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Markov is a Champion. Is Subban next?

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There needs to be a middle man between Beregvin and Molson. This off-season would be a perfect opportunity to bring someone in, but Molson seems to think he knows hockey.  

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2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

 

Everyone here agrees that Weber is an outstanding Dman. Our dissatisfaction with the trade has very little to do with the player that we got back.

 

Our problem is:

 

-Subban is better suited for today's NHL

-Subban is elite in the area that our team is lacking

-Subban was traded for political/ego reasons

-Subban's trade shone a bright light on MB failure as a GM to understand the needs of the team and where the NHL is going

-Subban can change the entire momentum of a game in one play

-Subban is an elite, generational player built for today's NHL with outstanding skills in every area of the ice.

 

The trade was poor and the Sergachev trade was extra salt in the "our GM is an idiot" wound.

 

Fire MB now please

 

- This first point is blah. Nate Schmidt is better suited than Dustin Byfuglien for today’s NHL. I’d still rather have Dustin Byfuglien on my top pair.

- Weber is elite in areas that our team would lack without him. 

- Perhaps he was. This can be twisted as a justification for the move or an outrage against the move depending on one’s position. 

- Signing Semin and Kassian shined a bright light on Bergevin’s lack of view and yet people home in on this. People always talk about puck moving defensemen but it’s on our left hand side that we really need one. At the time of the trade, we had Markov and Beaulieu. Not replacing either of them (though beaulieu turned out to suck) and then trading Sergachev is a bigger issue than having traded Subban. The Habs did well last year

- Weber can change the momentum of the game in one play. 

- It was already mentioned that Subban is “built for today’s NHL” and here’s the same argument again. Weber can play in the NHL today, trust me. 

 

Finally, let’s not forget that Subban truly has no apparent issues of his own on the ice according to some people. Absolutely none, whatsoever. 

 

Vegas has Brayden McNabb as their top pairing right defense.

 

Tampa Bay has Dan Girardi as their top pairing right defense.

 

Winnipeg has Josh Morrisey on their top pair. 

 

Washington has Michael Kempny on their top pair.

 

... and we’re complaining about having Weber?

 

”This trade was never about Weber”

”We’re not complaining about Weber”

 

People sure are, when the most common angst against the trade is that Subban is an elite puck mover. That’s an indirect critism of an apparent weakness in Weber’s game.

 

People can continue to hate the trade, but it’s not the issue with our team, nor is it even at the core of the issue. Weber wasn’t even here for most of this season, so it’s easy pickings right now. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

 

- This first point is blah. Nate Schmidt is better suited than Dustin Byfuglien for today’s NHL. I’d still rather have Dustin Byfuglien on my top pair.

- Weber is elite in areas that our team would lack without him. 

- Perhaps he was. This can be twisted as a justification for the move or an outrage against the move depending on one’s position. 

- Signing Semin and Kassian shined a bright light on Bergevin’s lack of view. People always talk about puck moving defensemen but it’s on our left hand side that we really need one. At the time of the trade, we had Markov and Beaulieu. Not replacing either of them (though beaulieu turned out to suck) and then trading Sergachev is a bigger issue than having traded Subban.

- Weber can change the momentum of the game in one play. 

- It was already mentioned that Subban is “built for today’s NHL” and here’s the same argument again. Weber can play in the NHL today, trust me. 

 

Finally, let’s not forget that Subban truly has no apparent issues of his own on the ice according to some people. Absolutely none, whatsoever. 

 

Vegas has Brayden McNabb as their top pairing right defense.

 

Tampa Bay has Dan Girardi as their top pairing right defense.

 

Winnipeg has Josh Morrisey on their top pair. 

 

Washington has Michael Kempny on their top pair.

 

... and we’re complaining about having Weber?

 

”This trade was never about Weber”

”We’re not complaining about Weber”

 

People sure are, when the most common angst against the trade is that Subban is an elite puck mover. That’s an indirect critism of an apparent weakness in Weber’s game.

 

People can continue to hate the trade, but it’s not the issue with our team, nor is it even at the core of the issue. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mobile puck moving Dmen is the entire argument here though. We had one with Subban and traded him then we had one with Sergachev and traded him too. We do not have an adequate ability to move the puck up ice from our back end and that is as big an issue as the lack of centres is.

 

Weber is outstanding at many things and I for one thought that he had an incredible playoff for us the last time we were there. He does not however move the puck up the ice at the same level as Subban.

 

The teams you listed with their defense would all love to have Subban on their team.

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27 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

 

Mobile puck moving Dmen is the entire argument here though. We had one with Subban and traded him then we had one with Sergachev and traded him too. We do not have an adequate ability to move the puck up ice from our back end and that is as big an issue as the lack of centres is.

