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Machine of Loving Grace

Max Pacioretty Watch

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I think more realistic would be some combination that included both of buqstad and Borgstrom.  While we would send patches/prospects/picks. Maybe Shaw? If Talon

still likes him?

 

I hat no idea how highly Borgstrom is thought of but I would insist on his inclusion in the trade. 

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9 hours ago, l<OV4L3V said:

 

I guess ROR was wishful thinking, 

 

now that the dominoes have fallen, who are the remaining candidates beyond Spezza and an outside chance on Trochek in a trade? 

 

We are not getting immediate help at centre.  Not a long term option anyway.  They might go for a stop gap like Spezza to flip at the deadline, but its pretty clear the plan is to wait for Kotkaniemi, Poehling, and the rest of the centres in the system (and possibly one drafted in 2019, ie Jack Hughes) to develop and make the team. 

 

This is a rebuild, whether Bergevin says it or not. 

 

Also no chance of getting Trocheck. 

 

If Max is traded, i expect a young prospect, and it might not even be a centre.  With all the centres the Habs drafted, I could see them going for a LHD.

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17 hours ago, Commandant said:

pretty clear the plan is to wait for Kotkaniemi, Poehling, and the rest of the centres in the system.

 

If Max is traded, i expect a young prospect, and it might not even be a centre.  With all the centres the Habs drafted, I could see them going for a LHD.

 

The prospects still beg the question, who will be the #1 C?

 

Max’s value might be higher as a trade deadline addition for a pushing team (heres to hoping he has 20+ in the back of the net by then). I would be disappointed if the trade didnt involve offence. Prospects make sense but I think MB would be seling Paciorettys stock short without landing a NHL ready asset in return. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, l<OV4L3V said:

 

The prospects still beg the question, who will be the #1 C?

 

Max’s value might be higher as a trade deadline addition for a pushing team (heres to hoping he has 20+ in the back of the net by then). I would be disappointed if the trade didnt involve offence. Prospects make sense but I think MB would be seling Paciorettys stock short without landing a NHL ready asset in return. 

 

 

 

The plan is clearly that Kotkaniemi is the eventual number 1 c. No prospect is guaranteed but thats the clear plan at this point.

 

As for max's return. We are rebuilding.  Id rather a higher ceiling prospect than lower ceiling nhl player at this point

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At this point, i really think they (Habs leadership and Max and Walsh) need to have a heart to heart sit down but that doesn't seem like a natural fit for Bergevin's old school ways.

Max scores goals, we need goals.  Habs need leadership and consistency in a captain, that's not Max's forte.  No i don't like how he disappears at times which is why he needs to not be the captain anymore (never should have been frankly). But we need his goals.

The sit down needs to get Max to agree to giving up the captaincy and the Habs need to buck up and pay the man (not 8x8) but also not 6x6.  I'll leave the financial details to others.  If this team really needs an attitude adjustment, it will not occur with Max having the C.  

Also, this works for the retool/rebuild plan as well as long as we can sign Max to a decent deal and he returns to form his value will increase to where it should net us a stronger return at the deadline.

Something has got to give and I think both sides need to have their egos checked, focus on the team and figure out a way forward to benefit all sides.  As it is now, the future with Max is yet another tale of an asset being devalued...a hallmark of Bergevin's legacy.

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 At Max's age... and his reliance on speed... and us not competing for at least 2-3 years.  I have no interest in a 7-8 year deal for him.  

 

Get younger.  Speed up the rebuild.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 At Max's age... and his reliance on speed... and us not competing for at least 2-3 years.  I have no interest in a 7-8 year deal for him.  

 

Get younger.  Speed up the rebuild.

 

 

 

Yes indeed.

 

Also, we have wingers up the wazoo. None as good as Max, but he will be Rick Nash by the time we're any good. Move him for a promising puck-moving Markov replacement, make Weber or Gallagher the C, let's all move on with our lives. Frankly a 50-point LD will mean more to team success than a declining MaxPac.

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Trade Pacs and sign Maroon...

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10 minutes ago, Dalhabs said:

Trade Pacs and sign Maroon...

 

On a one-year deal to trade him at the deadline, I'd be fine with that.  

 

but I'm not giving Maroon term either. 

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Well never mind a center they need to get back a top Defenseman in a trade for Pacioretty. This is our weaknesses point in the organization right now. Center is ok with Kotkaniemi and Poehling, plus it looks like we're in the running for another top 5 pick so that would give us another top center to add to this group.  We need Defensemen.

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On 7/5/2018 at 9:26 AM, Metallica said:

Well never mind a center they need to get back a top Defenseman in a trade for Pacioretty. This is our weaknesses point in the organization right now. Center is ok with Kotkaniemi and Poehling, plus it looks like we're in the running for another top 5 pick so that would give us another top center to add to this group.  We need Defensemen.

