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Max Pacioretty traded to Vegas

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2 hours ago, DON said:

Why Byron?

Schlemko and McCarron will get you nothing.

delarose and Benn might get a late pick, but so what.

Byron is at hos highest value now, it can only get lower. And he is complementary to the team. So he should fetch a nice return from a contender team.

 

Schlemko or McCarron could turn one of the two 4th round picks into a 3rd rounder. 

 

There is no more room for Delarose and he is taking up a space for when the prospects come up. DLR could fetch a late second. I much rather see Vejdemo or Suzuki instead 

 

I would keep one of Schlemko or Benn as a depth, healthy scratch, NHL backup

 

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10 minutes ago, PMAC said:

That may be true, but one of the reasons that the return was lower than it could have been were the circumstances that Bergevin created.

1

 

That could be part of it as well but what exactly did Bergevin do to create this specific situation?  He didn't deny media reports which falls in line with his usual no-comment policy on media reports.  It's not like he came out and said that we're not keeping Pacioretty under any circumstances and he's a bad leader and a bad teammate and we just want to get rid of him at all costs.  Even at the end-of-season presser, he didn't say anything all that significant about Pacioretty when asked if he'd sign him to an extension, just some non-committal jibber jabber.

 

This whole fiasco largely started by reports from the media (what was it, December when this first came out?) and then was further fueled by the report from The Athletic a while back.  Then Allan Walsh stepped in and made it a gong show as he often does.  In those situations, a GM can't do much to diffuse it.  He can't say they're not shopping him at that point, nor can he say they're talking about an extension...it's not as if anyone would have believed him anyway.

 

Yes, Bergevin is to blame for the current situation for the team as he's the one that built this.  Beyond that, I don't think he really messed up in the handling of this case.  He stayed quiet and declined to comment on media speculation which is what most managers would do in that situation.

 

In terms of the timing of the trade, I think that if there was a better deal on the table back at the deadline, he'd have taken it.  It's pretty clear that he was targeting young centre help (based on some of the previously reported asking prices) and in Suzuki, he finally found a taker willing to part with a future top-six C.

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8 minutes ago, PMAC said:

 

That may be true, but one of the reasons that the return was lower than it could have been were the circumstances that Bergevin created.

 

It's so easy to blame Bergevin for these "circumstances."

Pacs likely asked for a trade last season (I believe Molson).

Pacs was the guy usually scoring 30 and not managing to get to 20. He lowered his return. Then Bergevin moves him to LA and Pacs nixes that deal.

Lots happen behind closed doors that we will never know about. Given the "circumstances", Bergevin did very well here. Suzuki is a better prospect than you think.

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18 hours ago, l<OV4L3V said:


Petry has to be added to this equation? 

 

Sure, include him too

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Vegas GM George McPhee about the trade process:

 

Quote

"It took a couple of months. I think it started right after the Draft. It's ongoing. Sometimes a lot of talk, sometimes quiet. Things picked up in the last three/four days. We were getting to a place Sunday morning where we thought the deal was possible and then we had a window of six or seven hours to agree to an extension with Max. We had till about 7:00 pm PT last night to get a deal done with the player because this trade wasn't going to happen if we didn't have an extension," explained McPhee "Montreal was reluctant to do that, but finally gave us the opportunity to talk to him because there had been at least one deal prior to this one that didn't work out. Montreal had a deal with a club but the contract didn't work out. But Marc Bergevin gave us the opportunity to talk to the player and his agent. It took a while, to about one minute before 7:00 pm PT and we got it done. So, there were a lot of things. Once you agree in principle to get done, structure and so on, it takes quite a while. That's how this came together."

 

https://www.nhl.com/goldenknights/news/pacioretty-deal-a-result-of-mcphees-creativity/c-300041998

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2 hours ago, dlbalr said:

Montreal has now traded away all 3 arguably franchise making  players from one draft - probably their best draft since the 80’s.  McDonough, Subban and Pacioretty.  Good teams don’t make stupid mistakes like that.  These three along with Price should have been part of a contending core while still in their prime today.  Now 11 years later we are rebuilding pretty much from scratch - despite the narrative that that idiot Bergevin wants to spin.

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MB has made some big misstakes but I dont think this trade is one of them...

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4 hours ago, Dalhabs said:

MB has made some big misstakes but I dont think this trade is one of them...

No, PACs had to be traded because of what MB turned the team into.  It’s kust sad the habs squandered a dam good core that should be in its prime because of utter incompetence and stupidity.

