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Markov is a Champion. Is Subban next?

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3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

It's a long story, but one of the things that happened was that he had no replacement for Pleks, who got old, nor for Markov, whose departure was foolishly forced but would have happened eventually. Broadly speaking, Gainey's core was good but needed extra elements. MB failed to provide those - notwithstanding the Radulov gambit, which worked for one year - and entropy took over. It's also true that the team has basically sucked since it traded Subban, apart from Weber's aberrant six-week explosion when he first artived. The fact is that the longer Bergevin has been in charge, the worse the team has gotten. 

This is where the opinion loses all its merit. The team sucked in Subban’s final year with us and then improved last year. 

 

While the argument you may be trying to make is that the trade you speak of did nothing to improve our squad, it also makes it look like we were a good team the final year we had Subban. Which we weren’t. That season had me watch less games than this year by the end of it. 

 

I think the Habs have had good teams and bad teams under Bergevin and while Subban was great to have, him vs Weber has very little to do with why the squad finds itself where it is. We were 6th in the division in Subban’s final year with us and we were 6th in the division this year. We were also 1st in the division prior to both those seasons.

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The team has been a gong show since 2016. That's three years running. And yes, once Weber settled down after his spectacular initial six weeks, the team was basically a .500 club.

 

2016-17 First 41 Games: 25-10-6, 124 GF, 96 GA

 

2016-17 Last 41 Games: 22-16-3, 99 GF, 102 GA

 

On December 1st, they were 16-5-2 after 23 games. As you can clearly see, Price was excellent all season long but they scored 25 less goals. The forwards collapsed due to Galchenyuk's injury and returning early, which lost the confidence of Julien and put Danault from a 3C role he was playing fine in to a 1C role he was just coattail riding in. Instead of trying to add a forward to the top six, Bergevin decided the team needed a dozen grinders. Bergevin's response to that season? Sign Alzner, Hemsky, and Streit while letting Markov and Radulov walk.

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5 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Other than Petry, and the short-lived Vanek phase, that is a list of tangential players, bottom-end guys, or place-holders (Gilbert). He also added Galy, a no-brainer pick which he was gifted. But ultimatey this list just reinforces the idea that the core was indeed assembled by his predecessors.

 

Heck, I remember people on this site complaining in 2015 that Bergevin had failed to 'put his stamp' on the team. The more he did so, the worse it got.

He was brought in to clean up after Gauthier and to grow the organization through drafts 

 

He departed from that to get Petry and Shaw. Last season was just desastrous 

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5 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

This is where the opinion loses all its merit. The team sucked in Subban’s final year with us and then improved last year. 

 

While the argument you may be trying to make is that the trade you speak of did nothing to improve our squad, it also makes it look like we were a good team the final year we had Subban. Which we weren’t. That season had me watch less games than this year by the end of it. 

 

I think the Habs have had good teams and bad teams under Bergevin and while Subban was great to have, him vs Weber has very little to do with why the squad finds itself where it is. We were 6th in the division in Subban’s final year with us and we were 6th in the division this year. We were also 1st in the division prior to both those seasons.

 

You can't really compare the Habs with Price to the Habs with the worst goaltenders in the NHL. As I've said many times, the more appropriate comparison is therefore between 2015 and 2017. Therefore, yes, the trade did f*ck all to improve our squad.

 

4 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

2016-17 First 41 Games: 25-10-6, 124 GF, 96 GA

 

2016-17 Last 41 Games: 22-16-3, 99 GF, 102 GA

 

 

Y'know, my math is terrible. But I believe the latter half, extrapolated across a full season, put us on pace for 93 points - i.e., out of the playoffs. So, OK, yes, better than .500. But a bubble team at best. It therefore seems to remain accurate, then, to say that since combining Carey Price and Weber the Habs have indeed stunk, except for that initial spectacular six-week explosion by #6. Of course you can't just discount that initial explosion, but when a core player is scoring way off the chart of his career patterns, you'd also be crazy to take that as the default setting. Once Weber reverted to norms in December, the Habs basically became a bubble team or worse. Where they have remained.

 

I had a feeling the Subban remark would draw too much attention. My point was not to blame Weber per se. What the nearly unremitting mediocrity of the Weber era illustrates is not that Weber sucks, but the folly of a GM who has generally failed to identify or address the team's actual weaknesses (as indeed was the point of Machine's post). In fact he has twiddled his thumbs as new weaknesses opened up, without solving the old ones.

 

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3 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I had a feeling the Subban remark would draw too much attention. My point was not to blame Weber per se. What the nearly unremitting mediocrity of the Weber era illustrates is not that Weber sucks, but the folly of a GM who has generally failed to identify or address the team's actual weaknesses (as indeed was the point of Machine's post).

 

It's never to blame Weber. Weber is fine. It ain't Weber's fault he's not better than Subban, just like it wasn't Savard's fault he wasn't better than Chelios. It's Bergevin's fault for deciding to build the D around a guy not known for puck possession in the puck possession generation, and not getting him a quality defence partner to alleviate the pressure, and letting Markov walk when he could have helped assist Weber in the workload in the locker.

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

You can't really compare the Habs with Price to the Habs with the worst goaltenders in the NHL. As I've said many times, the more appropriate comparison is therefore between 2015 and 2017. Therefore, yes, the trade did f*ck all to improve our squad.

