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Habs re-sign Tomas Plekanec

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2 hours ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

So what is 3rd line production in the NHL? 25-30 even strength points?

 

How does a 22/23 yr old earn more minutes over  a 35/36 year old who has clearly lost A step?

 

 

Man. There is no way any coach in any league would sit Plek so dlr could get experience.  

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3 hours ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

So what is 3rd line production in the NHL? 25-30 even strength points?

 

How does a 22/23 yr old earn more minutes over  a 35/36 year old who has clearly lost A step?

 

 

Like Danault did when he first came to the CH.

 

Like Pleks in 2005 when he worked hi sway into the line up.

 

Like Gallagher on his rookie year

 

They have to be better than players they are competing internally with...

 

I think that Vejdemo, Olofsson or Ikonen will make DLR expendable in a year or so. DLR has been with the CH long enough to show he has peaked. I hope we can trade him for a 2nd round pick (we got two for Eller).

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11 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

Man. There is no way any coach in any league would sit Plek so dlr could get experience.  

Your talking about a guy who’s actually stopped producing pretty much for the last 2 seasons right?? In a league that has taken a clear direction towards youth...

 

 

10 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Like Danault did when he first came to the CH.

 

Like Pleks in 2005 when he worked hi sway into the line up.

 

Like Gallagher on his rookie year

 

They have to be better than players they are competing internally with...

 

I think that Vejdemo, Olofsson or Ikonen will make DLR expendable in a year or so. DLR has been with the CH long enough to show he has peaked. I hope we can trade him for a 2nd round pick (we got two for Eller).

Neither question was answered... just more rhetoric...

 

how does this happen? What does DLR need to do to get the confidence to be put out on the ice by a coach who clearly trusts plex over everyone? 

Example> 3on3 OT even though we continue to get shredded in oT?

 

what did danault do to get the chance to play between pacioretty and radulov for more then half a season?  He started the season at 4th line winger and due to injury was catapolped to top line Center? Do you even recall the Centers we had or the injuries sustained?

 

plex was a 2nd line C in the NHL and his AHL production showed that. He played  3 seasons in the AHL un interrupted as a top line center in comparison to DLR splitting time up and down from the AHL and NHL

 

what did Gallagher do in his rookie season in order to get a spot in the top 9? How did he earn that spot? Or was he placed in that role and given the oppurtunity to run with it?

 

 

so oloffson and company are going to unsurp DLR as soon as 2019?please

 

 

DLR has peaked at C at just 23? 

 

So has all of Lehknonan, drouin, Hudon, Juulsen, Domi, sherback, Evans, peaked all aged 23 give or take?

 

this is absurd!

 

nobody is saying or at least im not saying DLR will become a top 6 center.

 

im saying with the movement towards youth and considering DLR falls in the exact same age group as half the forwards why would Julien not give him an extended look on the 3rd line?

 

He needs to be given the oppurtunity to play in that position for an extended period of time and see if he can run with it?

 

We know all about what plex can do.... its time to pass the bloody torch cause the flame is OUT!

 

 

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36 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

Your talking about a guy who’s actually stopped producing pretty much for the last 2 seasons right?? In a league that has taken a clear direction towards youth...

 

 

 

In both of those seasons he's produced more than DLR has in 119 NHL games. 

 

Jacob de la Rose's best AHL season was 31 points. (Plekanec had 28 and 26 in the NHL in these two seasons of not producing). 

 

This is the part I don't understand.... after three AHL seasons, and he was not scoring in any of them, what makes you think he can produce third line offence at the NHL level?

 

why is a guy who couldn't score at a lower level suddenly going to score in the NHL. 

 

The guy is what he is... and yes, 23 is old enough to know what he is, when he hasn't scored in the AHL, the SHL, the Allsvenskan, or anywhere else he has played high end hockey. 

The World Championships you brought up earlier.... 1 goal and 1 assist in 10 games. 

 

 

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Just because someone is young doesn’t mean they deserve to be played out of position within the lineup. If you’re not projecting him to be a top 6 center, then there’s little reason to move him up the lineup simply because he is young. 

 

Despite the movement to youth, Plekanec is still more suited for a third line role than De La Rose.  The other young players you listed who moved up in the lineup have had more upside than De La Rose. Even Danault.

 

What you’re currently saying is similar to

saying let’s play Petry on the third pair, ignore Noah Juulsen, and play Brett Lernout on the second pair because he’s young.

