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Markov is a Champion. Is Subban next?

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3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Great post by Commandant. Thanks for that. I tend to lack the intestinal fortitude (and detailed memory) to sift through Bergevin's detritus. 

 

I think the bottom line is that our GM has repeatedly iced a roster transparently lacking the required talent, then regularly blamed the players' 'character' and 'attitude' for inadequate results. When he goes out and adds useless plugs, it reinforces that narrative. 

 

As for (sigh) the Subban deal, look, Subban is a better overall player than Weber, but yes, Weber is a very good defenceman. That trade was totally unnecessary and had nothing to do with on-ice performance or results. Its only justification was 'character' (i.e., bullshit). That further reinforces the narrative.

 

But the real problem is that Bergevin is a POS general manager. I never claimed that his quest for 'character' was a total explanation for his suckage. It seems to be just one more thing he's screwed up, that's all.

 

 

It’s not true. One can say that character and an attitude were part of the reasons of the trade but there are things Weber does better than Subban. Weber scores more goals as a defenseman than Subban. Simple as that. 

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38 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

The guy most thought we would take was Duclair, who has recently struggled, but still is an NHL player. Crisp was a guy with a character story and nothing else.

 

The guy wasn't on any scouting service radar going into the draft. Wasn't ranked in LWOS, McKeen's, FC, ISS, Dobber, THN, THW, HP, etc... no one had a profile on him. 

 

Now of course, sometimes there is a diamond in the rough and NHL staffs should be better than the services, but, here is a guy who never should have went that high.  He wasn't even a decent AHLer...

 

But that character, and we took him in the third round, cause he was big and could fight, and one time he played goalie after all his team's goalies were injured. 

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3 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

It’s not true. One can say that character and an attitude were part of the reasons of the trade but there are things Weber does better than Subban. Weber scores more goals as a defenseman than Subban. Simple as that. 

 

Bullshit..  If you honestly believe character wasn't a huge consideration in that trade, I don't know what to tell you, other than calling bullshit on that premise.

Character was by far the #1 reason, not just some minor consideration.  The goals was the smaller consideration, but far and away was the lockerroom/off-ice issues.  if you don't believe that, you haven't been paying attention. 

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1 hour ago, DON said:

Because some guys are on their own program, a headache to the team and just gotta go.

You didn't hear one complaint from any of players, just fans who can only speculate and make up reasons based on very little.

 

These are definitely concerns.  This forum has said that is all about the unauthorized donation. But you can't ignore the fact that he had so many fights with team mates. And it may seem petty, but how the heck do you not nominate pk as your teams choice for king Clancy on the year that he made a Canadian record setting charity donation. That was the team voting that. I like to look at both sides.  Don't like the trade overall. Miss PK and goes mobility.  Don't miss the on ice dramatics like going down ad though he were shot. Don't care about celebrations.  Question if there were some cancer issues sometimes. 

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11 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

These are definitely concerns.  This forum has said that is all about the unauthorized donation. But you can't ignore the fact that he had so many fights with team mates. And it may seem petty, but how the heck do you not nominate pk as your teams choice for king Clancy on the year that he made a Canadian record setting charity donation. That was the team voting that. I like to look at both sides.  Don't like the trade overall. Miss PK and goes mobility.  Don't miss the on ice dramatics like going down ad though he were shot. Don't care about celebrations.  Question if there were some cancer issues sometimes. 

The donation thing I hadn't heard of and if was his own $ and didn't use any Canadien connection, seems odd Habs could bitch about that, especially when would reflect positively on them I would assume.

Yes, it "seemed" everytime was a altercation at practice a certain #76 was involved and he was always smart enough to not engage a Doug Murray or any large men and took on a Plekanec or Desharnais sized teammate.

At least now Nashville coach calls him "coachable", so getting traded likely burst his bubble a bit and seems good for his maturation. He definitely did very few (none?) spinaramas, didnt carry puck up ice or in opposing zone in playoffs, in little I watched anyways. So has his game totally changed?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

Bullshit..  If you honestly believe character wasn't a huge consideration in that trade, I don't know what to tell you, other than calling bullshit on that premise.

Seriously you guys are going overboard and getting over sensitive on this topic. I’ve never mentioned downvotes on this board but it doesn’t matter what I say anymore, they are coming out whenever I mention Weber or Subban’s name. Even when I mention a cold hard fact. I’ll say it again. Weber scores more goals as a defenseman than Subban. Goals = Hockey.

 

I never said character wasn’t a consideration in the trade. I said that it’s false to say that there are no hockey reasons for the trade and I don’t give a damn what anyone has to say about that. 

