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Meller93

Is Weber’s injury the excuse Bergevin needed?

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In his time as GM, it wouldn’t be true to say Bergevin is a GM who is too afraid to make a ballsy move. Subban for Weber, Galchenyuk for Domi, signing Radulov - these are all risky (or stupid) to different degrees.

 

But the one thing he’s always beaten around the bush about is rebuilding; about the possibility of not making the playoffs. Teams like the rangers and leafs have in the past made it clear, they have entered full rebuild mode. Most of us seem to think that’s what Montreal needs, however I always felt Bergevin wasn’t able to commit to one. 

 

With the Weber injury, could Bergevin have a gold plated excuse to use this year as a rebuild year? Sell off assets, acquire youth speed and picks (Armia trade was a good one imo) and then start competing hard in the fall of 2019?

 

I will say I don’t want to follow the Oilers model, which includes no solid veteran presence to help the kids grow. I wouldn’t mind keeping Weber for a long time, same for Price. These are players who can teach our youth, and make them more confident on the ice. 

 

But really what I’m asking is about MB: Do you think Bergevin will continue to patch the team up and claw desperately into a playoff spot? Or do you think he now has that excuse to rebuild the team this year?

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Meller93 said:

In his time as GM, it wouldn’t be true to say Bergevin is a GM who is too afraid to make a ballsy move. Subban for Weber, Galchenyuk for Domi, signing Radulov - these are all risky (or stupid) to different degrees.

 

But the one thing he’s always beaten around the bush about is rebuilding; about the possibility of not making the playoffs. Teams like the rangers and leafs have in the past made it clear, they have entered full rebuild mode. Most of us seem to think that’s what Montreal needs, however I always felt Bergevin wasn’t able to commit to one. 

 

With the Weber injury, could Bergevin have a gold plated excuse to use this year as a rebuild year? Sell off assets, acquire youth speed and picks (Armia trade was a good one imo) and then start competing hard in the fall of 2019?

 

I will say I don’t want to follow the Oilers model, which includes no solid veteran presence to help the kids grow. I wouldn’t mind keeping Weber for a long time, same for Price. These are players who can teach our youth, and make them more confident on the ice. 

 

But really what I’m asking is about MB: Do you think Bergevin will continue to patch the team up and claw desperately into a playoff spot? Or do you think he now has that excuse to rebuild the team this year?

 

 

 

The problem is that Weber himself would be the primary veteran asset we could move in return for pieces that could really propel the rebuild. Since he's been injured for a full year, he can't be traded; and he'll probably need to play healthy and at a high level for a while before he becomes trade bait.

 

Shaw and Byron are injured as well. Neither would command a truly high-impact return anyway, but they can't be traded right now either.

 

I know people fantasize about trading Price, but I personally don't see it happening.

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31 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I know people fantasize about trading Price, but I personally don't see it happening.

 

Price moves when he wants to be moved, to the team he wants to goto, regardless of return. That's what happens when a guy gets an NMC with most of the contract in bonuses.

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8 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The problem is that Weber himself would be the primary veteran asset we could move in return for pieces that could really propel the rebuild. Since he's been injured for a full year, he can't be traded; and he'll probably need to play healthy and at a high level for a while before he becomes trade bait.

 

Shaw and Byron are injured as well. Neither would command a truly high-impact return anyway, but they can't be traded right now either.

 

I know people fantasize about trading Price, but I personally don't see it happening.

What about this years trade deadline ? I actually don’t expect Weber or Price to be traded under MB, but a solid 30-40 games by some of our other players like Byron Shaw and Pacioretty could make them appealing to other teams 

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If Bergevin trades Weber he admits that the Subban trade didn't work out and he was wrong to do it. His  ego wont allow that to happen. Only Way Weber gets traded is if Bergevin gets fired and the new GM rebuilds this team.

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1 hour ago, Metallica said:

If Bergevin trades Weber he admits that the Subban trade didn't work out and he was wrong to do it. His  ego wont allow that to happen. Only Way Weber gets traded is if Bergevin gets fired and the new GM rebuilds this team.

