Jump to content
HabsWEST

Markov is a Champion. Is Subban next?

Recommended Posts

40 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

Good one bro! Sick name btw, I wish I thought of a way to combine my favorite hockey team and a semi aquatic mammal, bro. 

 

 

Touchy subject around here, that Subban guy. I guess that's what happens when he is brought up every day since he's been traded almost two years ago. "Let it go" he says to me....

:cry_smile:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, illWill said:

 

 

 

Touchy subject around here, that Subban guy. I guess that's what happens when he is brought up every day since he's been traded almost two years ago. "Let it go" he says to me....

That's kind of my point. I miss Subban. I liked him a lot. But this isn't the roy trade. He's not a generationa player worthy of this much lamentation. There are plenty of defensemen comparable to him in impact to a team. Including Weber. This isn't the chelios trade trade. Weber is still playing at an elite level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

That's kind of my point. I miss Subban. I liked him a lot. But this isn't the roy trade. He's not a generationa player worthy of this much lamentation. There are plenty of defensemen comparable to him in impact to a team. Including Weber. This isn't the chelios trade trade. Weber is still playing at an elite level.

 

It's the Chelios trade.

 

People forget how good Savard was. And that Savard was still good on the Habs for the first few years, he just got hurt in 93 and wasn't as great as he was. Chelios was better in Chicago/Detroit than he was in Montreal.

 

Weber isn't as great on the Habs as he was on the Predators. Subban is better on Nashville. It's the Chelios trade.

 

Add the fact it's in the social media generation and a player that people in Montreal really attached to, and that's why it's a dark cloud that's going to follow the organization for a long time. I can honestly say I don't think the Subban/Habs discussion is ever going to die down in the next decade. Best to just accept it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

It's the Chelios trade.

 

People forget how good Savard was. And that Savard was still good on the Habs for the first few years, he just got hurt in 93 and wasn't as great as he was. Chelios was better in Chicago/Detroit than he was in Montreal.

 

Weber isn't as great on the Habs as he was on the Predators. Subban is better on Nashville. It's the Chelios trade.

 

Add the fact it's in the social media generation and a player that people in Montreal really attached to, and that's why it's a dark cloud that's going to follow the organization for a long time. I can honestly say I don't think the Subban/Habs discussion is ever going to die down in the next decade. Best to just accept it.

His point decline was huge by the time he got to montreal. Like half. He had second line production in montreal. Weber is still a number 1 defenseman. I don't believe montreal won the trade. But I also don't believe it's as bad as a lot of people lament. There has to be a reason pk fought with so many people in practice.  There has to be a reason he was not nominated for the king Clancy by his own team. Right or wrong, it looks like it was bergevins only chance to get rid of a potential cancer. A me player. And he took it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Denis Savard scored 70 points in 1991-92

and 50 points in 63 games in 92-93.

 

It was after that he really fell off a cliff. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Denis Savard scored 70 points in 1991-92

and 50 points in 63 games in 92-93.

 

It was after that he really fell off a cliff. 

Those numbers are first line in 2018. Second line in 1991

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man I just don't get why one needs to get gunned down to raise up the other, that aspect has been annoying and incomprehensible to me from the moment this trade took place. 

 

We see it page after page, every time it is brought up, Its take a shot at Weber to play up Subban, take a shot at Subban to play up Weber. It is obvious enough to see these are 2 top pair Dmen we are talking about here, elite players at their position. Subban had a fantastic year, is a Norris finalist, there really isn't a need to harp on him for his "Meh" game 7, there were a handful of bigger issues that caused that demise, than Subban.  Subban might be the better type of Dman to have in this current NHL, but that does not take away from Weber still being an Elite Player who does not deserve to be harped on just to play up Subban. 

 

Believe it or not, it is POSSIBLE to praise Subban for an excellent year, without throwing popshots at Weber to make the point. It is also possible to Praise and appreciate what Weber does, without having to cut down Subban's game.

 

 

 

 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Link67 said:

Man I just don'y get why one needs to get gunned down to raise up the other, that aspect has been annoying and incomprehensible to me from the moment this trade took place. 