 

Agreed. Even one d-man who can move the puck very well will make a huge difference; suddenly all our FWs will start looking better - mark my words. MB's complete inability to understand the importance of puck-moving defencemen in today's game is one of the most astonishing manifestations of ignorance by any GM I can think of.

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2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Agreed. Even one d-man who can move the puck very well will make a huge difference; suddenly all our FWs will start looking better - mark my words. MB's complete inability to understand the importance of puck-moving defencemen in today's game is one of the most astonishing manifestations of ignorance by any GM I can think of.

 

Brian Burke's Truckulence says hi

 

But we are trouble down the middle and on the back end probably worse than any other team right now

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https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/what-the-puck-canadiens-and-max-pacioretty-are-in-lose-lose-situation

 

Quote

The problem for Bergevin is he’s been trying to trade Pacioretty for months and so far it hasn’t worked. So the other 30 general managers know Bergevin is desperate because it’s almost unimaginable that the Habs captain will start the year with Montreal. The other GMs can offer less than market value for him, knowing full well that Bergevin doesn’t have much room to manoeuvre.

 

What I’m hearing from very reliable sources is that Canadiens management has been unhappy with Pacioretty for a while. Remember that controversy when it was alleged former coach Michel Therrien was overheard at a golf tournament saying Patches was the worst captain in Canadiens history? Well where there’s smoke, there’s fire. I’m hearing that Therrien and his close friend Bergevin shared the same view of not-so-mad-Max.

 

If there's a rush to get him moved and not keep him on the roster come season time, Bergevin is going to end up eating a lower market price. If he can hold off until the deadline, he'll get a much better deal. He had a chance at a great deal, but Florida getting Hoffman, Calgary getting Neal, San Jose getting Kane, Philly getting JVR, and Perron back to St. Louis meant the winger market dried up. He could have got great value for him prior to that but he wanted too much. Now everyone is lowballing him because no team feels they *need* him yet. They won'g need him until the season gets going. 

 

So it's basically wait to the deadline? Get Max value. Trade him earlier? Get less.

 

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55 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

So it's basically wait to the deadline? Get Max value. Trade him earlier? Get less.

 

I'm happy with waiting until the trade deadline. Will be nice to see our three amigos (Price, Weber, Pacioretty) play together during the Christmas/New Years holidays and to see if they are able to rally the team around them or just crash and burn like the last couple of years

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5 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I'm happy with waiting until the trade deadline. Will be nice to see our three amigos (Price, Weber, Pacioretty) play together during the Christmas/New Years holidays and to see if they are able to rally the team around them or just crash and burn like the last couple of years

I thought the three amigos was Ribeiro, Dagenais and Theodore? 😭

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5 hours ago, Dalhabs said:

I thought the three amigos was Ribeiro, Dagenais and Theodore? 😭

You are right, the three cariocas? The three stooges? The three strikes we're out? 

We need a nick name for these guys 

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14 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/what-the-puck-canadiens-and-max-pacioretty-are-in-lose-lose-situation

 

 

If there's a rush to get him moved and not keep him on the roster come season time, Bergevin is going to end up eating a lower market price. If he can hold off until the deadline, he'll get a much better deal. He had a chance at a great deal, but Florida getting Hoffman, Calgary getting Neal, San Jose getting Kane, Philly getting JVR, and Perron back to St. Louis meant the winger market dried up. He could have got great value for him prior to that but he wanted too much. Now everyone is lowballing him because no team feels they *need* him yet. They won'g need him until the season gets going. 

 

So it's basically wait to the deadline? Get Max value. Trade him earlier? Get less.

 

 

Seems sensible. My problem is, as your list of names suggests (and so does the discussion that Dallas would be in on Patches except they're prioritizing Erik Karlsson), there always seems to be other players that teams regard as 'just as desirable' as MaxPac on the market. Why would this deadline be any different in this respect? It goes back to my point that Patches just doesn't seem as valuable on the market as his career numbers would suggest.

 

The solution may be for him to have a monster season. That column out of EDM describing him as a 30-year-old 17-goal scorer is the sort of thinking that plays in here. If he gets back on a high-scoring pace then maybe he can vault ahead of the crowd. Trouble is, without puck-movers on D to get him the puck, that's a tall order. 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Seems sensible. My problem is, as your list of names suggests (and so does the discussion that Dallas would be in on Patches except they're prioritizing Erik Karlsson), there always seems to be other players that teams regard as 'just as desirable' as MaxPac on the market. Why would this deadline be any different in this respect? It goes back to my point that Patches just doesn't seem as valuable on the market as his career numbers would suggest.

 

The solution may be for him to have a monster season. That column out of EDM describing him as a 30-year-old 17-goal scorer is the sort of thinking that plays in here. If he gets back on a high-scoring pace then maybe he can vault ahead of the crowd. Trouble is, without puck-movers on D to get him the puck, that's a tall order. 

