and front office staff, leadership can help a team take the next step.  Leaderships without he other pieces, means squat.  Talent and depth with talent, not the crap “character” grunt depth that MB is pre-occupied with accumulating is what is required to win.  Which is why I’ve previously stated, you could have Bealiveau or Richard as the captain of these recent habs teams and they wouldn’t win squat.