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Patches trade aligns with my theory that MB realized the core he inherited was not going to elevate in the playoffs, tried boosting the core with a few goons to help them "play bigger" and that didn't work; and now he has completed a hearth transplant.

Call it incompetence, since this year's record will show regression ad support that view . But in a couple of years, if the new core is developed right (that's the big "IF"), it should be a better team than what he inherited.

 

 

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2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Patches trade aligns with my theory that MB realized the core he inherited was not going to elevate in the playoffs, tried boosting the core with a few goons to help them "play bigger" and that didn't work; and now he has completed a hearth transplant.

Call it incompetence, since this year's record will show regression ad support that view . But in a couple of years, if the new core is developed right (that's the big "IF"), it should be a better team than what he inherited.

 

 

 

If the GM has a core that comes within two games of the Finals, it's HIS job to elevate that core, not blow it up. 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

If the GM has a core that comes within two games of the Finals, it's HIS job to elevate that core, not blow it up. 

 

It was Bergevin who decided to stand still in the summer of 2014 after his team got to the ECF. It was Bergevin who decided to stand still in the summer of 2015 after his team had the second best record in the league. He could have added a centre. He could have added a real 1RW. He could have fired Therrien for a better coach. Instead he did nothing until 2016, when his big decision was to subtract Subban and add Weber. 

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All I know is that Michel Therrien had a .567 points percentage with the Montreal Canadiens whereas Julien has something like a .515. I’m not convinced that with our unfortunate French speaking prerequisite for the head coach, it’s so obvious that we could have easily hired a better coach. Guy Boucher sure isn’t doing much with the Sens at this point in time and someone like Gallant? Well, we’ll see how his longevity holds up and we didn’t hire him anyway. 

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

It was Bergevin who decided to stand still in the summer of 2014 after his team got to the ECF. It was Bergevin who decided to stand still in the summer of 2015 after his team had the second best record in the league. He could have added a centre. He could have added a real 1RW. He could have fired Therrien for a better coach. Instead he did nothing until 2016, when his big decision was to subtract Subban and add Weber. 

Didn't he add Petry in March 2015? 

 

It is obvious MB was convinced the Subban for Weber trade was needed and Molson has backed him and through out the last couple of years. They must agree that a blow-up of the team was needed and that the current rebuild around Price and Weber is the best road to take.

 

That's why I am leaning towards a "hearth transplant" analogy. I can reason it and defend it... but of course I will never know for sure.

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If Pacioretty asked to be traded, that would mean that their pillars (Price-Weber-Pacioretty) was not as solid as they though, and it would set them back on their reset/rebuild.

If I was the GM, I would look at rebuilding while dancing around the next expansion draft. Ideally taking advantage of other teams that will be more affected than the Canadiens. 

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3 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

It was Bergevin who decided to stand still in the summer of 2014 after his team got to the ECF. It was Bergevin who decided to stand still in the summer of 2015 after his team had the second best record in the league. He could have added a centre. He could have added a real 1RW. He could have fired Therrien for a better coach. Instead he did nothing until 2016, when his big decision was to subtract Subban and add Weber. 

 

What? How can you possibly know what Bergevin tried to do? That's the problem with fans, act on little to no information. We have no way to know what trades or free agent signing Bergevin tried to make in 2014 or 2015. Is it his fault if players turn down Montreal for warmer climates or lesser taxes?

 

Who were the top free agents in 2014? Stastny? Spezza? Richards? Vanek? Please tell me what (and if) Bergevin offered them. Less money? Less term? Oh, you don't know.

What about 2015? Green? Fisher? Please, tell me what MB didn't do? Not enough signing bonus? Oh, you don't know.

 

Team makes it to ECF. Team has 2nd best record in league. You angry coach didn't get fired. Ahh, makes sense.

 

The fact is, as fans, we opinionate with very little information. What if Stastny turned down millions more from Montreal? What if MB offered the moon in a trade and the other team simply said no.

 

I'm not a MB fan, and I dreaded yesterday when JB took the Tampa job because I figured he'd be the next guy for Montreal. But people really need to stop blaming him for what he didn't do.

People also fail to credit decent moves by him.. picking up Byron for nothing. The Danault trade. Diaz for Weise. The Vanek trade.

The Drouin trade? The Weber trade? Sure, beat it to death. Free Agency 2014.. give it a rest.

 

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25 minutes ago, TheDriveFor25 said:

 

What? How can you possibly know what Bergevin tried to do?

 

Because he didn't do anything. The proof is history.