 

Statistically, Weber was supposed to help us score goals on the power play and scores more

goals in general than Subban. How many defenseman in the NHl can say that? Weber must be a pretty damn good hockey player. Hockey. This year was a career year in goals for Subban and Weber still was on pace for more.

 

Subban still does things that actually are negative but I’m not allowed to say that. Those negative things are overshadowed by his greatness and not only that, these negative things happen because of his greatness. 

 

After Subban scored in game 7 to make it 1-2 he came to the bench, pumped his chest and started screaming “this is our house”. That was great and inspiring to see, but their team lost 5-1. Weber would have faced the same music with a stoic look on his face and people would then talk about all he has is character.  No skill. Oh right, the skill is there, just less in every imaginable way than Subban. It’s not his fault.

 

The constant claim is that there were no hockey reasons for the trade, and that type of thing happens all the time in the NHL anyway. This one has been blown big.

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Weber wasn't even suppose to be part of the trade with Nashville. 

 

Bergevin was trying to acquire another player for Subban, but apparently Polie changed his mind. Bergevin basically settled on Weber. Or so the story goes 

 

 

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Sure they do some different things. 

 

But honestly... the #1 reason for the trade was off-ice character considerations. 

 

Its been part of every report on the trade.  Every story... whether it's the King Clancy stuff.. or the whispers of fights with teammates, or the Bergevin press conference, or the talk of how Weber is a leader, or the fact that the Analytics were heavily swayed in Subban's favour but Bergevin ignored them saying that it was more than just the numbers, or the coach banning the triple low five, or the fact that no one from the organization showed up at the hospital for his announcement, or the fact the team didn't like the PK76 branding that he's done, and on and on.  The price interview about the trade with Friedmann, Gallagher's comments on Subban this year, all of it is about character. Or the reports that Bergevin was concerned about Subban having too much power after his no trade clause kicked in. Or Therrien calling out subban in the media. The marinaro report the next day that was a total attack on Subban that came from "inside sources"... all of it.

 

Its simply not a believable narrative that the Character issue was anything less than the #1 reason for that trade.  If you believe anything else, I'd like to sell you my ownership stakes in the brooklyn bridge, or perhaps some florida everglades waterfront property.  

 

 

 

 

 

As for complaining about downvotes... join the club... I've been downvoted twice for my post above and 5 times for the post on Weber/Subban last week, so don't cry to me about downvotes on the issue. 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

or the whispers of fights with teammates

You mean videos of scuffles, was no 'whispers'.

Every team has it happen of course...but normally isn't same one person battling different teammates.

Some would say, he simply is ultra competitive and why it happened.

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

Sure they do some different things. 

 

But honestly... the #1 reason for the trade was off-ice character considerations. 

 

Its been part of every report on the trade.  Every story... whether it's the King Clancy stuff.. or the whispers of fights with teammates, or the Bergevin press conference, or the talk of how Weber is a leader, or the fact that the Analytics were heavily swayed in Subban's favour but Bergevin ignored them saying that it was more than just the numbers, or the coach banning the triple low five, or the fact that no one from the organization showed up at the hospital for his announcement, or the fact the team didn't like the PK76 branding that he's done, and on and on.  The price interview about the trade with Friedmann, Gallagher's comments on Subban this year, all of it is about character. Or the reports that Bergevin was concerned about Subban having too much power after his no trade clause kicked in. Or Therrien calling out subban in the media. The marinaro report the next day that was a total attack on Subban that came from "inside sources"... all of it.

 

Its simply not a believable narrative that the Character issue was anything less than the #1 reason for that trade.  If you believe anything else, I'd like to sell you my ownership stakes in the brooklyn bridge, or perhaps some florida everglades waterfront property.  

 

 

 

 

 

As for complaining about downvotes... join the club... I've been downvoted twice for my post above and 5 times for the post on Weber/Subban last week, so don't cry to me about downvotes on the issue. 

I would like to commend all of those who downvote me over the years for their excellent perception and good judgment. Keep up the good work. :huh:

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3 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

These are definitely concerns.  This forum has said that is all about the unauthorized donation. But you can't ignore the fact that he had so many fights with team mates. And it may seem petty, but how the heck do you not nominate pk as your teams choice for king Clancy on the year that he made a Canadian record setting charity donation. That was the team voting that. I like to look at both sides.  Don't like the trade overall. Miss PK and goes mobility.  Don't miss the on ice dramatics like going down ad though he were shot. Don't care about celebrations.  Question if there were some cancer issues sometimes. 

