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Are the Canadiens above average under MB?


alfredoh2009

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Pacioretty was hurt in 2011. He was healthy and scored 30+ goals on 2012 before bergevin arrived.

 

But thats besides the point. 

 

Everything i mentionned was in the system.  Whether it was already drafted and in junior (gallagher), producing in the nhl (pacioretty) or a draft pick not even used (3rd overall).  Bergevin doesnt get credit for taking those pieces and making them into a good team.  Those pieces were already acquired before he was hired.

 

It doesnt matter who was on the bottom 6 in 2012 for a team playing out the string due to injury.  It matters what MB had at his disposal.

 

He did virtually nothing (added frankie bouillon, brandon prust and colby Armstrong) before the 2012-13 season and finished the year with a first place club.  He inherited the pieces of a good hockey team.  A potato could have been named the GM instead of bergevin and all those pieces that became the core of the team still wouldve been part of the organization in 2013.

 

What je did with that core is what o evaluate him on... and what did he do... added petry... a rental vanek... one year of briere, parenteau, semin, and then radulov... got byron... got danault... got some good 4th liners and bottom pair d.

 

Then traded subban for a guy 4 years older.  Traded chucky.  Replaced markov with alzner.  Didnt replace Radulov... let plekanec get old without a replacement... 

 

Watched the core get old while never adding a number 1 c.

 

 

Thats his track record.  Thats his contribution.

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The teams that were above league average... were built almost entirely out of the parts that gauthier and gainey left him.  They werent built by bergevin.

 

The roster is now turning over and what we see is that what he has built is much worse than the pieces he inherited.

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9 hours ago, Commandant said:

Pacioretty was hurt in 2011. He was healthy and scored 30+ goals on 2012 before bergevin arrived.

 

But thats besides the point. 

 

Everything i mentionned was in the system.  Whether it was already drafted and in junior (gallagher), producing in the nhl (pacioretty) or a draft pick not even used (3rd overall).  Bergevin doesnt get credit for taking those pieces and making them into a good team.  Those pieces were already acquired before he was hired.

 

It doesnt matter who was on the bottom 6 in 2012 for a team playing out the string due to injury.  It matters what MB had at his disposal.

 

He did virtually nothing (added frankie bouillon, brandon prust and colby Armstrong) before the 2012-13 season and finished the year with a first place club.  He inherited the pieces of a good hockey team.  A potato could have been named the GM instead of bergevin and all those pieces that became the core of the team still wouldve been part of the organization in 2013.

 

What je did with that core is what o evaluate him on... and what did he do... added petry... a rental vanek... one year of briere, parenteau, semin, and then radulov... got byron... got danault... got some good 4th liners and bottom pair d.

 

Then traded subban for a guy 4 years older.  Traded chucky.  Replaced markov with alzner.  Didnt replace Radulov... let plekanec get old without a replacement... 

 

Watched the core get old while never adding a number 1 c.

 

 

Thats his track record.  Thats his contribution.

A potato , ha ha ha!:lol:

 

i think I'll change my avatar in honor of great reply. 

 

Good points Commandant. But now, where do we go from here.

 

I don't want to root for a team that sucks eternally. And if the situation is as the haters say: that's what's coming:

- squandered talent

-inept desdtting

- innexistent development 

- and the sky has fallen 

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13 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I don't want to root for a team that sucks eternally. And if the situation is as the haters say: that's what's coming:

- squandered talent

-inept desdtting

- innexistent development 

- and the sky has fallen 

 

That's all happened already. Talent has been squandered, development has been non existent, and the sky has fallen. Not sure what the other one was.

 

When Bergevin is fired he isn't the only one that has to go. That front office will need to be cleaned out. Very few should remain.

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The only move Bergevin made that a potato couldn't was the Erik Cole for Ryder and a pick. That move probably cost Joe Nieuwendyk his job as GM of Dallas. It was moves like that which gave Marc a lot of rope with me originally. 

