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2018 NHL Playoff Thread

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

As you write this.... Marc-Andre Fleury and Patrick Marleau are proving the clutch/choke arguments are a myth; and simply a matter of small sample size. 

 

Regular season results are a better indicator of future playoff results, then past playoff results are. 

 

The Marleau one was always silly. He's an all time playoff scorer, especially for playoff GWG. 

 

Fleury sucked in his prime in the playoffs. He redeemed himself last spring, but it was redeeming almost a decade of disappointing playoff play. 

 

Pacioretty sure likes to be streaky when the defence gets tighter. But in all honesty he's just an overall disappointment. That doesn't make him a bad player, just not the guy you build your offence around. He's a passenger not a driver. Nothing wrong with that until he's about to be a UFA.

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2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

The Marleau one was always silly. He's an all time playoff scorer, especially for playoff GWG. 

 

Fleury sucked in his prime in the playoffs. He redeemed himself last spring, but it was redeeming almost a decade of disappointing playoff play. 

 

Pacioretty sure likes to be streaky when the defence gets tighter. But in all honesty he's just an overall disappointment. That doesn't make him a bad player, just not the guy you build your offence around. He's a passenger not a driver. Nothing wrong with that until he's about to be a UFA.

 

I have to agree on Fleury. That guy was a dog in a number of playoffs, as I recall. Really bad. I could never understand the Pens' allegiance to them, and don't rate it as coincidental that they won two Cups once they finally threw him in the back seat.

 

Pacioretty, like any goal scorer, is not really the linch-pin of an elite offence. Too hot and cold, doesn't really make teammates better, etc.. But is he a front liner on an elite team? 100%, any day of the week.

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Pacioretty has had two seasons with 10 and 11 game winning goals respectively. 

 

He was a disappointment last season. He hasn’t been one in general. 

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Fleury and Price very similar playoff stats.

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:pray: I pray the Ducks implode after their sweep and cough up Fowler to the Habs in a panic move :pray:

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29 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

:pray: I pray the Ducks implode after their sweep and cough up Fowler to the Habs in a panic move :pray:

 

Pacioretty would be a great fit in Anaheim. Fowler's contract is a bit scary though  

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11 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Pacioretty has had two seasons with 10 and 11 game winning goals respectively. 

 

He was a disappointment last season. He hasn’t been one in general. 

 

He was disappointing against New York. His overall playoff numbers are average I guess, similar to Arvidsson, but nobody would say Arvidsson is the guy you build your offence around.

 

We honestly should have traded him back in 2015 when there was still a lot left on his deal and cap strung teams would go crazy for his low cap hit. But hey, we needed those regulation game winning goals.

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2 hours ago, illWill said:

 

Pacioretty would be a great fit in Anaheim. Fowler's contract is a bit scary though  

So would Galchenyuk and to a lesser degree Scherbak if they want a prospect with upside and some other pieces 

 

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

He was disappointing against New York. His overall playoff numbers are average I guess, similar to Arvidsson, but nobody would say Arvidsson is the guy you build your offence around.

 

We honestly should have traded him back in 2015 when there was still a lot left on his deal and cap strung teams would go crazy for his low cap hit. But hey, we needed those regulation game winning goals.

 

With the exception of Pleks, no one from the core should have been traded in 2015. We should have *added* to that core, which went to the semi-finals the previous year. Instead MB moved Subban, did nothing to address the C issue, did nothing to anticipate the eventual loss of Markov, etc, etc, etc.. 

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59 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

With the exception of Pleks, no one from the core should have been traded in 2015. We should have *added* to that core, which went to the semi-finals the previous year. Instead MB moved Subban, did nothing to address the C issue, did nothing to anticipate the eventual loss of Markov, etc, etc, etc.. 

I’ve often felt as though there is a very small subset of the fan base who want Pacioretty gone partly because of the Subban deal and how there was perceived to be a Pacioretty vs Subban divide amongst the players. 

 

It’s like they are saying “see MB, you should have traded Pacioretty and kept Subban”. People can disagree with me and I’m not saying this applies to anyone here so please don’t feel that way. In addition, there are obviously valid reasons to trade Pacioretty at this point time. But I can’t help but feel as though these subconscious waters are still churning amongst some. 