 

Likely quite right. Bergevin has managed by ego rather than by rational analysis so far, so why we expect any different now is quite unclear.

 

On the other hand, it's interesting to see the relatively positive vibes from many fans and media based on a promising-looking draft, some long-overdue cleaning up of the coaching staff, and talk of a "retool"-cum-rebuild. Based on this amnesiac willingness to overlook Bergevin's proven history of incompetence in favour of whatever hope he dangles for a better future, I think it's possible that Bergevin could sell a Weber trade in return for promising young/future assets, without really being held accountable for putting himself in that situation in the first place. But whether he realizes that or not is another question; as is whether he can even set aside his own ego long enough to understand the benefits of trading Weber.

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There are benefits of trading any player of such quality but it doesn’t mean you have to trade them. Context is everything in that one day people are saying we should keep Weber, and then the next it’s appareantly mainly Bergevin’s ego which would be the sole reason Weber wouldn’t be traded. Of course age was always a factor which was brought up about the trade, but Weber getting these specific injuries was sincerely out of Bergevin’s control. Yes, the Habs were bad last season (without Weber for most of the season) but people are forgetting how helpful Weber can be. 

 

I certainly hope we keep both Weber and Price, and would be happy if Pacioretty signed an extension with the Habs. Pacioretty makes the most sense to move, however.

 

As for the question at hand, I think it’s clear that Bergevin has not attempted to patch things up this off season but it’s still unclear what his expectations really are. I don’t personally think he thinks that making the playoffs is actually out of the realm of possibility. 

 

The trade deadline will be when the action falls depending on our place in the standings, and Weber will be back by then. 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Likely quite right. Bergevin has managed by ego rather than by rational analysis so far, so why we expect any different now is quite unclear.

 

On the other hand, it's interesting to see the relatively positive vibes from many fans and media based on a promising-looking draft, some long-overdue cleaning up of the coaching staff, and talk of a "retool"-cum-rebuild. Based on this amnesiac willingness to overlook Bergevin's proven history of incompetence in favour of whatever hope he dangles for a better future, I think it's possible that Bergevin could sell a Weber trade in return for promising young/future assets, without really being held accountable for putting himself in that situation in the first place. But whether he realizes that or not is another question; as is whether he can even set aside his own ego long enough to understand the benefits of trading Weber.

You can say the same about Price. The benefits of trading Price now could out way keeping him. If we trade Price and Weber we could get back big time young talent that we can speed up the rebuild and call it a retooling. But the longer we hold on to them the less we could get for them. 

 

 But Bergevin ego wont let him rebuild or even say the words rebuild. So as long as its a retooling theres no need to trade a Weber or a Price

 

But the funny thing is by holding onto a Weber and Price you can't fill team holes as fast, Because you would have to do it trough the draft. Which If you look at it is a rebuild not a retooling.

 

But if you trade a Weber and  a Price, the pieces you get back would fill the holes we have on this team. If you look at it that way its a retooling not rebuilding.

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16 minutes ago, Metallica said:

You can say the same about Price. The benefits of trading Price now could out way keeping him. If we trade Price and Weber we could get back big time young talent that we can speed up the rebuild and call it a retooling. But the longer we hold on to them the less we could get for them. 

 

 But Bergevin ego wont let him rebuild or even say the words rebuild. So as long as its a retooling theres no need to trade a Weber or a Price

 

But the funny thing is by holding onto a Weber and Price you can't fill team holes as fast, Because you would have to do it trough the draft. Which If you look at it is a rebuild not a retooling.

 

But if you trade a Weber and  a Price, the pieces you get back would fill the holes we have on this team. If you look at it that way its a retooling not rebuilding.

If you trade Weber and Price in order to fill  team needs, you create holes in other areas. Holes that could (arguably) never be filled. 

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15 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

If you trade Weber and Price in order to fill  team needs, you create holes in other areas. Holes that could (arguably) never be filled. 

Not if you're getting young talent back which you would be.