 

Weber is outstanding at many things and I for one thought that he had an incredible playoff for us the last time we were there. He does not however move the puck up the ice at the same level as Subban.

 

The teams you listed with their defense would all love to have Subban on their team.

It’s fine. I’ve said enough to annoy without intending to do so, so I’m ready to personally move on from the topic. I hope. 

 

But when I see comments like the end of your post, the same can be once again said for Weber. Any of those teams would love to have Weber.

 

My point is that as Habs fans, while I cannot force a viewpoint on anyone, we should be wreaking havoc at our lack of puck moving left handed defensemen, not right handed. People hate Petry but he’s also a right handed defenseman. While our team would still need much more, our defense would be more balanced if Petry was simply a left handed shot. Still not a top pair caliber, but definitely more balanced. 

 

Moving forward our team needs to find a puck mover, especially one that has a left handed shot. That’s a void caused by the loss of Markov, quite simply. After all, as the thread states, Markov is now a champion. :P

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36 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

- The Habs did well last year

 

You mean Price did well in 16-17.

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23 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

You mean Price did well in 16-17.

The only difference between us is that I want the Habs to do well in the short term as well as the long term whereas you envision no plan available to be able to do well in the short term, but only the long term. Even though long term goals are always going to be more foggy than short term ones. 

 

When the Habs do well, it’s all on Price. When Price sucks in a given year, which literally happened this year, it’s because of everything outside of him. 

 

When Nashville does well, it’s because they should. When they lose in the second round after reaching the conference final in their prior season, it’s supposedly despite having gotten better. 

 

That credit would never be given to the Habs after a worse performance.

 

I can’t help but see bias in some people’s perspective and it leads me to argue. I have strong opinions as well but I don’t see them as biased or “subliminal racism” because I loved Subban in the World Juniors as well as while he was a member of the team. I will admit that I didn’t think highly of Subban in his final year with us but that didn’t dampen my overall perspective of him. I do maintain that in a healthy year, the difference between Weber and Subban is marginal and I look forward to seeing what the future holds in that respect. 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Habopotamus said:

There needs to be a middle man between Beregvin and Molson. This off-season would be a perfect opportunity to bring someone in, but Molson seems to think he knows hockey.  

 

There is no point in a middle man.

 

If you need someone to oversee Bergevin then you are admitting you dont trust Bergevin.  Might as well just fire him.

 

Tge Avs did this.  Sherman was GM and they hired sakic and Roy as president and VP.  Sherman is still their GM but there is no point to him being there.  He is totally neutered and sakic is making the decisions after winning the power struggle with Roy.

 

No need to bring in someone above MB to neuter him.  If Molson makes the decision that MB shouldnt be in charge of the hockey dept... thats great... fire him.

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3 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

 

- This first point is blah. Nate Schmidt is better suited than Dustin Byfuglien for today’s NHL. I’d still rather have Dustin Byfuglien on my top pair.

- Weber is elite in areas that our team would lack without him. 

- Perhaps he was. This can be twisted as a justification for the move or an outrage against the move depending on one’s position. 

- Signing Semin and Kassian shined a bright light on Bergevin’s lack of view and yet people home in on this. People always talk about puck moving defensemen but it’s on our left hand side that we really need one. At the time of the trade, we had Markov and Beaulieu. Not replacing either of them (though beaulieu turned out to suck) and then trading Sergachev is a bigger issue than having traded Subban. The Habs did well last year

- Weber can change the momentum of the game in one play. 

- It was already mentioned that Subban is “built for today’s NHL” and here’s the same argument again. Weber can play in the NHL today, trust me. 

 

Finally, let’s not forget that Subban truly has no apparent issues of his own on the ice according to some people. Absolutely none, whatsoever. 

 

Vegas has Brayden McNabb as their top pairing right defense.

 

Tampa Bay has Dan Girardi as their top pairing right defense.

 

Winnipeg has Josh Morrisey on their top pair. 

 

Washington has Michael Kempny on their top pair.

 

... and we’re complaining about having Weber?

 

”This trade was never about Weber”

”We’re not complaining about Weber”

 

People sure are, when the most common angst against the trade is that Subban is an elite puck mover. That’s an indirect critism of an apparent weakness in Weber’s game.

 

People can continue to hate the trade, but it’s not the issue with our team, nor is it even at the core of the issue. Weber wasn’t even here for most of this season, so it’s easy pickings right now. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, you fail to mention the guy girardi is playing with - I’ll take him over Weber or Subban.  The fact that a weber-girardi type pairing would never be as successful and the fact that for half the year Subban was being paired with Emelin and is a Norris candidate, highlights the need for your top dman to be a friggin puck mover.