 

We see it page after page, every time it is brought up, Its take a shot at Weber to play up Subban, take a shot at Subban to play up Weber. It is obvious enough to see these are 2 top pair Dmen we are talking about here, elite players at their position. Subban had a fantastic year, is a Norris finalist, there really isn't a need to harp on him for his "Meh" game 7, there were a handful of bigger issues that caused that demise, than Subban.  Subban might be the better type of Dman to have in this current NHL, but that does not take away from Weber still being an Elite Player who does not deserve to be harped on just to play up Subban. 

 

Believe it or not, it is POSSIBLE to praise Subban for an excellent year, without throwing popshots at Weber to make the point. It is also possible to Praise and appreciate what Weber does, without having to cut down Subban's game.

 

I find most Subban fans are just defending criticism's of Subban, which in part were what justified acquiring Weber in the first place. 

 

If you never wanted Weber, and you think Subban is better than Weber, of course you are going to be unhappy about having Weber. It's not rocket science. If we had Tavares and traded him for Pavelski, we're not gonna be happy because Pavelski is still a good player. That doesn't mean Pavelski is bad, it just means the team isn't better. And we're cheering for the team.

 

I feel bad for Weber. He didn't choose Montreal. He didn't want to come here. He's having to replace one of the most popular and most talked about players in the hockey world. He didn't ask for this. He has to watch his Predators, the team he was proud of, the city he lived in, the team he was captain, do better without him. That's tough. That's unfair. As good as he is, he will never be good enough in Montreal. That's not his fault. That's Bergevin.

 

The issue is not Weber vs. Subban. The issue is Trading Subban vs. Not Trading Subban. That is true for every discussion whether you think so or not.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if these 2 rounds tell us anything.... pk subban is Nashville’s #1 D and a Norris finalist for good reason. Unfortunately Weber’s season was doomed from the start... maYbe even the moment 2 of his potential partners (Markov and sergachev)we’re gone. 

Hopefully Weber bounces back next season.

Chelios/ Savard trade is  in another category altogether! Chelios dominated in defence for million more seasons and Savard essentially retired. With a cup in Montreal from the bench.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

I find most Subban fans are just defending criticism's of Subban, which in part were what justified acquiring Weber in the first place. 

 

If you never wanted Weber, and you think Subban is better than Weber, of course you are going to be unhappy about having Weber. It's not rocket science. If we had Tavares and traded him for Pavelski, we're not gonna be happy because Pavelski is still a good player. That doesn't mean Pavelski is bad, it just means the team isn't better. And we're cheering for the team.

 

I feel bad for Weber. He didn't choose Montreal. He didn't want to come here. He's having to replace one of the most popular and most talked about players in the hockey world. He didn't ask for this. He has to watch his Predators, the team he was proud of, the city he lived in, the team he was captain, do better without him. That's tough. That's unfair. As good as he is, he will never be good enough in Montreal. That's not his fault. That's Bergevin.

 

The issue is not Weber vs. Subban. The issue is Trading Subban vs. Not Trading Subban. That is true for every discussion whether you think so or not.

I never wanted Weber and my head hurt the moment I heard Subban was traded for Weber. Ever since that moment, I’ve found myself defending the trade because of how blown out of proportion it’s been. 

 

There are trades out there that truly cripple an organization. Those who refer to the trade every so often feel as though this was one of those instances. Even if you think Weber is worse, he’s still a defenseman who puts up 50+ points in a given year and so this move isn’t one that exactly crippled an organization. Certainly not in isolation. 

 

If the Habs or predators do win a cup, I sincerely believe that Subban and Weber would have been mostly interchangeable on either of those cup winning teams. It’s also the rest of the team. Those who lament the trade, were the ones who initially stated that Weber sucked in game 7 against the Sharks in his final year with Nashville and that it was indicative that we now have a worse playoff performer.

 

Someone said it here earlier in very simple terms. Perhaps there was something as simple as a toxic work environment and Bergevin considered this to be the best return he would get. Those who hate the trade then laugh out loud, refer to attitude and character and completely dismiss the possibility that Subban may have made some adjustments after getting a wake up call and being shown the door. 

 

That’s not a slag at Subban. I liked him ever since the World Juniors. 