 

In addition to Plekanec, Matthew Peca is higher on the depth chart than De La Rose. You said you didn’t know much about him, but he is. Teams usually construct their lineup based on depth charts and chemistry. Right now our depth chart based on all factors combined is Danault-Drouin-Plekanec-Peca-De La Rose.

 

I think what’s being overlooked is that despite the fan’s impression of the direction of the team, the coaches and players will enter the season trying to win. While Plekanec’s offense dried up last year, there is still a slight chance it goes up this year and regardless, even 6 goals is more than we should expect from De La Rose in a given calendar year. He had 1 goal and 1 assist in 10 games during his ‘helpful’ run with Sweden. Add to that that Plekanec can still shut down opposing team’s players and he will not see 4th line minutes next year with the current forwards corps we have.

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It's too bad Mccarron is looking more and more like a bust.

 

Right now he should be our number 2/3 C

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He should never have been drafted as high as he was

 

Again the kid couldn't score on the NTDP

 

If a kid can't score in junior, he's not going to start scoring when he hits the NHL

 

I can see exceptions for 17 year olds playing in mens leagues like the SHL or KHL or Liiga but not for those playing junior hockey

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It’s clear at this point that  MacCarron has all the tools to succeed except the one GLARING ability to skate in this “new NHL”...

 

i defended him him for a while with the hopes his skating would improve with more time. And although it has improved to some degree,  not nearly enough to play any significant role ever. Not even on a 4th line. He just always seems to be behind every play all the time.

 

 

 

As for plex and DLR...

 

i not once said said this guy was going to be anywhere near our top 6 and start scoring! Not once!

 

im asking for freaking change and plex is not change.. it’s more of the same bullS&t ! 

 

whether its its peca or DLR or Evans or even one of our new F’n rookies, or another move... I just want us to move forward from TPlex  playing substantial minutes period! 

 

 

very frustrated with this off season! 

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To me, McCarron is more evidence of the Habs failure to develop players.  McCarron's BEST AHL year, at least statistically (and by a decent margin), was his rookie season as a pro.  How do they not get his skating addressed over the past 3 years?  If his skating is that poor they should have him in skating clinics and speed skating (those are the obvious ones) but even telling him to get into figure skating and martial arts in the off-seasons to work on balance and footwork...yeah, it sounds funny but this stuff helps.  He should be doing explosiveness drills to improve his first step.  He should be watching video with trainers to break down his game and find the bottlenecks in his development. 

 

He also scored 68 points (28 goals 40 assists) in 56 games in his final year of junior.   Followed that up with a solid rookie AHL year too.

He's had very little PP time in the minors.  While he may not be a big scorer I'm surprised they didn't use him in front of the net more in the AHL.

I'm not sure the "he couldn't score in junior" comment is really the issue.  As a prospect he was progressing well until the Habs "development program" kicked in...

 

I don't think anyone expected him to be a first line C or high scoring power forward...2nd line was a maybe (if everything went right) and a strong 3rd line guy should've been probable given his size, strength, reach, face-offs, high-energy motor, etc.

 

He can still put it together but his ceiling is obviously looking limited now.  I expect will ultimately become an NHL regular but without a leap forward he's looking more like a fringe guy. 

He's not a bust yet but he needs to earn his way up, get his minutes in at Laval and hopefully get some things sorted out with a hopefully improved development plan.

 

This development issue has played out with a number of our prospects over the years.  Either Timmins can't identify talent and draft (I doubt that's the case given his picks were often well regarded at the draft times) or the Habs can't develop (this seems much more likely and this issue goes back a LONG time). 

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56 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

It’s clear at this point that  MacCarron has all the tools to succeed except the one GLARING ability to skate in this “new NHL”...

 

i defended him him for a while with the hopes his skating would improve with more time. And although it has improved to some degree,  not nearly enough to play any significant role ever. Not even on a 4th line. He just always seems to be behind every play all the time.

 

 

 

As for plex and DLR...

 

i not once said said this guy was going to be anywhere near our top 6 and start scoring! Not once!

 

im asking for freaking change and plex is not change.. it’s more of the same bullS&t ! 

 

whether its its peca or DLR or Evans or even one of our new F’n rookies, or another move... I just want us to move forward from TPlex  playing substantial minutes period! 

 

 

very frustrated with this off season! 

 

We all know Pleks is not here long term. 

 

You just have to realize that playing him, is a means to an end.  Just like continuing to play him last year when things were in the dumpster was a means to getting Olofsson, Valiev and Rychel. 