Unauthorized donation???? Really??? A hockey player needs authorization from his hockey team to make a large donation??? Are we talking about an employer-employee relationship, or a master-slave relationship??? Or I guess since Subban is black, he should have checked with his masters!!!🙄😱

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3 hours ago, DON said:

The donation thing I hadn't heard of and if was his own $ and didn't use any Canadien connection, seems odd Habs could bitch about that, especially when would reflect positively on them I would assume.

Yes, it "seemed" everytime was a altercation at practice a certain #76 was involved and he was always smart enough to not engage a Doug Murray or any large men and took on a Plekanec or Desharnais sized teammate.

At least now Nashville coach calls him "coachable", so getting traded likely burst his bubble a bit and seems good for his maturation. He definitely did very few (none?) spinaramas, didnt carry puck up ice or in opposing zone in playoffs, in little I watched anyways. So has his game totally changed?

 

 

Boy I’m sure the hawks should have traded Kane for his issues with teammates and cab drivers🙄🙄. Could have avoided all of th hassles like winning a friggin cup.

 

could it be that he is more coachsble, because he is actually has a legitimate coach and not some ex-bouncer bafoon who likes to make up stories about his broken hearted  captain crying in his arms🙄

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3 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Seriously you guys are going overboard and getting over sensitive on this topic. I’ve never mentioned downvotes on this board but it doesn’t matter what I say anymore, they are coming out whenever I mention Weber or Subban’s name. Even when I mention a cold hard fact. I’ll say it again. Weber scores more goals as a defenseman than Subban. Goals = Hockey.

 

I never said character wasn’t a consideration in the trade. I said that it’s false to say that there are no hockey reasons for the trade and I don’t give a damn what anyone has to say about that. 

 

Statistically, Weber was supposed to help us score goals on the power play and scores more

goals in general than Subban. How many defenseman in the NHl can say that? Weber must be a pretty damn good hockey player. Hockey. This year was a career year in goals for Subban and Weber still was on pace for more.

 

Subban still does things that actually are negative but I’m not allowed to say that. Those negative things are overshadowed by his greatness and not only that, these negative things happen because of his greatness. 

 

After Subban scored in game 7 to make it 1-2 he came to the bench, pumped his chest and started screaming “this is our house”. That was great and inspiring to see, but their team lost 5-1. Weber would have faced the same music with a stoic look on his face and people would then talk about all he has is character.  No skill. Oh right, the skill is there, just less in every imaginable way than Subban. It’s not his fault.

 

The constant claim is that there were no hockey reasons for the trade, and that type of thing happens all the time in the NHL anyway. This one has been blown big.

Yes only goals matter in hockey.  The assists that lead to those goals are irrelevant🙄

thats why Gretzky was so useless once he stopped leading the league in goals.  Maybe the kings should have kept Nichols and traded Gretzky🙄

hmm, I wonder who usually has more assists - Subban or Weber??

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12 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Yes only goals matter in hockey.  The assists that lead to those goals are irrelevant🙄

thats why Gretzky was so useless once he stopped leading the league in goals.  Maybe the kings should have kept Nichols and traded Gretzky🙄

hmm, I wonder who usually has more assists - Subban or Weber??

 

Goals per game average 16-17 and 17-18 (regular season)

Weber: 0.22 (2nd)

Subban: 0.18 (5th)

 

Assists per game average: 16-17 and 17-18 (regular season)

Weber: 0.34 (37th)

Subban: 0.49 (15th)

 

Points per game average: 16-17 and 17-18 (regular season)

Weber: 0.56 (23rd)

Subban: 0.67 (11th)

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12 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Yes only goals matter in hockey.  The assists that lead to those goals are irrelevant🙄

thats why Gretzky was so useless once he stopped leading the league in goals.  Maybe the kings should have kept Nichols and traded Gretzky🙄

hmm, I wonder who usually has more assists - Subban or Weber??

 

Goals per game average 16-17 and 17-18 (regular season)

Weber: 0.22 (2nd)

Subban: 0.18 (5th)

 

Assists per game average: 16-17 and 17-18 (regular season)

Weber: 0.34 (37th)

Subban: 0.49 (15th)

 

Points per game average: 16-17 and 17-18 (regular season)

Weber: 0.56 (23rd)

Subban: 0.67 (11th)

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33 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Goals per game average 16-17 and 17-18 (regular season)

Weber: 0.22 (2nd)

Subban: 0.18 (5th)

 

Assists per game average: 16-17 and 17-18 (regular season)

Weber: 0.34 (37th)

Subban: 0.49 (15th)

 

Points per game average: 16-17 and 17-18 (regular season)

Weber: 0.56 (23rd)

Subban: 0.67 (11th)

So at the end of the day, what did we really gain in terms of on ice performance? Besides 3.5 mph more on a slap shot... 