 

Regardless, I revert to my initial point in that even if we miss Subban, the trade itself has been blown out of proportion. Just a few comments ago, we heard that this trade is on a parallel with Chelios for Savard. Soon after we hear a comparison of Tavares for Pavelski.  There’s an inconsistency in the analysis of the trade. Tavares for Pavelski is not Chelios Savard and neither was Subban for Weber.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The day MB is fired is also the day his actions will start to go to rest a bit.

not completely of course but little by little...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I never wanted Weber and my head hurt the moment I heard Subban was traded for Weber. Ever since that moment, I’ve found myself defending the trade because of how blown out of proportion it’s been. 

 

There are trades out there that truly cripple an organization. Those who refer to the trade every so often feel as though this was one of those instances. Even if you think Weber is worse, he’s still a defenseman who puts up 50+ points in a given year and so this move isn’t one that exactly crippled an organization. Certainly not in isolation. 

 

If the Habs or predators do win a cup, I sincerely believe that Subban and Weber would have been mostly interchangeable on either of those cup winning teams. It’s also the rest of the team. Those who lament the trade, were the ones who initially stated that Weber sucked in game 7 against the Sharks in his final year with Nashville and that it was indicative that we now have a worse playoff performer.

 

Someone said it here earlier in very simple terms. Perhaps there was something as simple as a toxic work environment and Bergevin considered this to be the best return he would get. Those who hate the trade then laugh out loud, refer to attitude and character and completely dismiss the possibility that Subban may have made some adjustments after getting a wake up call and being shown the door. 

 

That’s not a slag at Subban. I liked him ever since the World Juniors. 

 

Regardless, I revert to my initial point in that even if we miss Subban, the trade itself has been blown out of proportion. Just a few comments ago, we heard that this trade is on a parallel with Chelios for Savard. Soon after we hear a comparison of Tavares for Pavelski.  There’s an inconsistency in the analysis of the trade. Tavares for Pavelski is not Chelios Savard and neither was Subban for Weber.  

You don’t think Tavares for Pavelski is as bad as Chelios - Savard??  Tavares is a MUCH better player than Pavelski.  If Garth snow had  ever done  that deal he would actually have gotten fired.

 

with respect to Subban-Weber the issue is the age difference and contract and the fact that you need  dman who can carry the puck. It was an.asinine trade to make.  It was even more asinine to trade Sergechev the following summer when he was supposedly the Subban replacement.

 

as for the he toxic work environment.  I’d say that was caused by the bafoon coach and the idiot GM that were in place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I’ve found myself defending the trade because of how blown out of proportion it’s been. 

 

There are trades out there that truly cripple an organization. Those who refer to the trade every so often feel as though this was one of those instances. Even if you think Weber is worse, he’s still a defenseman who puts up 50+ points in a given year and so this move isn’t one that exactly crippled an organization. Certainly not in isolation. 

 

If the Habs or predators do win a cup, I sincerely believe that Subban and Weber would have been mostly interchangeable on either of those cup winning teams. It’s also the rest of the team. Those who lament the trade, were the ones who initially stated that Weber sucked in game 7 against the Sharks in his final year with Nashville and that it was indicative that we now have a worse playoff performer.

 

Someone said it here earlier in very simple terms. Perhaps there was something as simple as a toxic work environment and Bergevin considered this to be the best return he would get. Those who hate the trade then laugh out loud, refer to attitude and character and completely dismiss the possibility that Subban may have made some adjustments after getting a wake up call and being shown the door. 

 

That’s not a slag at Subban. I liked him ever since the World Juniors. 

 

Regardless, I revert to my initial point in that even if we miss Subban, the trade itself has been blown out of proportion

 

Pretty much my view on it as well. It's as if everyone's opinion of the entire organization changed in the blink of an eye. It's easy to forget that Bergevin basically had the support of the entire fan base until this trade. But when Montreal went out in the first round and the Preds made it to the finals, any lasting support had evaporated. It turned into a "I told you the trade was dumb". Weber is elite, Subban is elite, I don't see the problem. It's not Joe Thornton for Marco Sturm or Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson. 