 

Olofsson is a much higher ceiling of prospect, getting another player like that out of Plekanec should be the goal again... not worrying about DLR who you admit doesn't have offensive upside. 

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17 hours ago, Zowpeb said:

 

To me, McCarron is more evidence of the Habs failure to develop players.  McCarron's BEST AHL year, at least statistically (and by a decent margin), was his rookie season as a pro.  How do they not get his skating addressed over the past 3 years?  If his skating is that poor they should have him in skating clinics and speed skating (those are the obvious ones) but even telling him to get into figure skating and martial arts in the off-seasons to work on balance and footwork...yeah, it sounds funny but this stuff helps.  He should be doing explosiveness drills to improve his first step.  He should be watching video with trainers to break down his game and find the bottlenecks in his development. 

 

Lefebvre told him to be a goon essentially. 

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On 2018-07-03 at 11:39 PM, alfredoh2009 said:

I think that Vejdemo, Olofsson or Ikonen will make DLR expendable in a year or so. DLR has been with the CH long enough to show he has peaked. I hope we can trade him for a 2nd round pick (we got two for Eller).


And somewhere Lars Eller is laughing with a Stanley Cup ring and a Stanley Cup GWG, DLR was never projected to be more than a 3rd or 4th liner

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31 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Lefebvre told him to be a goon essentially. 

 

Thats what you do with a guy who was never that good.

 

His junior stats arent even great.

 

His first year post draft he was one of the worst draftees (not just forst rounders... but draftees out of all seven rounds... he was 2nd worst for forwards in ppg)

 

The second year was better but it still wasnt great.  He did well with domi/marner in London but after the trade christian dvorak took his spot on the line and scored even more... he also.was less than a ppg in oshawa.  Thats bad for a D+2 year and a guy who is a lot bigger and stronger than his competition.

 

I keep asking it and no one is answering.

 

If a guy doesnt score at lower levels why does anyone hope he can score in the NHL?

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At Max's age and his reliance on speed and our team likely to need 2-3 years before we are ready to compete i have zero interest in a 7 or 8 year deal that could easily turn into an albatross.

 

Get younger assets and speed up the rebuild.  That remains the smart move.

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3 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Thats what you do with a guy who was never that good.

 

His junior stats arent even great.

 

His first year post draft he was one of the worst draftees (not just forst rounders... but draftees out of all seven rounds... he was 2nd worst for forwards in ppg)

 

The second year was better but it still wasnt great.  He did well with domi/marner in London but after the trade christian dvorak took his spot on the line and scored even more... he also.was less than a ppg in oshawa.  Thats bad for a D+2 year and a guy who is a lot bigger and stronger than his competition.

 

I keep asking it and no one is answering.

 

If a guy doesnt score at lower levels why does anyone hope he can score in the NHL?

 

27 points in 31 games in Oshawa, 18 points in 21 games for the playoffs. Was looking decent enough in his first year in the AHL and then Lefebvre started messing with him. Should have been primarily used to build him as a Bickell/Clowe type.

 

He clearly should have never been drafted in the first round, but there was something to develop with his work in the corners and work in front of the net and Lefebvre was not a smart enough coach to do it. He saw size and said, "Goon". Same thing happened to Tinordi by Therrien.

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26 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

27 points in 31 games in Oshawa, 18 points in 21 games for the playoffs. Was looking decent enough in his first year in the AHL and then Lefebvre started messing with him. Should have been primarily used to build him as a Bickell/Clowe type.

 

He clearly should have never been drafted in the first round, but there was something to develop with his work in the corners and work in front of the net and Lefebvre was not a smart enough coach to do it. He saw size and said, "Goon". Same thing happened to Tinordi by Therrien.

 

27 points in 31 games in Oshawa, 18 points in 21 games for the playoffs. 

 

For a 19-year old, in his D+2 season, in the OHL, and a first round pick.... those stats are very, very mediocre. 

 

At that age, in your last year of junior eligibility, If you aren't well above a point per game, the chances of you being a top 6 forward in the NHL are miniscule. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

27 points in 31 games in Oshawa, 18 points in 21 games for the playoffs. 

 

For a 19-year old, in his D+2 season, in the OHL, and a first round pick.... those stats are very, very mediocre. 

 

At that age, in your last year of junior eligibility, If you aren't well above a point per game, the chances of you being a top 6 forward in the NHL are miniscule. 

 

 

He didn't need to be a top six forward. Third line wing with powerplay time.