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If I were to beg the question of what exactly a puck moving defenseman is and how it is represented in the difference in skill level of Weber and Subban I would get a myriad of answers. 

 

Someone would say it’s someone who can make a nice first outlet pass outside of the zone. Another would chime in that it’s a defenseman who can skate the puck out of their blue line into the other team’s zone. Another would state that it’s something that is demonstrated by corsi; your team has more possession and shots when the given player is on the ice. Another would disagree and state that it’s really only something you can distinguish with your own eyes. 

 

The first one is something both Weber and Subban are capable of. The second one is something Subban rarely does anyway, despite people thinking he does. Of course Weber does not either. The only problem with corsi is that one can be tied down with a worse player or be brought up by another player. Weber has also had his rough share of partners while on the Habs. Subban has as well, this isn’t a competition between the two. But he has also had phases with very solid defensive partners as well as forward units. Finally, the eye test can have confirmation bias. People see what they want to see, or they only watch at the wrong times.

 

What I see here is people clamoring for what they perceive we don’t have, and it leads to irrationality. First of all, Weber isn’t as terrible a puck mover as people say. Second of all, we need a left handed defenseman to be the brilliant puck mover. If Weber is indeed worse at moving the puck, we need to find someone to compliment him rather than complain that he isn’t one or even that we don’t have one. There are weaknesses in Subban’s game as well and one can be damn sure that Ekholm does things better than Subban as well as differently, and they compliment each other. Give Subban Nate Schmidt as a partner and id be quite interested in how things turn out. These Ekholms and Emelins have a contrast in style with Subban.

 

As for Girardi and Weber as a top pair, it’s first of all impossible since they are both right defense. That’s the point, we need a left handed defenseman on our team. Second of all, last year we had Weber and Emelin on the top pair at times and while I hated it, it didn’t seem to hurt us in the standings. Again, the issue there was Emelin on the top pair. Not our top pair right handed defenseman. 

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3 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

The only difference between us is that I want the Habs to do well in the short term as well as the long term whereas you envision no plan available to be able to do well in the short term, but only the long term. Even though long term goals are always going to be more foggy than short term ones. 

 

When the Habs do well, it’s all on Price. When Price sucks in a given year, which literally happened this year, it’s because of everything outside of him. 

 

When Nashville does well, it’s because they should. When they lose in the second round after reaching the conference final in their prior season, it’s supposedly despite having gotten better. 

 

That credit would never be given to the Habs after a worse performance.

 

The difference between us is you are ready and willing to accept mediocrity for what is supposed to be the greatest franchise in hockey. 

 

There is such thing as having a successful regular season but not being ready to compete for the Cup. In fact, that was the Montreal Canadiens in 07-08. And everyone knew it. We hoped they were wrong, but everyone was right. I was in support of Bergevin until the summer of 2015. We were one of the best regular season teams and we lost to a better team in the second round. That's fine. It's what you do in the summer that counts. Bergevin did NOTHING. That is when I turned and recognized he didn't have what it takes to manage this club. The Subban trade just meant I wouldn't have something to get me through while watching him muck up the franchise. 

 

If you want to be ignorant of how much Price had an effect on the club record, and on Weber's defensive stats, that's fine. But most hockey analysts knew that both the Canadiens and Rangers were flawed teams only going as far as their goaltenders took them. Lundqvist was one goal better than Price then got beat by Ottawa. All three teams suck now. Curious.

 

I gave credit to the Habs in 14-15 despite losing to the Lightning. They should have done more to add scoring at the deadline but we knew they needed to add offence in the summer to get back on top. They didn't. They added a crippled Semin, a woozy Kassian, and a hanger on Fleischmann. In 2018, you are okay with that. I'm not. And until this organization gets the enema it deserves, I will keep being right about it being a broken machine.

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Girardi might play with Hedman, but that is just cause Hedman protects him.  The best RHD on the Lightning is Anton Stralman, who is a legit top pairing defenceman.

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7 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

 

Molson is an idiot as well.

 

Evidenced by this trade and the fact that he continues to allow a very poor GM to destroy this franchise.

Why is Molson an idiot?

"Destroying the franchise"... Bit overboard don't you think.

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5 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

The difference between us is you are ready and willing to accept mediocrity for what is supposed to be the greatest franchise in hockey. 

 

There is such thing as having a successful regular season but not being ready to compete for the Cup. In fact, that was the Montreal Canadiens in 07-08. And everyone knew it. We hoped they were wrong, but everyone was right. I was in support of Bergevin until the summer of 2015. We were one of the best regular season teams and we lost to a better team in the second round. That's fine. It's what you do in the summer that counts. Bergevin did NOTHING. That is when I turned and recognized he didn't have what it takes to manage this club. The Subban trade just meant I wouldn't have something to get me through while watching him muck up the franchise. 