 

If you trade Price you ask for a young NHL ready goaltender as part of the package 

 

If you're trading Weber you're asking for a young NHL ready defenseman as part of the package.

 

This speeds up the rebuild/retool 

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This would make sense if Price and Weber were legitimate anchors on the team. 

 

With Weber and Price we know what we have. If we ask for an NHL ready goaltender as part of a package in return for Price, he’d better be a goaltender worthy of being a top 10-20 overall pick in a draft. 

 

While we’ve had perceived issues when it comes to a lack of a top line center (Gomez was for a year) on our team, there are teams like Philadelphia who have had trouble when it comes to finding a goaltender who can be a backbone of their team. For all the theories about how Price’s goaltending can be matched, Michael Leighton also didn’t bring a cup back to Philadelphia. They haven’t won a thing. Steve mason, at one point was a “young, NHL ready goaltender” and I believe he’s spent some time on Philadelphia in the recent past. 

 

Trading Price doesn’t speed anything positive up, in my opinion. It comes to mind that you’ve been annoyed with how having Price on the team has helped management sell our team as capable season after season and as a result perhaps you want him gone to hide that illusion. Either way you look at it, our team would at the very least be temporarily worse after having traded Price. To some, that may be a positive thing because we would “finally see” the holes in our lineup without Price masking them, but I don’t see it as a positive. 

 

In in any case, Price had a bad season last year. If he keeps up his less than stellar play, I may begin to question if he’s worth keeping around. His next contract starts this year though and he’s almost obviously not going anywhere this season. 

 

With Weber, we hear about Bergevin’s ego but let’s keep it simple and remember that he’s currently injured. People know what he brings, of course, but it’s hard to imagine a team who is attempting to be competitive trading for him while he’s out. At least for fair value. I loathe the thought of trading Weber, and it’s not simply because of him but it’s because of the state of our defense without him. We’re talking about a youthful defenseman coming back in a package, along with other things in return for Weber and we truly believe that we don’t have any other availabilities up for trade in order to acquire a youthful defensive prospect who may be NHL ready?

 

Let’s trade:

 

Lehkonen

Pacioretty

Gallagher 

Byron

Hudon

Shaw 

 

before we trade Weber or Price

 

As a matter of fact, let’s trade 

 

Petry

Alzner 

Benn 

Lernout

McCaron 

Drouin

Domi 

 

before we trade Weber or Price.

 

For any reason.

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1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

If you trade Weber and Price in order to fill  team needs, you create holes in other areas. Holes that could (arguably) never be filled. 

 

Has Montreal ever gone 10 years without a top goalie? Like, in the history of the team? I don't know, much like how Boston never worries about finding a star defenceman and Pittsburgh never worries about finding a star centre, I don't think I'll ever worry about not finding a top goalie. Plus Cayden Primeau so far looks like a real deal great young goalie. That hole might already be filled.

 

While we don't have a Weber calibre defenceman in our prospect pool, he will probably be 35 by the time this team starts trying for the playoffs again. Why keep him? Because it's harder for you to let him go?

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Price has a NMC. Weber doesn't. That's the most obvious reason for trading him before Price.

 

Of course, Price might be happy to get a crack elsewhere. But I really don't care to see the Habs trying to force the issue by doing what the Canucks did to Luongo. If Price wants to stay, let him stay, as the greatest Montreal Canadien of his era.

 

The return for goalies often seems surprisingly low anyway - especially ones with a monster contract.

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Has Montreal ever gone 10 years without a top goalie? Like, in the history of the team? I don't know, much like how Boston never worries about finding a star defenceman and Pittsburgh never worries about finding a star centre, I don't think I'll ever worry about not finding a top goalie. Plus Cayden Primeau so far looks like a real deal great young goalie. That hole might already be filled.

 

While we don't have a Weber calibre defenceman in our prospect pool, he will probably be 35 by the time this team starts trying for the playoffs again. Why keep him? Because it's harder for you to let him go?

