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The Chicoutimi Cucumber

Why will you watch the 2018-19 Habs?

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Great players are going to succeed no matter who the coach is. 

 

It's the border line players( like the Galchenyuk's of the world) that need to put in specific positions to succeed.... 

 

That's when you see how good a coach is...(Gerard Gallant)

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35 minutes ago, Habopotamus said:

Great players are going to succeed no matter who the coach is. 

 

It's the border line players( like the Galchenyuk's of the world) that need to put in specific positions to succeed.... 

 

That's when you see how good a coach is...(Gerard Gallant)

 

Even Ovechkin's numbers dropped when Adam Oates moved him to the right wing and expected him to be something he wasn't. To the point where people were saying Ovechkin had peaked. He followed up three 30+ goal seasons with three 50+ goal seasons because he got used properly again.

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53 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Even Ovechkin's numbers dropped when Adam Oates moved him to the right wing and expected him to be something he wasn't. To the point where people were saying Ovechkin had peaked. He followed up three 30+ goal seasons with three 50+ goal seasons because he got used properly again.

48 32 24

56

 

78 51 28

79

 

Still solid numbers for a guy being bounced around positions. 

 

When I said "position to succeed" in my previous post, I was more referring to a coach giving players opportunities and the right line mates to succeed. 

 

 

 

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Your comparison was Galchenyuk, who has been top 3 in Habs scoring in the past 3 years despite coaches messing with him. Now he is traded to a team that doesn't have that baggage. We thought higher of him because we thought higher of this team. 

 

I don't know if he's the 70 point centre I thought he could become but he was a 51 point winger on one of the worst teams in the league playing his off position for a coach who had little to no confidence in him. I don't know if he needs the right coach but simply he doesn't need the wrong one.

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8 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Your comparison was Galchenyuk, who has been top 3 in Habs scoring in the past 3 years despite coaches messing with him. Now he is traded to a team that doesn't have that baggage. We thought higher of him because we thought higher of this team. 

 

I don't know if he's the 70 point centre I thought he could become but he was a 51 point winger on one of the worst teams in the league playing his off position for a coach who had little to no confidence in him. I don't know if he needs the right coach but simply he doesn't need the wrong one.

Well when a player like Galchenyuk is playing 4th line, he's not being put in a position to succeed. 

 

I feel like we're arguing about the same thing? 

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4 hours ago, Habopotamus said:

Great players are going to succeed no matter who the coach is. 

 

It's the border line players( like the Galchenyuk's of the world) that need to put in specific positions to succeed.... 

 

That's when you see how good a coach is...(Gerard Gallant)

Gallant was a difference maker in Galchenyuk's career?

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2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Your comparison was Galchenyuk, who has been top 3 in Habs scoring in the past 3 years despite coaches messing with him. Now he is traded to a team that doesn't have that baggage. We thought higher of him because we thought higher of this team. 

 

I don't know if he's the 70 point centre I thought he could become but he was a 51 point winger on one of the worst teams in the league playing his off position for a coach who had little to no confidence in him. I don't know if he needs the right coach but simply he doesn't need the wrong one.

I think Muller had some confidence in him and played him lots on the PP, think it was more that the player who just lacked the 'it' factor.

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10 minutes ago, DON said:

Gallant was a difference maker in Galchenyuk's career?

 

10 minutes ago, DON said:

Gallant was a difference maker in Galchenyuk's career?

 

He got the best out of a make shift team in Vegas 

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39 minutes ago, DON said:

I think Muller had some confidence in him and played him lots on the PP, think it was more that the player who just lacked the 'it' factor.

The “it” factor?? Have you bought into MB’s attitude crap?

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The jury remains 'out' on whether or not Galy is more than a decent one-dimensional winger - basically Martin Ruscinsky- or whether he can be a legit top-6 C. What I always wondered about was his hockey IQ. Then again, he was close to a PPG producer when used at C by the Habs. 

 

We're about to find out what he is, and it will be an important discovery. If the Habs threw away a legit top-6 C, that will be one more major act of utterly inexcusable negligence by a management group that should have been fired by now. If Galy remains Ruscinsky Redux, then hey, at least we got a more spirited 50-point W for him - potentially a minor upgrade, in 'jam' if not in production. 

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It's funny how, in the NHL, we question the hockey IQ of a player who refuses to dump & chase and tries to be creative with the puck but never question Aaron Asham's hockey IQ.

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28 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

It's funny how, in the NHL, we question the hockey IQ of a player who refuses to dump & chase and tries to be creative with the puck but never question Aaron Asham's hockey IQ.