 

33 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

 

with respect to Subban-Weber the issue is the age difference and contract and the fact that you need  dman who can carry the puck. It was an.asinine trade to make.  It was even more asinine to trade Sergechev the following summer when he was supposedly the Subban replacement.

 

as for the he toxic work environment.  I’d say that was caused by the bafoon coach and the idiot GM that were in place.

 

The age difference is 3 years and 9 months....why people harp on this is beyond me. The contract? What we know is that Subban is the highest paid defenseman in the league, what we don't know is the performance of these two players in the future. Can't just say we are going to have a 40 year old Weber limping around on the ice for us on a huge over payment. He might retire, he might be a Chelios or Chara and play at a high level at that age, he might get traded for quality prospects, we don't know. The only valid argument is having the puck mover instead of the style Weber plays, but mostly not having a replacement in place. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I never wanted Weber and my head hurt the moment I heard Subban was traded for Weber. Ever since that moment, I’ve found myself defending the trade because of how blown out of proportion it’s been. 

 

There are trades out there that truly cripple an organization. Those who refer to the trade every so often feel as though this was one of those instances. Even if you think Weber is worse, he’s still a defenseman who puts up 50+ points in a given year and so this move isn’t one that exactly crippled an organization. Certainly not in isolation. 

 

If the Habs or predators do win a cup, I sincerely believe that Subban and Weber would have been mostly interchangeable on either of those cup winning teams. It’s also the rest of the team. Those who lament the trade, were the ones who initially stated that Weber sucked in game 7 against the Sharks in his final year with Nashville and that it was indicative that we now have a worse playoff performer.

 

Someone said it here earlier in very simple terms. Perhaps there was something as simple as a toxic work environment and Bergevin considered this to be the best return he would get. Those who hate the trade then laugh out loud, refer to attitude and character and completely dismiss the possibility that Subban may have made some adjustments after getting a wake up call and being shown the door. 

 

That’s not a slag at Subban. I liked him ever since the World Juniors. 

 

Regardless, I revert to my initial point in that even if we miss Subban, the trade itself has been blown out of proportion. Just a few comments ago, we heard that this trade is on a parallel with Chelios for Savard. Soon after we hear a comparison of Tavares for Pavelski.  There’s an inconsistency in the analysis of the trade. Tavares for Pavelski is not Chelios Savard and neither was Subban for Weber.  

 

 

- It's not about crippling. I've seen teams make bad trades and still be successful. Boston traded Joe Thornton for pretty much nothing and won a Cup five years later. Boston then traded Seguin in a bad trade and they are fine right now. Washington is in the ECF despite the Erat for Forsberg trade and signing Brooks Orpik to a dumb contract. You can even make good moves and not find success in it, such as Radulov and Bishop to Dallas and when the Islanders acquired Vanek. 

 

- "Perhaps there was a toxic work environment" is BS. I'm sorry. Chicago had LOCKER ROOM FIGHTS the last time they won the Stanley Cup with rumours of players sleeping with each others wives. Raanta got ostracized by the organization for talking about it. The Canadiens players in the 70s didn't like Scotty Bowman one bit and often ignored him or dogged it at practice just to rile him up. The idea that one player was so bad everyone had to get rid of him, regardless of his talent, it's a fabrication. 

 

- When Subban got traded to Nashville, Rinne and Hartnell were worried based on his reputation. Rinne said in Players Tribune that Subban was extremely positive and kept the locker room in good spirits after losses. Basically everything that was said to be Bergevin's problem (players not being angry after a loss) with the locker, was considered a positive in Nashville. So if anything was toxic, it was Bergevin's viewpoint.