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3 hours ago, Commandant said:

Sure they do some different things. 

 

But honestly... the #1 reason for the trade was off-ice character considerations. 

 

Its been part of every report on the trade.  Every story... whether it's the King Clancy stuff.. or the whispers of fights with teammates, or the Bergevin press conference, or the talk of how Weber is a leader, or the fact that the Analytics were heavily swayed in Subban's favour but Bergevin ignored them saying that it was more than just the numbers, or the coach banning the triple low five, or the fact that no one from the organization showed up at the hospital for his announcement, or the fact the team didn't like the PK76 branding that he's done, and on and on.  The price interview about the trade with Friedmann, Gallagher's comments on Subban this year, all of it is about character. Or the reports that Bergevin was concerned about Subban having too much power after his no trade clause kicked in. Or Therrien calling out subban in the media. The marinaro report the next day that was a total attack on Subban that came from "inside sources"... all of it.

 

Its simply not a believable narrative that the Character issue was anything less than the #1 reason for that trade.  If you believe anything else, I'd like to sell you my ownership stakes in the brooklyn bridge, or perhaps some florida everglades waterfront property.  

 

 

 

 

 

As for complaining about downvotes... join the club... I've been downvoted twice for my post above and 5 times for the post on Weber/Subban last week, so don't cry to me about downvotes on the issue. 

I’m certainly not crying about downvotes considering it’s the first time I’ve used the word after having been on this website for over 10 years. However, when all I’ve done is make one post in a 24 hour span on the topic and find myself having multiple downvotes on previous posts from days ago that I wouldn’t even be able to find and may even be unrelated to this topic, just because of that one post, I have to conclude that people are over sensitive on the topic. 

 

The point is that even if a perceived character issue was the initial catalyst for the trade, the Habs then still got an elite all star caliber player on their team in return. One cannot say that the trade was only because of character, had no hockey reasons, and then also add that Subban  has zero character flaws. 

 

I also personally do not agree that Subban is so much better than Weber. He is a better point getter, smoother on his feet and with puck movement, but scores less goals and turns over the puck in higher risk situations. That’s without taking into account their different demeanor. I understand people don’t like turnover numbers. I understand Weber turns it over as well. I understand Habs stats at the Bell Center are skewed. This doesn’t change the fact that their styles are different and that comes with the good and the bad. 

 

I still think that trades like Karlsson for Burns, Byfuglien for Carlson or Subban for Weber are relative washes and not such a big deal. Different looks for each team. 

 

I’ve seen a comparison to the Savard trade and people forget that if it were the Savard trade, it would have been Subban and a pick for Shea Weber.

 

This entire time, I’ve rarely seen any of the people who dislike the trade mention how great it is to have Weber on the team. I’ve seen things like “this isn’t about Weber”, “it wasn’t Weber’s fault the trade happened”, “no one is saying Weber is bad”. 

 

Fact is, it’s a great thing to have Shea Weber on this team. The main reason people are actually judging this move to such a serious extent are because they hate Bergevin in general, or had a preconceived notion that Subban was absolutely untouchable prior to the trade. 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Habopotamus said:

So at the end of the day, what did we really gain in terms of on ice performance? Besides 3.5 mph more on a slap shot... 

Character, attitude and leadership. Oh wait, those are still issues.  But hey we did get older and added more senior citizen years of cap hit.

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2 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Unauthorized donation???? Really??? A hockey player needs authorization from his hockey team to make a large donation??? Are we talking about an employer-employee relationship, or a master-slave relationship??? Or I guess since Subban is black, he should have checked with his masters!!!🙄😱

Are you directing that at me? I dont agree with it. I'm just saying that posters on this board have guessed that the donation led to his trade. I think it'  a foolish comment and baseless. I don't give a single shit about the subject. In fact I respect him as a very giving and overall good human being. I certainly hope you aren't going off on me with that racism garbage. 

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13 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

Are you directing that at me? I dont agree with it. I'm just saying that posters on this board have guessed that it contributed to it. I don't give a single shit about the subject. In fact I respect him as a very giving and overall good human being. I certainly hope you aren't going off on me with that racist garbage.

That’s the thing. I actually couldn’t give a crap about the topic. I loved Subban when he was on our team but did not become a Nashville supporter when the trade happened. To be clear, I have no issues with those who did, but part of my heartfelt debate on this topic stems from the fact that I am a Habs fan. I’ve seen too often on this website people getting criticized for basically loving the Habs and supporting the team. Weber is now a Hab and while I personally don’t agree there’s a huge discrepancy in the overall impact Weber and Subban can have on a team, even if I did, I wouldn’t troll a fellow Hab fan for being just that and supporting Weber. 