 

If you want to be ignorant of how much Price had an effect on the club record, and on Weber's defensive stats, that's fine. But most hockey analysts knew that both the Canadiens and Rangers were flawed teams only going as far as their goaltenders took them. Lundqvist was one goal better than Price then got beat by Ottawa. All three teams suck now. Curious.

 

I gave credit to the Habs in 14-15 despite losing to the Lightning. They should have done more to add scoring at the deadline but we knew they needed to add offence in the summer to get back on top. They didn't. They added a crippled Semin, a woozy Kassian, and a hanger on Fleischmann. In 2018, you are okay with that. I'm not. And until this organization gets the enema it deserves, I will keep being right about it being a broken machine.

It's almost comical that I should be accused of accepting mediocrity when you are literally the one who wants the Habs to tank for the next few years, with part of the reason obviously being wanting Bergevin to get fired. That's really strong grounds for producing productive analysis for the betterment of our team.

 

I won't get into the discussion on Price, other than to say I'm happy our team has the problem of having potentially the best goalie in the world. It's a problem people bring up in various ways but as long as he actually remains at his potential high level, that's a good thing. On the other extreme, if people really think he's the only reason our team has a chance at being successful and people truly want to rebuild, Price is the one who should be used for a good return. I don't agree with this stance but it will quiet down those who think our management is actually blinded themselves by the Price factor. 

 

All I've done is indirectly suggest that Weber and the 19 goals he would have scored this year are not a problem and are great to have. In addition to that, I've tried to suggest that we should keep our best players and use the available cap space to surround them by better players. With that simple solution, the habs are automatically a better team next year than they were this year, which doesn't say much, but they will be better on paper and not just in the standings. Trade our best players as I've seen you suggest, and the Habs will certainly be worse for at least another year... But at least Bergevin may get fired. I'm not the one who wants to accept mediocrity. I see it the other way. 

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On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎23 at 6:53 AM, HabsWEST said:

https://awinninghabit.com/2018/04/23/montreal-canadiens-news-congratulations-khl-andrei-markov-2018-gagarin-cup/

 

Andrei Markov with Ak Bars Kazan wins the championship. All reports shows he logged lot of minutes and key to the underdogs winning. He should in an inferior league, but being so old and slow now, he had all of 1g 2a in playoffs.

 

Now how ironic if both these defencemen go on to win their respective championship titles ( PK Subban ) Well that  quite didn't pan out, with that ex-hab being knocked out in 2nd round.

 

But, Lars Eller will get his ring, so may make you a bit happier?

 

 

 

 

........

 

 

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Larry is having a hell of a playoff. 

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4 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

Larry is having a hell of a playoff. 

Nice to see him do well.

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Tampa has Sergachev

 

Winnipeg has no one 

 

Vegas has... Grabovski. Though he hasn’t played a game all year.

 

Washington has Eller and forgotten about but also performing.... Devante Smith Pelly

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19 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Tampa has Sergachev

 

Winnipeg has no one 

 

Vegas has... Grabovski. Though he hasn’t played a game all year.

 

Washington has Eller and forgotten about but also performing.... Devante Smith Pelly

 

Tampa technically also has Peter Budaj and the man who was drafted but never played in Ryan McDonaugh. Gabe Dumont played seven regular season games.

Winnipeg has Joe Morrow, who has played five playoff games.

Vegas has Stefan Matteau, who played eight regular season games. He won't see a playoff game.

Washington also has Jakub Jerabek who has actually played two playoff games.

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I liked Morrow more than others simply because of my expectations of him beforehand. 

 

I haven’t noticed Morrow or Jerabek in a single playoff game though. Although now that I mention it, I remember posting about Morrow after his game winning goal in game 1 of round 1 against Minnesota. The first game of these playoffs. He hasn’t seen the ice since that series.

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1 hour ago, Dalhabs said:

Sooo for us not understanding french...   what did he say?

Copy link to Google translate. Said he thought Julien would be good since he was good coach in boston,  but there was no trust there.  Happy to be traded. Said bergevin should not say anything about the atitude in the room since he is never there.

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Sorry, I should have copy and pasted the text. 

 

Morrow later said somethings were lost in translation. 

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I didnt mean to be rude about the language issue.

Sorry for any missunderstanding.

 

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8 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

Copy link to Google translate. Said he thought Julien would be good since he was good coach in boston,  but there was no trust there.  Happy to be traded. Said bergevin should not say anything about the atitude in the room since he is never there.

 

It's not like we needed evidence it was BS, but it's still nice to have.

 

Also delightfully ruins every, "You're not in the room, Bergevin is" claim by a supporter.

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