 

- Here's what you miss. Montreal had an aging LD puck mover (Markov), a failing LD puck mover (Beaulieu), an overpaid LD defensive D-Man (Emelin), a franchise RD puck mover, (Subban) and second pair RD puck mover (Petry). The team needed to find a new LD puck mover and get rid of the overpaid defensive LD. They got rid of the failing guy, but then traded the franchise RD puck mover for a more defensive minded, former franchise RD PP Specialist (Weber), which meant the organization now lacked two puck movers. Then they let the aging LD puck mover walk and let the overpaid guy get picked up, but replaced them with an overrated trash fire (Benn) and an overpaid broken LD (Alzner). They signed another aging LD puck mover thinking he could do the job (Streit) and he didn't even make it to the season. So now the organization lacked puck movement and puck possession. This isn't Weber's fault, but Weber isn't the kind of player Subban is. He doesn't move the puck like he does. Meaning even though Weber does other things well, the organization is now in need for that. And instead of filling that need, Bergevin went the other way. And that's why the D is now one of the worst in the league. So Weber didn't cripple the team, but it pushed the team philosophy in the wrong direction. It was a domino. The organization needed to add a Fowler type and didn't. Now it's praying the young D develop right and fill in spots while several spots are filled by trashfires. Weber isn't responsible for any of it but if they didn't trade Subban, the organization wouldn't be in such a desperation for puck movers and playing guys like Mete in a 1LD role as a freaking rookie.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Machine of Loving Grace, that is ans clear an analysis as I've read. I was happy with PK and I was incredulous of what MB said when he made the trade: that it was to make us a cup contender .

He brought Shaw at the same time, which compounds the problem.

 

The thing for me is that I want to cheer for a team, and the CH is my team. Firing MB now won't fix any of the mistakes made. The only path I see is a redemptive miracle from MB/TT this summer and better overall performance from the roster.

 

You are right in all you wrote. Let's move forward with what can be salvaged from our beloved team

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

 

- It's not about crippling. I've seen teams make bad trades and still be successful. Boston traded Joe Thornton for pretty much nothing and won a Cup five years later. Boston then traded Seguin in a bad trade and they are fine right now. Washington is in the ECF despite the Erat for Forsberg trade and signing Brooks Orpik to a dumb contract. You can even make good moves and not find success in it, such as Radulov and Bishop to Dallas and when the Islanders acquired Vanek. 

 

- "Perhaps there was a toxic work environment" is BS. I'm sorry. Chicago had LOCKER ROOM FIGHTS the last time they won the Stanley Cup with rumours of players sleeping with each others wives. Raanta got ostracized by the organization for talking about it. The Canadiens players in the 70s didn't like Scotty Bowman one bit and often ignored him or dogged it at practice just to rile him up. The idea that one player was so bad everyone had to get rid of him, regardless of his talent, it's a fabrication. 

 

- When Subban got traded to Nashville, Rinne and Hartnell were worried based on his reputation. Rinne said in Players Tribune that Subban was extremely positive and kept the locker room in good spirits after losses. Basically everything that was said to be Bergevin's problem (players not being angry after a loss) with the locker, was considered a positive in Nashville. So if anything was toxic, it was Bergevin's viewpoint.

 

- Here's what you miss. Montreal had an aging LD puck mover (Markov), a failing LD puck mover (Beaulieu), an overpaid LD defensive D-Man (Emelin), a franchise RD puck mover, (Subban) and second pair RD puck mover (Petry). The team needed to find a new LD puck mover and get rid of the overpaid defensive LD. They got rid of the failing guy, but then traded the franchise RD puck mover for a more defensive minded, former franchise RD PP Specialist (Weber), which meant the organization now lacked two puck movers. Then they let the aging LD puck mover walk and let the overpaid guy get picked up, but replaced them with an overrated trash fire (Benn) and an overpaid broken LD (Alzner). They signed another aging LD puck mover thinking he could do the job (Streit) and he didn't even make it to the season. So now the organization lacked puck movement and puck possession. This isn't Weber's fault, but Weber isn't the kind of player Subban is. He doesn't move the puck like he does. Meaning even though Weber does other things well, the organization is now in need for that. And instead of filling that need, Bergevin went the other way. And that's why the D is now one of the worst in the league. So Weber didn't cripple the team, but it pushed the team philosophy in the wrong direction. It was a domino. The organization needed to add a Fowler type and didn't. Now it's praying the young D develop right and fill in spots while several spots are filled by trashfires. Weber isn't responsible for any of it but if they didn't trade Subban, the organization wouldn't be in such a desperation for puck movers and playing guys like Mete in a 1LD role as a freaking rookie.