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1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

So would Galchenyuk and to a lesser degree Scherbak if they want a prospect with upside and some other pieces 

 

 

We shouldn't be trading away players under the age of 25 IMO. 

 

Much better to trade the guy who is about 5 years older. 

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4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

We shouldn't be trading away players under the age of 25 IMO. 

 

Much better to trade the guy who is about 5 years older. 

Beggars can't be choosers , they say

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

With the exception of Pleks, no one from the core should have been traded in 2015. We should have *added* to that core, which went to the semi-finals the previous year. Instead MB moved Subban, did nothing to address the C issue, did nothing to anticipate the eventual loss of Markov, etc, etc, etc.. 

 

I think you could get that top centre in a package with Pacioretty back in 2015. At $4.5 million for a cap tight team he had massive value. Now? He's just a rental. 

 

But I have a low opinion on Pacioretty these days. I've watched a lot of Predators this year. He doesn't remind me of Forsberg or Arvidsson but Craig Smith. Nobody here would go gaga over having Craig Smith but 4 of his last 5 seasons were with 20+ goals, he's a solid 2RW with speed and sometimes scores important goals. Pacioretty is a slightly better version of that on the left wing and we have treated Pacioretty like some elite talent who would score 50 goals with a top centre, when he's never shown that in international competition or when he had Galchenyuk putting up top centre numbers. His goal scoring actually went down with Chuck. 

 

So I guess I see it how Savard saw Stephane Richer back in the day. He shouldn't have been the guy but the guy who gets us the guy. 

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10 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Beggars can't be choosers , they say

 

We've done enough trading away of young players for older ones.  Trading away more young players to get guys in their late 20s isn't going to lead to cup wins. 

 

Its the analogy of putting your finger in the hole in the dike.  It stops the leak for a few seconds until a new one pops up.  

 

We have a number of young forwards, we need to build with them. 

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3 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

I think you could get that top centre in a package with Pacioretty back in 2015. At $4.5 million for a cap tight team he had massive value. Now? He's just a rental. 

 

But I have a low opinion on Pacioretty these days. I've watched a lot of Predators this year. He doesn't remind me of Forsberg or Arvidsson but Craig Smith. Nobody here would go gaga over having Craig Smith but 4 of his last 5 seasons were with 20+ goals, he's a solid 2RW with speed and sometimes scores important goals. Pacioretty is a slightly better version of that on the left wing and we have treated Pacioretty like some elite talent who would score 50 goals with a top centre, when he's never shown that in international competition or when he had Galchenyuk putting up top centre numbers. His goal scoring actually went down with Chuck. 

 

So I guess I see it how Savard saw Stephane Richer back in the day. He shouldn't have been the guy but the guy who gets us the guy. 

 

Craig smith is a poor man's Pacioretty in the same way that David Desharnais is a poor man's Crosby. 

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8 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Craig smith is a poor man's Pacioretty in the same way that David Desharnais is a poor man's Crosby. 

 

Smith: 13 points in 33 playoff games

Pacioretty: 19 points in 38 playoff games

 

Same amount of playoff game winning goals too.

 

At their cap hits I would of course take Max, but after next summer? Would probably take Smith at $4.2M. Still get 20+ goals, same playoff production, seems like the smarter bet.

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37 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Smith: 13 points in 33 playoff games

Pacioretty: 19 points in 38 playoff games

 

 

 

I have to admit...those numbers are pretty brutal

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49 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

We've done enough trading away of young players for older ones.  Trading away more young players to get guys in their late 20s isn't going to lead to cup wins. 

 

Its the analogy of putting your finger in the hole in the dike.  It stops the leak for a few seconds until a new one pops up.  

 

We have a number of young forwards, we need to build with them. 

Commandant, I am just trying to voice the point of view where we go for a reset with the current core (Price/Weber/Pacioretty) within the next 3 years. If we follow this logic and try to Fowler from Anaheim we might have to give up on another potential 30 goal LW who would interest the Ducks.

 

If we go for a rebuild, I agree with you

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Pacioretty is Montreal’s best forward and Craig Smith is Nashvilles’s fourth or fifth best player. Even on Montreal, he would be our fourth or fifth best forward. 