 

Boston sucked last year. Tampa missed the playoffs. But no, they are perennial contenders. The Habs on the other hand apparently have attitude issues, even though that type of thing is certain to change from year to year with off season moves. Most people here dislike Bergevin, but when he says something stupid like the team has an attitude problem, people use it as gospel to prove that the Weber influence had no impact. Weber didn’t even play most of this season and the team will have a better “attitude” once it starts winning. It’s not necessarily the other way around. 

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4 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Most people here dislike Bergevin, but when he says something stupid like the team has an attitude problem, people use it as gospel to prove that the Weber influence had no impact. Weber didn’t even play most of this season and the team will have a better “attitude” once it starts winning. It’s not necessarily the other way around. 

 

I guess you forgot that Bergevin said the attitude problem started before the team played a game. Which would include Weber.

 

But again, I agree with the Joe Morrow's that it's Bergevin making excuses and not something he actually knows. The first time Julien contradicted Bergevin was on this. "Attitude" and "Character" are just buzz words. 

 

The whole reason people say Weber's influence is exaggerated is because it's treated as a major reason to have a Shea Weber on the club. He's supposed to be a mythic leader. That's not Weber's claim. That's the claim from people trying to make Weber seem more valuable than he is. He's a well respected hockey player. That's it. The locker hasn't turned around with him being there but anyone thinking it would was just buying into the hype. Any award for leadership with Messier's name on it shouldn't be taken serious.

 

Fact is, if anyone says "personality issues" is a reason for the trade, it was in Nashville's favour. They have been 100% positive about him. Say he's a major part of the locker. Laviolette loves him. To remove Weber and add Subban to Nashville, it seems like a team with a lot more unity. Not saying that's because Weber was a problem, but he certainly didn't seem like a solution.

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2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Goals per game average 16-17 and 17-18 (regular season)

Weber: 0.22 (2nd)

Subban: 0.18 (5th)

 

Assists per game average: 16-17 and 17-18 (regular season)

Weber: 0.34 (37th)

Subban: 0.49 (15th)

 

Points per game average: 16-17 and 17-18 (regular season)

Weber: 0.56 (23rd)

Subban: 0.67 (11th)

Career #s for comparison

Weber; 867games; 47pt/82gm; 0.22g/gm; 0.36a/gm

Subby; 582games; 53pt/82gm; 0.15g/gm; 0.49a/gm

 

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2 hours ago, Habopotamus said:

So at the end of the day, what did we really gain in terms of on ice performance? Besides 3.5 mph more on a slap shot... 

A $7.8m better defender and more respected player (likely soon to be Hab captain), vs a $9.0m weaker defender who has about same productivity.

 

Dollar wise (for Mr Molson) Weber costs $30m total for rest of his contract

The ex hab will cost Nashville $36m for 4 more years...but I kinda think he wont still be in Nashville by end of contract.

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Look. The trade did not give us the better overall player by any non-bullshit measurement standard, did not make us a better team, and obviously did not solve the supposed problems of 'leadership' and 'character,' since our idiot GM is still citing those as excuses. So it was either a pointless lateral move, or a failure - on its own terms. I don't know why this is so hard to recognize, or why people seem to think that saying this is somehow an attack on Weber, blaming him for the Habs' suckage, etc.. The trade served no good purpose and still doesn't.

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34 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Look. The trade did not give us the better overall player by any non-bullshit measurement standard, did not make us a better team, and obviously did not solve the supposed problems of 'leadership' and 'character,' since our idiot GM is still citing those as excuses. So it was either a pointless lateral move, or a failure - on its own terms. I don't know why this is so hard to recognize, or why people seem to think that saying this is somehow an attack on Weber, blaming him for the Habs' suckage, etc.. The trade served no good purpose and still doesn't.

So do we get to talk about all the “pointless” “lateral” moves that “served no purpose” in the history of the NHL? Or just this one? There is without a shadow of a doubt a few players on the team who were happy with the transaction for whatever reason they feel. I would be surprised if there were a single player on the team who were like oh no we lost Subban and are getting Weber. While I do not know for a fact, it does seem that both sides of this argument are true. In that case, we got a player who is a 47% vs 53% at worst, judging by their career statistics and leaving defense out of the equation, but also had players on his own team happy to see him leave. It seems as though at least Gallagher felt that way. 

 

 

 

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