 

Outstanding post :thumbs_up:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see Markov only had 3pts in KHL playoffs, which is normal I suppose, just never noticed his offense tailed off that much in post season before.

0.58points/game reg season

0.36points/game playoffs

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

 

- It's not about crippling. I've seen teams make bad trades and still be successful. Boston traded Joe Thornton for pretty much nothing and won a Cup five years later. Boston then traded Seguin in a bad trade and they are fine right now. Washington is in the ECF despite the Erat for Forsberg trade and signing Brooks Orpik to a dumb contract. You can even make good moves and not find success in it, such as Radulov and Bishop to Dallas and when the Islanders acquired Vanek. 

 

- "Perhaps there was a toxic work environment" is BS. I'm sorry. Chicago had LOCKER ROOM FIGHTS the last time they won the Stanley Cup with rumours of players sleeping with each others wives. Raanta got ostracized by the organization for talking about it. The Canadiens players in the 70s didn't like Scotty Bowman one bit and often ignored him or dogged it at practice just to rile him up. The idea that one player was so bad everyone had to get rid of him, regardless of his talent, it's a fabrication. 

 

- When Subban got traded to Nashville, Rinne and Hartnell were worried based on his reputation. Rinne said in Players Tribune that Subban was extremely positive and kept the locker room in good spirits after losses. Basically everything that was said to be Bergevin's problem (players not being angry after a loss) with the locker, was considered a positive in Nashville. So if anything was toxic, it was Bergevin's viewpoint.

 

- Here's what you miss. Montreal had an aging LD puck mover (Markov), a failing LD puck mover (Beaulieu), an overpaid LD defensive D-Man (Emelin), a franchise RD puck mover, (Subban) and second pair RD puck mover (Petry). The team needed to find a new LD puck mover and get rid of the overpaid defensive LD. They got rid of the failing guy, but then traded the franchise RD puck mover for a more defensive minded, former franchise RD PP Specialist (Weber), which meant the organization now lacked two puck movers. Then they let the aging LD puck mover walk and let the overpaid guy get picked up, but replaced them with an overrated trash fire (Benn) and an overpaid broken LD (Alzner). They signed another aging LD puck mover thinking he could do the job (Streit) and he didn't even make it to the season. So now the organization lacked puck movement and puck possession. This isn't Weber's fault, but Weber isn't the kind of player Subban is. He doesn't move the puck like he does. Meaning even though Weber does other things well, the organization is now in need for that. And instead of filling that need, Bergevin went the other way. And that's why the D is now one of the worst in the league. So Weber didn't cripple the team, but it pushed the team philosophy in the wrong direction. It was a domino. The organization needed to add a Fowler type and didn't. Now it's praying the young D develop right and fill in spots while several spots are filled by trashfires. Weber isn't responsible for any of it but if they didn't trade Subban, the organization wouldn't be in such a desperation for puck movers and playing guys like Mete in a 1LD role as a freaking rookie.

 

 

I can get behind this analysis, the trade in its current state didn't seem necessary when you consider the PMD is the way to go in today's NHL. However this could have easily been properly constructed with a proper plan and vision. If you are in the Front Office, and it just grinds your gears to see your #1D flying up the ice sometimes and going rogue and costs your team a goal, you might be tempted to make a move away from that type of player, I get it. His coaches want him to cool it, some of his team mates want him to cool it, but he tunes it all out and keeps doing his thing. Some people can embrace it, others are driven mad by it, I am sure we have all had multiple times where we just wanted to smack PK for doing something stupidly risky and having it burn us. Point is, I can understand the thought behind moving away from a dominant but high risk player for a dominant steadier player, once you establish that, you still have work to do as far as figuring out what hockey strengths you gain and lose from such a trade. 