 

I don't care how hard you tried. You didn't get it done. We don't gauge GMs on intent. He did not get a centre when the team was a contender. He was content with Desharnais. That's the history of it. End of story.

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On 2018-09-11 at 1:39 PM, alfredoh2009 said:

Byron is at hos highest value now, it can only get lower. And he is complementary to the team. So he should fetch a nice return from a contender team.

 

Schlemko or McCarron could turn one of the two 4th round picks into a 3rd rounder. 

 

There is no more room for Delarose and he is taking up a space for when the prospects come up. DLR could fetch a late second. I much rather see Vejdemo or Suzuki instead 

 

I would keep one of Schlemko or Benn as a depth, healthy scratch, NHL backup

 

Wow you're really over valuing these players.

 

Byron is coming off a leg injury, I would say he is worth a 3rd round pick at best. This is a deep draft year so teams wont be giving away there top 3 picks.

 

Schlemko and McCarron no way anyone GM gives you a 3rd round pick for these guys. They're worth a7th or 6th at best. Only gm that would give you a 3rd round pick for one of these guys is Bergevin himself.

 

As for Rose again now way you get a 2nd round pick for him. Maybe a 4th.

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1 hour ago, TheDriveFor25 said:

 

What? How can you possibly know what Bergevin tried to do? That's the problem with fans, act on little to no information. We have no way to know what trades or free agent signing Bergevin tried to make in 2014 or 2015. Is it his fault if players turn down Montreal for warmer climates or lesser taxes?

 

Who were the top free agents in 2014? Stastny? Spezza? Richards? Vanek? Please tell me what (and if) Bergevin offered them. Less money? Less term? Oh, you don't know.

What about 2015? Green? Fisher? Please, tell me what MB didn't do? Not enough signing bonus? Oh, you don't know.

 

Team makes it to ECF. Team has 2nd best record in league. You angry coach didn't get fired. Ahh, makes sense.

 

The fact is, as fans, we opinionate with very little information. What if Stastny turned down millions more from Montreal? What if MB offered the moon in a trade and the other team simply said no.

 

I'm not a MB fan, and I dreaded yesterday when JB took the Tampa job because I figured he'd be the next guy for Montreal. But people really need to stop blaming him for what he didn't do.

People also fail to credit decent moves by him.. picking up Byron for nothing. The Danault trade. Diaz for Weise. The Vanek trade.

The Drouin trade? The Weber trade? Sure, beat it to death. Free Agency 2014.. give it a rest.

 

So what about all the trade deadlines when Beregvin did NOTHING. 

 

Adding guys like Dwight King and  Steve OTT, when this team was absolutely starved for goals all season...

 

Or letting the team rot from the inside out when Price went down with a knee injury for the season.

 

I mean, this team had a solid core of young players, that were robbed by a g.m who wasn't competent enough to put the cherry on the cake. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, TheDriveFor25 said:

 

What? How can you possibly know what Bergevin tried to do? 

 

 

 

This isn't the "try league" this is the "get it done" league. If you can't get it done, eventually they're going to find people who can" 

Bergevin failed to improve the team, he failed to get a centre when it was clear this team was a centre away from being a legit threat at the cup. I don't care what he tried, his job was to get it done.
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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

This isn't the "try league" this is the "get it done" league. If you can't get it done, eventually they're going to find people who can" 

Bergevin failed to improve the team, he failed to get a centre when it was clear this team was a centre away from being a legit threat at the cup. I don't care what he tried, his job was to get it done.

Tell that to Vancouver, St Louis, Buffalo, Toronto, Ottawa, San Jose, etc...

Sounds pretty simple though.

 

28th place team was 1 centre from a Cup, too funny...must be happy hour where you are and you are imbibing a bit too much today.

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47 minutes ago, DON said:

Tell that to Vancouver, St Louis, Buffalo, Toronto, Ottawa, San Jose, etc...

Sounds pretty simple though.

 

28th place team was 1 centre from a Cup, too funny...must be happy hour where you are and you are imbibing a bit too much today.

 

They weren't a 28th place team in 2014, they were 2 wins away from a Cup final. 

 

It was obvious then, when David Desharnais was the first line centre, what was needed. 

 

He didn't get it done and the team has aged and the window closed in the mean time. 

 

Seems to me that Buffalo found a #1 centre, heck they might have 2 of them now. 

Toronto has 2

Ottawa made their deal to get a top centre. 

San Jose has had Couture, Thornton and Pavelski. 

St. Louis is deep down the middle now. 

Vancouver is hoping Elias Pettersson is going to be a number 1. 