 

You gotta remember that Edmonton doesn't want to give up *anything* for *anyone* that is remotely good, even though they are wasting McDavid every year. They are some of the worst for that, and it goes back to the days of claiming that Ales Hemsky is an elite player with elite possession and you gotta be giving up a top 5 draft pick plus if you want him. Few fanbases are worse than them when it comes to that. 

 

And yes, Pacioretty does have question marks. But when looking at the rumoured offers for Pacioretty at the deadline and draft, it's not like teams are completely lowballing the Habs. Kings were rumoured to have Vilardi or Pearson coming back if Pacioretty accepted their contract extension (after saying no to a deal that was just Pacioretty at the deadline). The problem wasn't lowballs but Bergevin high balls. Asking for Trochek? Come on.

 

The thing is, Rick Nash has a much better reputation than Pacioretty. That said, he had not been healthier and his decline was much harder than Pacioretty's (if he is declining) and with 18 goals and 28 points, Boston gave up a first round pick, a B prospect, a cap dump, and a B+ youngster in Ryan Spooner (who put up 16 points in 20 games with the Rangers so he's already outproducing the guy he was traded for) for just a single playoff run with Rick Nash. Being 50+ games into the season changes your perspective on what you'll give up and what a player means to you. And trust me, it's not like Nash is a playoff warrior compared to Pacioretty.

 

So yeah, *right now* his value is very low. This is the wrong time to trade Max Pacioretty. Most teams got their shiny new winger and what Bergevin wants is too much for what someone might pay right now (his window was the draft but his ask was high). But come trade deadline, the only player that will be more valuable will be Panarin (unless he signs an extension somewhere). Pacioretty will cost nothing on the cap so a team like Boston won't need to take a cap dump to acquire him like they did with Rick Nash. And even if he is having not the greatest season, his value to a team like Tampa that's stacked already to now have a Pacioretty getting passes from Kucherov and Stamkos will be worth mortgaging their future.

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Players like Pacioretty don’t get traded during the off season for fair value. With the exception of really only a couple of teams, teams don’t have that “contender” or “seller”mentality prior to the season starting. Pacioretty has value, and other teams are interested. There isn’t much to be thought about it when we look at what’s happening, or hasn’t happened, with Jeff Skinner. He’s another quality winger who becomes a free agent after this year, and he’s likely not going to be moved any time soon either.

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I'd also like to add that a lot depends on what one's expectations have been on the Pacioretty file. If one has felt as though he should have been moved for quite some time now, it will seem as though other teams have been prioritizing player after player over Pacioretty. If one feels as though he wasn't ever likely to be moved prior to this year's trade deadline, or if they were hoping he would remain a Hab, it won't seem that anything out of the ordinary is transpiring. 

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Is generally ignore the edmonton media.  Easily the worst group of any canadian nhl city and amongst  the worst  in the NHL.  Those guys just dont know what they are talking about a lot of the time.

 

Staples, lowetide, rishaug, terry jones, they are generally awful

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Well  whatever we think of the Edmonton media - not a topic towards which I've given much soulful thought - the fact remains that if Max has a so-so season, it will consolidate the narrative of his decline, which will further depress his value. And looking at the roster, there is reason for concern, given the absence of either a Radu-equivalent and/or a quality puck-mover. The best thing he might do for all concerned is throw away any earnest concern about a 'two way' game, etc., and just play selfishly to inflate his numbers. It's not like the team is going anywhere anyway.

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21 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Well  whatever we think of the Edmonton media - not a topic towards which I've given much soulful thought - the fact remains that if Max has a so-so season, it will consolidate the narrative of his decline, which will further depress his value. And looking at the roster, there is reason for concern, given the absence of either a Radu-equivalent and/or a quality puck-mover. The best thing he might do for all concerned is throw away any earnest concern about a 'two way' game, etc., and just play selfishly to inflate his numbers. It's not like the team is going anywhere anyway.

 

If Pacioretty is a rental, I'm expecting a return in the range of Rick Nash (1st/B player/B prospect/cap dump) and Eric Staal (two seconds and C prospect).

 

The reason why we should have got him out last season is what Buffalo got for Jason Pominville back in 12-13: 1st, 2nd, and two B prospects (I think Matt Hackett had real NHL potential but he got hurt and never recovered). That's the return we *want* for Pacioretty but not what we're gonna get if he's a UFA. 

 

Of course that's why Bergevin has been hoping to make him a sign and trade, but that severely limits our options. And if we don't trade him by December, that option goes out the window. Nobody really signs and trades for a deadline rental.

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2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Nobody really signs and trades for a deadline rental.

But, if Pacioretty is sitting around 30 goals at end of Feb, he would still fetch a huge haul.

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