 

In this case, Subban was almost unmatched in the Puck Moving department, Weber is almost unmatched in the Shutdown department, A trade for us would have also had to involve a larger plan to compliment the stylistic change we just made. Trading Subban for Weber had to also come with another move later to bring back some Puck Moving to compliment the newly acquired big boost in our Shutdown capabilities from the back end. It essentially was ok last year while Markov was filling the role beside him, but it faltered greatly this year with the loss of that and again adding more Shutdown guys like Alzner. This D has enough Shutdown with Weber alone, he is elite at it, it is why he plays huge minutes, for any team including Team Canada. We are, in hockey terms, chemically imbalanced, too much shutdown not enough puck moving, our group of D is improperly built around Weber. Weber brings extreme stability and decision making, he brings the ability to smother and shutdown top players at an elite level, call it a day on all those things and acquire at least 1, preferably 2, solid PMD who still fit your philosophy of not being high risk players, but their main strength is Puck Moving, and you have yourself a well thought out plan, and a properly setup D-Core. 

 

Unfortunately we are out to lunch on everything that followed the trade, which could have gave us a chance to properly move forward. It actually would have shown this management group was competent in realizing, High Risk players were not something they wanted on their roster, and were wise enough to make a real change in that department while making sure not to compromise the balance and overall ability of the D-Core in its entirety with a couple smaller trades after the big one. The plan ending at, we are trading Subban for Weber was wrong, it should have been clear, we are trading Risk for Stability, and we are going to acquire some puck movement afterwards to re-balance the D based on the abilities of the player leaving and the one coming in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I won't make this page just a bunch of quoted blocks but:

 

- Stats prove that Subban is better at shutting teams down than Weber, especially one on one.

- Weber is a relatively safe player, but he also has a tendency to make passes to players when they are not ready, which means that player gets pinned or loses the puck, and is treated as the one with the turnover instead of him. I've seen him do it every other game he plays. And most of the passes don't even get the player out of our zone.

- Alzner shuts down nothing. He's a zero dimensional player. Him and Benn are on-ice liabilities.

- I am of the opinion that the team needs more high impact, high risk players, not less. We have Carey Price. Hart and Vezina trophy winner. We shouldn't be so worried about shutting teams down. We should be barnstorming clubs with high impact offence and leaving caution to the wind because we have the best goalie in the world backstopping for us. This defensive mindset has poisoned the club into forgetting what made the best teams in history so good. They could play defence, yes, but they had top flight offence and a goalie that cleaned up their mistakes. If Price isn't reliable enough for that, we need to move on.

- Again, Subban is a more reliable defender than Weber. He just makes a few blatant errors from time to time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, DON said:

I see Markov only had 3pts in KHL playoffs, which is normal I suppose, just never noticed his offense tailed off that much in post season before.

0.58points/game reg season

0.36points/game playoffs

 

He tailed off in general pretty quickly.  Of his 33 regular season points, 10 came within the first month of the year and he was fairly quiet after that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One can make all the comments they want about how trading Subban created a void but at that point in time our power play was void of goals as well, which as was noted is something Weber generally excels at. Scoring goals on the power play. 

 

I see too dominant an opinion being created about Subban in the argument. Not only is Subban a better puck mover, he’s now also better at everything that Weber does well as well. If that’s the way some people think, then obviously their thoughts will never change, but it’s not entirely true. 

 

I’m personally more annoyed with the Sergachev for Drouin trade because of similar reasons that some people are upset with the Weber trade. I try to avoid even bringing it up though because obviously Drouin was a talented player to receive back. Just like Weber was. 

 

Sergachev for Drouin would have been solid if Drouin actually was a center. But it was a move that created a void at LD and didn’t address any other need. 

 

In the case of Weber and Subban, they are both legitimate 1st pairing right handed defensemen. One can talk about a void in stylistic play between the two but it certainly didn’t create a void in the strengths of our lineup by position. 

 

When anyone creates a post on here about team needs, we hear about needing centers as well as a top pairing LD. We never hear that the team is in desperate for a top pairing RD. Yet all hell breaks loose when people watch Subban on the TV. 

 

”It’s not Weber’s fault. He never asked to be a Hab”.

 

Exactly. It’s not Weber’s fault that the team is in the situation it finds itself. It’s the players surrounding him. Subban wouldn’t have helped this year’s version of the Habs succeed. Weber needs a better team. 

 

The argument has revolved completely around how the new age NHL revolves around speed and puck moving defensemen and yet it’s not the only factor in assessing the trade and it’s not necessarily the only formula for success.