 

It also unfortunately created the revolving RW door of Cole to Ryder to Briere to Vanek to Parenteau to Semin to Radulov to nothing. But at the time? It was a fantastic move by a first time GM.

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2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

A potato , ha ha ha!:lol:

 

i think I'll change my avatar in honor of great reply. 

 

Good points Commandant. But now, where do we go from here.

 

I don't want to root for a team that sucks eternally. And if the situation is as the haters say: that's what's coming:

- squandered talent

-inept desdtting

- innexistent development 

- and the sky has fallen 

 

Like I've said a few times, there are two possible arguments for hope about the future.

 

1. MB will get fired once enough of his contract is spent. Molson is just counting pennies. Then we can hope he will be replaced by a quality GM.

 

2. MB has learned how to be a good GM after 6 years of abject failure.

 

Both are possible. I don't rule them out of court. But we have no evidence for either postulate. Maybe we can point to the 2018 draft as thin initial evidence in favour of (2). So these are 95% pure hope, not really grounded in a factual basis.

 

What is NOT  available to us is arguing that MB's track record offers reasons for optimism about the future. The evidence simply does not support that.

 

 

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evidence shows his team has performed above average and that it is trending down but at a lesser rate than a fourth (25%) of the league.

 

If Price is back to .920-Price, the team will hover at around average and we will have passionate discussions on this forum about what to do with the club.

 

I'll state my point this way: (1) if MB has been a non-factor on the performance of the CH for 7 years; and (2) there are no better GMs available that would be positively impactful: then (3) we focus on the team, the prospects and their development into a cup contending team instead of arguing about MB.

 

Go! Habs Go! :gohabsgo:

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14 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 we focus on the team, the prospects and their development into a cup contending team instead of arguing about MB.

Funny guy!:D

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19 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

evidence shows his team has performed above average and that it is trending down but at a lesser rate than a fourth (25%) of the league.

 

If Price is back to .920-Price, the team will hover at around average and we will have passionate discussions on this forum about what to do with the club.

 

I'll state my point this way: (1) if MB has been a non-factor on the performance of the CH for 7 years; and (2) there are no better GMs available that would be positively impactful: then (3) we focus on the team, the prospects and their development into a cup contending team instead of arguing about MB.

 

Go! Habs Go! :gohabsgo:

 

Premise (1) is obviously incorrect. Therein lies the problem.

 

(2): well, if there is no one better available, then there is a shocking dearth of managerial talent in major league hockey.

 

(3) we can do both. And will :)

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1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

If Price is back to .920-Price, the team will hover at around average and we will have passionate discussions on this forum about what to do with the club.

 

Then it is still a club relying on Price to carry them, and I don't want that team. I want a team that scores enough goals that if Price has a bad game it doesn't matter, we can outscore the opponent anyway.

 

Our last playoff series was two great goalies playing great and one allowed one more goal than the other and people blamed the goalie instead of the team that couldn't score. I don't want that to ever happen again.

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21 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Thanks Link67. I agree the statistics only show the past. But they clearly show that more than half the teams in the league have done worst and the bottom-feeders are not trending up anytime soon. 

 

The Canadiens are a disaster right now, a pileup of mistakes and misevaluations; but also of bad luck and player-underperformance that cannot be pinned on MB:

As a GM he has done better than Buffalo. Vancouver, Carolina, Edmonton, Arizona, Calgary, Colorado, Florida, New York Islanders, 

I wish he was doing as well as the Devils, Winnipeg and Philadelphia. But I would be more discouraged right now if my team would have suck for so long during these past 7 years 

 

Frankly, I’d take the roster if any of theirs bad t and you’ve listed.

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18 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Just figured out how to add a trend line to my spreadsheet, and according to the data (removed the top and bottom teams):

1) The CH is doing far better than Buffalo. Carolina, Edmonton, Arizona, Calgary, Colorado,

2) The CH is trending down, but at a lesser rate than: Florida, Vancouver, Dallas, New York Islanders, Detroit, Ottawa

3) To my surprise, the data indicated that New York Rangers and St-Louis are trending worse than the Canadiens.