 

Double standards abound, and they usually have to do with coaches over-emphasizing the things they can control ('system,' defensive play) and under-valuing the things they can't (sheer offensive creativity and talent). I've long grumbled about the way a a guy who does nothing  but consistently generate offence is attacked - even benched - for being 'one dimensional,' but a checker who is butt-useless in the offensive zone is hailed for his 'complete game.' :rolleyes:

 

In Galy's case, though, it wasn't just that he refused to dump and chase; what bothered me was his tendency to always try to make the individual play - i.e., trying to skate through three guys single-handedly, and all too often either losing the puck or ending up with a weak chance from the outside. He tended not to use the whole ice or use his teammates, and this made him less effective offensively than he could have been. He reminded me a bit of this Greek guy I used to play pick-up hockey with: he was a powerful skater, built like Tony Soprano, and had a boomer of a shot, but all he ever did was take the puck and try to go end to end with it. Didn't matter how little space he had or how much his teammates were open in perfect position. Boy, was that frustrating  :angry:

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37 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

It's funny how, in the NHL, we question the hockey IQ of a player who refuses to dump & chase and tries to be creative with the puck but never question Aaron Asham's hockey IQ.

 

That's cause for Aaron Asham, dumping and chasing is the correct play. 

 

He has hockey IQ. 

 

His deficiencies in talent are in many other areas though.  So who cares about hockey IQ in this case?

 

Hockey IQ is important but it also needs to be combined with other talents.  I could have all the hockey IQ in the world, i'm still not an NHL player.  A guy with skill though? making the right play is the difference between average and great. 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

That's cause for Aaron Asham, dumping and chasing is the correct play. 

 

He has hockey IQ. 

 

His deficiencies in talent are in many other areas though.  So who cares about hockey IQ in this case?

 

Hockey IQ is important but it also needs to be combined with other talents.  I could have all the hockey IQ in the world, i'm still not an NHL player.  A guy with skill though? making the right play is the difference between average and great. 

It's because, in their country, Russians don't consider dump and chase as the right play.  Never.

 

Galchenyuk made it clear on a RDS tv show called "Table d'hôtes".  He said that he would be benched by Russian coaches when he was younger everytime he would dump the puck and lose possession.  He said that he realized that the game was not the same when he came in NA, but that sometimes, it's still difficult for him to dump instead of trying the impossible to create something out of nothing.

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15 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

It's because, in their country, Russians don't consider dump and chase as the right play.  Never.

 

Galchenyuk made it clear on a RDS tv show called "Table d'hôtes".  He said that he would be benched by Russian coaches when he was younger everytime he would dump the puck and lose possession.  He said that he realized that the game was not the same when he came in NA, but that sometimes, it's still difficult for him to dump instead of trying the impossible to create something out of nothing.

 

Fair enough...but being able to adapt to different styles of play could also be considered an aspect of Hockey IQ. The guy has been in the league 6 years. He's a young veteran. I have no sympathy at all for the way the Habs jerked him around or perversely refused to use him at the position where he was most productive, and where they were not at all in a position to be choosy; but at the same time, there comes a point where excuses are irrelevant, and you are what you are. I hope he realizes that he's not likely to get a better shot to establish himself as more than Martin Ruscisnky than this season in Phoenix.

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43 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Dump and chase is garbage hockey.

 

I dont like it as a strategy.  But there are times when you dont have a play and it should be used.

 

When there is no play available (galchenyuk going one on three for example) or you dont have the skill to make a play (asham) its better to dump and chase then create a turnover and odd man rush.

 

Recognizing those times is part of hockey iq.

 

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Part of the problem is, IMO, that the Habs gathered a few players that were very pro-holding onto the puck and coaches who were pretty much against it.

Why draft (Galchenyuk) and aquire (Drouin) players that love to be creative and try fancy plays when you pertinently know that your coach won't like it ?

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When Aaron Asham turned the puck over, it was usually because he lacked skill. When Galchenyuk turns the puck over it's more often than not because of poor decision making. There are also goons who lack skill and have a low hockey IQ. I just don't particularly think Asham was one of those guys. 

 

I'm not personally attacking Galchenyuk's hockey IQ, but the Russian ice is much bigger than here in North America and so retrieving the puck after a dump in would be a little more difficult. Less chance to wear the defense down by getting the body on them deep which in turn leads to a relatively easy loss of possession. 

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14 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

Part of the problem is, IMO, that the Habs gathered a few players that were very pro-holding onto the puck and coaches who were pretty much against it.

Why draft (Galchenyuk) and aquire (Drouin) players that love to be creative and try fancy plays when you pertinently know that your coach won't like it ?

Whether I agree with it or not, this particular coaching staff wants players who can retrieve the puck from the dirty areas on every line. That leaves players like Gallagher and Lehkonen in the top 6. The players they are trying to retrieve the puck for are skilled based, less hard nosed players players like Drouin, Galchenyuk and even Pacioretty.

 

I thought Galchenyuk and Drouin have been treated differently from one another under Julien, so I'm not sure it's particularly that he doesn't like creative players. 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

I dont like it as a strategy.  But there are times when you dont have a play and it should be used.

 

When there is no play available (galchenyuk going one on three for example) or you dont have the skill to make a play (asham) its better to dump and chase then create a turnover and odd man rush.

 

Recognizing those times is part of hockey iq.

 

 

I wasn't talking about the times when a dump and chase works, I'm talking about dump and chase as a strategy. It's crap hockey.

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I'll watch them this year. Maybe not as fervently as I have in the past. I struggled through the late 90s and early Aughts, this is just a similar type of punishment for the upcoming year. I watched then, I'll watch now.

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