 

Some of the defensive cores that are left don’t have the greatest puck moving defenseman as a whole (Tampa’s is great). On the other hand, Nashville has one of the better D cores at moving the puck in the league and although it was a fine line between them lifting the cup and being eliminated this year, their offense got smothered in some games this post season despite having that great puck moving D.

 

 

 

  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

”It’s not Weber’s fault. He never asked to be a Hab”.

 

Exactly. It’s not Weber’s fault that the team is in the situation it finds itself. It’s the players surrounding him. Subban wouldn’t have helped this year’s version of the Habs succeed. Weber needs a better team. 

 

Finally we come to an agreement: trade Weber to a better team. Chase 31st in the standings. Rebuild for the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

One can make all the comments they want about how trading Subban created a void but at that point in time our power play was void of goals as well, which as was noted is something Weber generally excels at. Scoring goals on the power play. 

 

I see too dominant an opinion being created about Subban in the argument. Not only is Subban a better puck mover, he’s now also better at everything that Weber does well as well. If that’s the way some people think, then obviously their thoughts will never change, but it’s not entirely true. 

 

I’m personally more annoyed with the Sergachev for Drouin trade because of similar reasons that some people are upset with the Weber trade. I try to avoid even bringing it up though because obviously Drouin was a talented player to receive back. Just like Weber was. 

 

Sergachev for Drouin would have been solid if Drouin actually was a center. But it was a move that created a void at LD and didn’t address any other need. 

 

In the case of Weber and Subban, they are both legitimate 1st pairing right handed defensemen. One can talk about a void in stylistic play between the two but it certainly didn’t create a void in the strengths of our lineup by position. 

 

When anyone creates a post on here about team needs, we hear about needing centers as well as a top pairing LD. We never hear that the team is in desperate for a top pairing RD. Yet all hell breaks loose when people watch Subban on the TV. 

 

”It’s not Weber’s fault. He never asked to be a Hab”.

 

Exactly. It’s not Weber’s fault that the team is in the situation it finds itself. It’s the players surrounding him. Subban wouldn’t have helped this year’s version of the Habs succeed. Weber needs a better team. 

 

The argument has revolved completely around how the new age NHL revolves around speed and puck moving defensemen and yet it’s not the only factor in assessing the trade and it’s not necessarily the only formula for success.

 

Some of the defensive cores that are left don’t have the greatest puck moving defenseman as a whole (Tampa’s is great). On the other hand, Nashville has one of the better D cores at moving the puck in the league and although it was a fine line between them lifting the cup and being eliminated this year, their offense got smothered in some games this post season despite having that great puck moving D.

 

 

 

 

Everyone here agrees that Weber is an outstanding Dman. Our dissatisfaction with the trade has very little to do with the player that we got back.

 

Our problem is:

 

-Subban is better suited for today's NHL

-Subban is elite in the area that our team is lacking

-Subban was traded for political/ego reasons

-Subban's trade shone a bright light on MB failure as a GM to understand the needs of the team and where the NHL is going

-Subban can change the entire momentum of a game in one play

-Subban is an elite, generational player built for today's NHL with outstanding skills in every area of the ice.

 

The trade was poor and the Sergachev trade was extra salt in the "our GM is an idiot" wound.

 

Fire MB now please

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

 

Everyone here agrees that Weber is an outstanding Dman. Our dissatisfaction with the trade has very little to do with the player that we got back.

 

Our problem is:

 

-Subban is better suited for today's NHL

-Subban is elite in the area that our team is lacking

-Subban was traded for political/ego reasons

-Subban's trade shone a bright light on MB failure as a GM to understand the needs of the team and where the NHL is going

-Subban can change the entire momentum of a game in one play

-Subban is an elite, generational player built for today's NHL with outstanding skills in every area of the ice.

 

The trade was poor and the Sergachev trade was extra salt in the "our GM is an idiot" wound.

 

Fire MB now please

Molson gives the o.k on these trades too...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Habopotamus said:

Molson gives the o.k on these trades too...

 

Molson is an idiot as well.

 

Evidenced by this trade and the fact that he continues to allow a very poor GM to destroy this franchise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×