 

I would take Craig Smith on my team but what’s the point in arguing we shoukd take him at .5x dollars compared to Pacioretty’s x dollars? I’d rather have them both. One thing has nothing to do with the other and I don’t see how he’s Pacioretty light. Because he’s not incredibly fast and has a good wrist shot?

 

I could just as well argue that Evander Kane is Pacioretty light during the regular season based on their statistical history.

 

Pacioretty has spent years being one of the best 3 goal scorers in the entire league and that’s obviously elite. The “50 goal” expectation numbers are completely made up and Galchenyuk is not a top line center even if I want him to be. 

 

He’s been bad overall in the playoffs but he’s only played 4 playoff seasons.  In one of them, our team got swept and against the Rangers he disappeared. I’m  not making excuses for him but there could be several reasons, like injury, that make that the case. In any scenario, 38 games is less than most players you can think of when it comes to how many playoff games they’ve played so its’s not entirely indicative of how he will perform in the future. 

 

As for international play, Pacioretty has 13 points in 19 games. People look at his olympics where he was being Tortered by Torterella and overlook that he had 12 points in 8 games for team USA at the world’s in 2012. Again a small sample either way.

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2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Smith: 13 points in 33 playoff games

Pacioretty: 19 points in 38 playoff games

 

Same amount of playoff game winning goals too.

 

At their cap hits I would of course take Max, but after next summer? Would probably take Smith at $4.2M. Still get 20+ goals, same playoff production, seems like the smarter bet.

 

Fun with small sample sizes.  Their production over their careers is not close to similar. 

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1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Commandant, I am just trying to voice the point of view where we go for a reset with the current core (Price/Weber/Pacioretty) within the next 3 years. If we follow this logic and try to Fowler from Anaheim we might have to give up on another potential 30 goal LW who would interest the Ducks.

 

If we go for a rebuild, I agree with you

 

Fowler is a pipe dream. 

 

he was rumoured to be available two years ago, sure. 

 

But since that time he has emerged as the Ducks best defenceman and the team has traded Shea Theodore and Sami Vatanen. 

You can see the impact he had as he did not play a playoff game, and the Ducks got run over. 

 

I think its highly unlikely that they move him. 

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34 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Fun with small sample sizes.  Their production over their careers is not close to similar. 

 

Here's the great thing about the playoffs: it's always small sample sizes. If you can't perform in those small sample sizes, you shouldn't be relied upon.

 

Max Pacioretty is a first line forward who is paid for his regular season production. Nobody pays him for his playoff production. Then again, if we think of his current contract as paying him for his playoff production, he's paid accordingly and we shouldn't offer him a dime more.

 

Honestly Pacioretty is just an easy target. This entire club has pretty much been an example of a team that struggles in the spring. Just another reason why the whole thing should be set on fire and start over. 

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List of most goals scored since 2011 heading into this season

 

Ovechkin

Stamkos

Pavelski

Pacioretty

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Craig Smith

 

 

 

What are we talking about here?

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Here's the great thing about the playoffs: it's always small sample sizes. If you can't perform in those small sample sizes, you shouldn't be relied upon.

 

Max Pacioretty is a first line forward who is paid for his regular season production. Nobody pays him for his playoff production. Then again, if we think of his current contract as paying him for his playoff production, he's paid accordingly and we shouldn't offer him a dime more.

 

Honestly Pacioretty is just an easy target. This entire club has pretty much been an example of a team that struggles in the spring. Just another reason why the whole thing should be set on fire and start over. 

 

The thing with small sample sizes is that they are not projections of future success.  

 

We see it every year... the former playoff hero, who suddenly isn't scoring in the playoffs the next year (Pisani) or the former playoff goat who is now performing (Fleury). 

 

small samples mean nothing towards projecting what those players will do in future and are nowhere close to as good an indicator as the big sample of the regular season where Pacioretty blows Craig Smith out of the water. 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

Fowler is a pipe dream. 

 

he was rumoured to be available two years ago, sure. 

 

But since that time he has emerged as the Ducks best defenceman and the team has traded Shea Theodore and Sami Vatanen. 

You can see the impact he had as he did not play a playoff game, and the Ducks got run over. 

 

I think its highly unlikely that they move him. 

Pipe dream, I'll assume it.

 

... just making the argument 

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