 

Him and Crisp should have never been drafted where they were, but that doesn't mean he didn't have NHL potential and wasn't handled properly. If you could get over your bias on it, you'd see that. 

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6 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

He didn't need to be a top six forward. Third line wing with powerplay time.

 

Him and Crisp should have never been drafted where they were, but that doesn't mean he didn't have NHL potential and wasn't handled properly. If you could get over your bias on it, you'd see that. 

 

I had him as a third rounder... so yes, he had some potential, but many third rounders never achieve that for a myriad of reasons. 

 

He never improved his skating.  Thats not all on Lefebvre. 

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Posted (edited)

So much talk about our third line centre. 

 

I've always been of the belief that the third line centre is a 'key' defensive role - think Bob Gainey or Guy Carbonneau.  That is where Pleks fits.  Always has, and still does.  And he doesn't fit anywhere else.

 

Where most of this discussion seems to be trending is about which player is our third best 'offensive' centre.  That is a very different discussion, and a very different role.

 

The fear is that the 4th line hardly ever steps on the ice - making the 4th line centre almost a waste.  In this case, maybe you put a tough guy there to add a little sandpaper to your team, and that is what contenders often did in the past (not as much today, but it still happens).

 

Now on a rebuilding team (or retooling - whatever you want to call it - we suck right now and are building for the future), you roll four lines.  When that is the case, your 4th line centre should be (and often is) a younger player trying to make the most of his opportunities with hopes of moving up to the second line (same for the 4th line wingers).  IF the team (and with the Habs that is a big if, even if it is what should be done) rolls 4 lines - then 4th line centre is the perfect place for a player like DLR.  A totally different role than 3rd line C (Plekanec).  More like a line 2B.

 

Of course, it wouldn't hurt if we actually had a legitimate 1C or 2C!

 

 

Edited by titanfan

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The third line is the checking line is antiquated thinking. 

 

Most teams in the NHL are matching one of their top two centres against the other team's best line. 

 

they are rolling 3 offensive lines and a 4th line (energy unit). 

 

Just look around the league, who gets the tough matchup for their teams, its usually one of the top 2 Cs.  Bergeron, Barkov, Kadri (last year), Tavares (in NYI), O'Reilly (in Buffalo), Zetterberg,  and thats just our division. 

 

Backstrom does it for the Caps, Crosby for the Penguins, Toews for the Hawks, Kessler in Anaheim, and on and on throughout the league. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Commandant said:

The third line is the checking line is antiquated thinking. 

 

Most teams in the NHL are matching one of their top two centres against the other team's best line. 

 

they are rolling 3 offensive lines and a 4th line (energy unit). 

 

Just look around the league, who gets the tough matchup for their teams, its usually one of the top 2 Cs.  Bergeron, Barkov, Kadri (last year), Tavares (in NYI), O'Reilly (in Buffalo), Zetterberg,  and thats just our division. 

 

Backstrom does it for the Caps, Crosby for the Penguins, Toews for the Hawks, Kessler in Anaheim, and on and on throughout the league. 

 

 

Some teams are also leaving the idea that the fourth line is an energy/grind line and now putting skilled guys on it who are unpredictable/inconsistent so if they get hot you can move them up but it's better to keep them on the fourth line for surprise goals. 

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Some teams are also leaving the idea that the fourth line is an energy/grind line and now putting skilled guys on it who are unpredictable/inconsistent so if they get hot you can move them up but it's better to keep them on the fourth line for surprise goals. 

 

sure, and I like the movement. 

 

its not near as widespread as the third line though, which has the Checking line centre role virtually extinct. 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

sure, and I like the movement. 

 

its not near as widespread as the third line though, which has the Checking line centre role virtually extinct. 

 

Agreed. With the goons finally going extinct, coaches are realizing it's way better to have as much scoring opportunity up and down your lineup as possible, and that a guy who can't score isn't worth his salt. What's sad is they should have known this from the start.

 

Carbonneau was a 45-55pt centre back when that meant you were a bottom six forward, but he still often put around 20 goals and often finished in the top five in scoring for the club. I think Rick Meagher is one of the only Selke winners to have less than a half point per game performance. Him and Craig Ramsay (who was almost a thank you trophy). Everyone else were half point per game or put up superstar numbers like Fedorov, Yzerman, Kopitar, Brindamour, Bergeron, Datsyuk, Murray, Francis, Gilmour, and Clarke. What do those guys have in common? Top line players.

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