 

That's based on this un-scientific analysis. We all know that some of these teams have done significant moves to improve.

 

I think I am done with this exercise. It was interesting to look at the numbers. It was like doing the horoscope :lol:

How are we doing far better than any of those teams you’ve listed???

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25 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

How are we doing far better than any of those teams you’ve listed???

I'll have to look into their context compared to the CH's so that I can give more details. But in essence: the have sucked during the season and whenever in the playoffs over the last 7 years 

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5 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I'll have to look into their context compared to the CH's so that I can give more details. But in essence: the have sucked during the season and whenever in the playoffs over the last 7 years 

Each of those teams has progressed. Our roster has gotten worse each year. I’d trade our team for any of those teams without even blinking.

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20 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I'll have to look into their context compared to the CH's so that I can give more details. But in essence: the have sucked during the season and whenever in the playoffs over the last 7 years 

 

7 years ago was 2011. The Bruins beat the Canucks in the Cup final. Galchenyuk wasn't drafted yet. Mike Cammalleri was still a playoff hero. The NHL only had two lockouts in their history.

 

It has no bearing on the past two seasons.

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39 minutes ago, Toronthab said:

If we want to drag Bergevin behind a bus for a week would we have to rent a bus or just apply with the transit authorities? 

Am sure you, 29 and Cucumber can come up with some masterplan. We have faith in you three.:popcorn:

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4 hours ago, Toronthab said:

If we want to drag Bergevin behind a bus for a week would we have to rent a bus or just apply with the transit authorities? 

 

Bergevin being dragged to death behind a bus.....that may be the happiest thought I've encountered all day.  Thank-you for that!  :D

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On 2018-08-30 at 10:13 AM, alfredoh2009 said:

I took on this challenge to show that the Canadiens are an above average team. My motivation is to eat away at the dull time before the new season starts. It seems to touch a nerve with some forum members, and I hope it provides some civil chatter.
 

In essence:

1) based on total points over the Marc Bergevin era, the Canadiens (652) are an above average (641.87) team

2) based on total points over the Marc Bergevin era, the Canadiens have been better than the average more times (4) than league (3.87)

 

Those numbers don't show much. They can be dismissed and argued very easily. So, I took my analysis a bit further and multiplied the total of points for each season by the playoff winning percentage. This is a number that may show teams that could elevate their play in the playoffs. To me this would separate elite teams from average...

3) based on factored playoff-performance, the Canadiens (821) are an above average (801.00) team

4) based on factored playoff-performance, the Canadiens (4) have been better than the average more times (4) than league (3.50). 

5) Here is a snapshot of the numbers with the "playoff-performace multiplier"

 

image.png

I have compiled my analysis here 2012-2018_Teams-performance.xlxs (its very basic)

 

That's the point I was trying to make.

 

I honesty  think this team is a blow average team under Bergevin with a above average goaltender. The record shows that we are above average in large part due to the play of Price. Take out Price and those numbers change big time to below average.

 

I have said this before that Bergevin hides behind Price, which is why this team will never improve.  They think that when Price is on top of his game he can hide the weakesness of the team.  When Price isnt on top of his game or injured well everyone can see our Ture team weakesness.

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I have never wished bodily harm to an adversary, I do not think we should let things boil over down that slippery slope.

 

Criticize =YES

Argue = YES

Wish Death = NO :rastapop:

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9 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I have never wished bodily harm to an adversary, I do not think we should let things boil over down that slippery slope.

 

Criticize =YES

Argue = YES

Wish Death = NO :rastapop:

 

I agree. I hope he loses his job but I have no wish to see him physically harmed.

 

 

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1 hour ago, sbhatt said:

 

Bergevin being dragged to death behind a bus.....that may be the happiest thought I've encountered all day.  Thank-you for that!  :D

UGGGG

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