Trading Weber would really depend on the return. I find myself once again in a quandary when it comes to discussing Pacioretty, Weber, etc. because people are saying we should trade them without realistically proposing a deal that makes sense for both teams. Weber is not untouchable, but facilitating a rebuild would not be my priority when it comes to trading him. I would want a more than NHL ready defenseman coming back, along with prospects/picks. If that’s not available? Quit thinking about moving him. 

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Price and Weber are very likely not being moved unless someone offers the Moon and the Stars for them, at least that's how I hope it goes down if they are in fact moved.

 

Besides, If Fleury and Rinne can backstop their teams deep in the playoffs at ages 33 and 34, so can Price. If Chara can anchor a D-Core in Boston's Cup run at age 37, so can Weber. Simply throwing away elite players who can still be a major help even at a certain age does not come without its own major drawbacks. More precisely, I am not on board with trading those guys unless the return is nothing short of excellent and very fair value for an elite player. Also, we have to consider that we may never draft, or trade for, a player like Price at the goalie position for a very long time, even if our past has smiled upon us, it is by no means an indication of our future in that position. Same can be said about Weber, there aren't many Weber's in this league, haven't been many Weber's in the league during the last 10 years, so to act like we just trade him for a prospect who will become the next Weber, or a pick that allows us to Draft the next Weber is quite a bit fool-hearted. It is anything but that simple, and trading them just for the sake of trading them to ensure you have burned the whole barn down could just as easily see us struggle to fill the very positions they were filling so adequately while they were here.

 

*Hint Hint* ...Koivu...

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Bergevin won't be our GM by the middle of December

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2 hours ago, l

I believe he still has 3 years left on his contract, probably paying about 2 mill per. I think the only reason he’s still around is because of that money, and would bet he sticks for the entirety of this season, and perhaps the one after. Weirder things have happened though 

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3 hours ago, l<OV4L3V said:

Bergevin won't be our GM by the middle of December

 

I can't see the Habs firing Bergevin two months into the season.  Notwithstanding the long-term contract, GM changes don't happen too often in-season as the people they may want to interview (like a certain Tampa assistant GM) aren't going to be made available until the summer.  That was part of the problem for Carolina after the new owner got rid of Francis - most of the top AGM candidates weren't even available to be interviewed (and then he lowballed the few that were).  The team also doesn't really have a legitimate in-house interim GM option either.  Besides, the Weber injury provides a bit of a crutch for things going badly at the start.  If a change is going to be made, it probably won't be until the offseason.

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We also have the Elliotte Freidmann report that Molson told Bergevin that he doesn't care if we miss the playoffs, as long as he stocks up on picks and prospects this year. 

 

Looking back, that report makes more sense as it came out the same time as the Weber surgery was actually being done. 

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Yeah Brisebois will try to get a ring and then explore his GM option of becoming the prodigal son returning to Montreal.

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Yeah Brisebois will try to get a ring and then explore his GM option of becoming the prodigal son returning to Montreal.

Could be just in time for MB’s dismissal, and potentially with some young talent in our prospect pool to boot to start off his tenure. 

 

I remember when Bergevin was first hired though I had this great feeling that since he was young he would be this progressive GM who was savvy at predicting where the game would progress,  and build it accordingly. He turned out to be a fairly strong old school type. I’m be more guarded over the Bouchards, Ducharmes and potential Brisebois’ because of it.

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33 minutes ago, Meller93 said:

Could be just in time for MB’s dismissal, and potentially with some young talent in our prospect pool to boot to start off his tenure. 

 

I remember when Bergevin was first hired though I had this great feeling that since he was young he would be this progressive GM who was savvy at predicting where the game would progress,  and build it accordingly. He turned out to be a fairly strong old school type. I’m be more guarded over the Bouchards, Ducharmes and potential Brisebois’ because of it.

 

I don't blame you. That said, Julien Brisebois got in the league very young, I think he was still in his 20s when he came to Montreal. He knows the team. He isn't known as Yzerman's right hand man (that's Verbeek) but he has been important to Tampa for years and works with their development and drafting. If you look at the Lightning, they draft quite well, and they are often developing undrafted or low drafted players. Brisebois plays a role in that.

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