 

 

Those teams weren't starting with  what Bergevin was given in 2012

 

- A top veteran defenceman in Markov

- a young kid who would win the Norris Trophy. 

- a winger who just had his first of 5, 30 goal seasons. 

- A reliable 2-way centre in his prime, in Plekanec.

- a captain who could still score 20. 

- an ageing LW who just had 35 goals.

- a young goalie on the cusp of being the top goalie in the league. 

- A rookie RW who would become a consistent goal scoring threat

- the #3 overall pick, two second rounders in 2012, and his first, plus two more second rounders in 2013. 

- a young Centre who would become a strong number 3, even good enough to be the number 3 on a cup winning squad.


Ray Charles could see that we needed a centre when Bergevin came on board.  And I don't care what Bergevin tried, he didn't Get It Done.

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This discussion is ridiculous. Now we're being told that the 2014 or 2015 teams were "28th overall teams" - a bizarre conflation of basic realities in order to save some kind of pathetic and desperate narrative that MB is a good GM.

 

How about this. HE TURNED A TEAM THAT CAME WITHIN TWO GAMES OF THE FINALS (2014) AND FINISHED 2ND OVERALL (2015) into the living hunk of festering shit you see today.

 

That's what his incredible leadership has brought us.

 

He DID have a team on the cusp of true contention. The results proved this. Its key core pieces (all inherited) were young. Pleks and Markov were aging and anyone could see they would need replacing within 2-3 years.

 

HE dismantled it for no reason that survives rational scrutiny.  HE failed to add to the good core that was there. HE failed to plan to replace the aging veterans that obviously needed replacing. His big "solution" (trading Subban) solved ZERO actual problems and made the team older and worse.

 

This team is garbage right now for one reason and one reason only: Marc Bergevin. In the hands of a competent GM, the Subban/Patches/Price core would be in the middle of its prime Cup window. Right frigging now.

 

Has he learned from his mistakes and is now building a team properly? Hey, the next few years will tell that tale. But wheezing on about how the team was always bad, or how finishing 28th was all part of his genius master plan, is simply preposterous.

 

 

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4 hours ago, DON said:

Tell that to Vancouver, St Louis, Buffalo, Toronto, Ottawa, San Jose, etc...

Sounds pretty simple though.

 

28th place team was 1 centre from a Cup, too funny...must be happy hour where you are and you are imbibing a bit too much today.

 

Jesus Christ...do your arms get tired from working those pom-poms as you play cheerleader for Bergevin?

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6 hours ago, Metallica said:

Wow you're really over valuing these players.

 

Byron is coming off a leg injury, I would say he is worth a 3rd round pick at best. This is a deep draft year so teams wont be giving away there top 3 picks.

 

Schlemko and McCarron no way anyone GM gives you a 3rd round pick for these guys. They're worth a7th or 6th at best. Only gm that would give you a 3rd round pick for one of these guys is Bergevin himself.

 

As for Rose again now way you get a 2nd round pick for him. Maybe a 4th.

Metallica, I think you are right. I checked on Byron for example (who is coming off a shoulder injury)

He was a 2007 6th-rounder and has outperformed in PPG:

Sam Gagner, Zach Hamill, Lars Eller, Colton Gillies, Alexei Cherepanov, Logan MacMillan, Angelo Esposito, Riley Nash, Patrick White, Jim O'Brien . Just to name the first rounders form his draft year.

 

He has done well in the last few years and may bring back a good return; but maybe not a 3rd.

 

We got Shinkaruk for Rychel, which made me optimistic about McCarron and Delarose. But I did another spot check for similar player traded and you may be right.

 

But I would still look to trade these players for 2019 draft picks:

*) Byron,

*) McCarron and the 4th-round pick for a 3rd rounder. 

*) Delarose who is a young 4rth-liner who can be a a 3rd-liner LW: for a late 2nd or a 3rd.

*) I would trade one of Schlemko or Benn for a 4th or 5th and keep the other as a 7th D

 

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9 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Metallica, I think you are right. I checked on Byron for example (who is coming off a shoulder injury)

He was a 2007 6th-rounder and has outperformed in PPG:

Sam Gagner, Zach Hamill, Lars Eller, Colton Gillies, Alexei Cherepanov, Logan MacMillan, Angelo Esposito, Riley Nash, Patrick White, Jim O'Brien . Just to name the first rounders form his draft year.

 

He has done well in the last few years and may bring back a good return; but maybe not a 3rd.

 

 

 

Dude...

 

:(

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