 

You can compare 2015 with 2017 and in the meantime I’ll compare 2016 and 2018. The 2016 team with Subban stunk with the worst goaltending in the NHL and meanwhile Carey Price this year had some of the worst goaltending in the entire NHL. In 2016 he had 10 wins and this year he only had 16 wins. The key issue in both our seasons was Carey Price. In one season he was injured and in the other season he played no better than Ben Scrivens himself. We all know we had a terrible team on paper this season, but it would have been terrible with Subban in place of Weber as well. Furthermore, Carey Price’s own performance was not entirely due to the team in front of him. On many nights this season he looked like he was one of the worst players on the ice. It’s not letting our team off the hook but Carey Price had a .900 save percentage this year. Ben Scrivens has a .906 with us.

 

It’s fair to say trading Subban for Weber did nothing to improve the team but there have been trades and players who have been let go for free which have been more costly to the team and have actually made us substantially worse, so I don’t see the reason to harp on a lateral move.

 

Losing Radulov for free is worse. Even trading Sergachev for Drouin hurts simply because we did it before Sergachev ever had a shot with us. Markov was old but we also lost him for nothing in return, when we had available cap space. Trading Weber for Subban was a move that involved two quality players. Saying we were a bubble team during the second half of the season demonstrates Weber’s importance to the team and is finding a way to make the move look bad.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

You can compare 2015 with 2017 and in the meantime I’ll compare 2016 and 2018. The 2016 team with Subban stunk with the worst goaltending in the NHL and meanwhile Carey Price this year had some of the worst goaltending in the entire NHL. 

 

Subban had a bad start but he didn't stink. 5th highest point per game of any defenceman that season and was 5th in points for all D between January 1st and his injury on March 10. Tied on the team for the 2nd highest plus minus at a positive 4, best for all D on the team. Only Letang, Karlsson, Burns, and Leddy were better than him for D scoring that season. Subban didn't stink. He just had trouble scoring goals at the start of the year and now everyone thinks he had a bad season. He was a great player on a bad team.

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

 He was a great player on a bad team.

That ex-hab would say he was a greatest player on team Subban.

 

And that is main reason he was sent packing.

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Bad Attitude, No Character, Game 7 goals.

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6 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Bad Attitude, No Character, Game 7 goals.

Darn clutch he is...:D

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Garbage dive. Cant stand that crap.

 

Leaves schiefle alone for the third goal. On his stomach for another goal.

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11 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

Garbage dive. Cant stand that crap.

 

Leaves schiefle alone for the third goal. On his stomach for another goal.

 

-2, 3 giveaways, 5 more minutes of ice time than anyone else on his team for some reason, 5-1 loss. Had a nice goal though 

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Someone remind me the last time Weber played a Game 7.... 

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11 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Someone remind me the last time Weber played a Game 7.... 

Weak sir, but likely every elimination game at Olympics and $$ Cup would be similar to a game 7, no?

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Subban was a beast all playoffs long ! There is a reason that they had him on the ice almost constantly...

 

Why the hate?

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44 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Subban was a beast all playoffs long ! There is a reason that they had him on the ice almost constantly...

 

Why the hate?

Some people need to try really hard convince themselves that Weber is better for this team than Subban would be.

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46 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Subban was a beast all playoffs long ! There is a reason that they had him on the ice almost constantly...

 

Why the hate?

 

Thats my point.

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1 hour ago, DON said:

Weak sir, but likely every elimination game at Olympics and $$ Cup would be similar to a game 7, no?

 

Is it that weak, when a number of people are looking at one game, where Subban played well and his goalie was shit, to bash him?

 

I guess that went over people's heads though. 

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2 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Thats my point.

That’s your point when you comment about Weber in a negative manner in your most recent post?

 

Markov won his championship and Subban didn’t. Let’s move on from this thread. 

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2 hours ago, illWill said:

 

-2, 3 giveaways, 5 more minutes of ice time than anyone else on his team for some reason, 5-1 loss. Had a nice goal though 

Bro, are you still butt hurt Subban snubbed you at a charity dinner. Let it go bud. He wasn't the only one that didn't want to talk to you 

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6 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

That’s your point when you comment about Weber in a negative manner in your most recent post?

 

Markov won his championship and Subban didn’t. Let’s move on from this thread. 

 

My point is that looking at things through the lens of just one game is silly.... 

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19 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Is it that weak, when a number of people are looking at one game, where Subban played well and his goalie was shit, to bash him?

 

I guess that went over people's heads though. 

Wasn't just that ex-hab's fault they lost that game.

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2 hours ago, illWill said:

 

-2, 3 giveaways, 5 more minutes of ice time than anyone else on his team for some reason, 5-1 loss. Had a nice goal though 

All 4 of the Nashville big 4 D were a -2 last night.  Team didn’t play well and the goalie in particular sucked

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2 hours ago, DON said:

Weak sir, but likely every elimination game at Olympics and $$ Cup would be similar to a game 7, no?

There’s a difference between a stacked all star team - even. In the Olympic and an NHL team

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36 minutes ago, Habopotamus said:

Bro, are you still butt hurt Subban snubbed you at a charity dinner. Let it go bud. He wasn't the only one that didn't want to talk to you 

 

Good one bro! Sick name btw, I wish I thought of a way to combine my favorite hockey team and a semi aquatic mammal, bro. 

 

 

Touchy subject around here, that Subban guy. I guess that's what happens when he is brought up every day since he's been traded almost two years ago. "Let it go" he says to me....

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