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2018 Training Camp Thread


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16 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

I had been saying that for years but people act like the difference between a 25th overall pick and a 34th overall pick is a franchise forward and a bottom six grinder.

 

The McCarron pick was too early, DLR was bad draft philosophy (you don't take the guy who has trouble scoring with good defensive IQ in the top 50), and Fucale was a goalie gamble. Crisp was a terrible selection based on a single mythological story. Lehkonen was a solid pick, Andrighetto, and Reway were acceptable picks. Gregoire was a late pick. 

 

I care less about hindsight drafting and more what the draft philosophy was at the time. And in 2013 we felt pushed around by Ottawa, not needing D due to Tinordi and Beaulieu, and after Price was shaky in 2013 they wanted a just in case high goalie pick. Timmins draft philosophy that year was weak.

 

Timmins or Bergevin's philosophy?

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9 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Timmins or Bergevin's philosophy?

 

Same Timmins who drafted Fischer, Tinordi, O'Byrne, Conboy, and Thrower among others.

 

Are we gonna claim GM on every bad pick he makes? We have reports of the GM wanting a guy and Timmins not taking him, like Galchenyuk instead of Reilly. But hey, let's keep the mythology of Timmins going?

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6 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Same Timmins who drafted Fischer, Tinordi, O'Byrne, Conboy, and Thrower among others.

 

Are we gonna claim GM on every bad pick he makes? We have reports of the GM wanting a guy and Timmins not taking him, like Galchenyuk instead of Reilly. But hey, let's keep the mythology of Timmins going?

Is no myth, Timmins has done well overall.

 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Looking at the list, Lehkonen is arguably the best player drafted after Theodore in the 1st/2nd rounds. And if we'd drafted him in McCarron's slot, and McCarron in Lehkonen's slot at at 55, everyone would be saying that was a good draft for us. (When you see that DLR - who I have no time for, really - is one of the best players in that 2nd round crop, you realize the mediocrity of what we're talking about!) So, if it makes people feel better, pretend that Lehkonen was picked at 25 instead of 55. Problem solved.

1

 

Even flipping those spots wouldn't change much from the draft.  Lehkonen being the top player from a draft class that had three picks in the top 36 isn't good, no matter what order it's arranged.

 

A side note, I regraded Montreal's 2013 draft class earlier this summer.  The results aren't pretty. http://www.habsworld.net/2018/07/regrading-montreals-2013-draft-class/

 

Side note #2: Connor Crisp (their third-rounder from this class) retired on Monday.

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Same Timmins who drafted Fischer, Tinordi, O'Byrne, Conboy, and Thrower among others.

 

Are we gonna claim GM on every bad pick he makes? We have reports of the GM wanting a guy and Timmins not taking him, like Galchenyuk instead of Reilly. But hey, let's keep the mythology of Timmins going?

We going to believe the words of a gm who throws everyone under the bus to make himself look good?

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Same Timmins who drafted Fischer, Tinordi, O'Byrne, Conboy, and Thrower among others.

 

Are we gonna claim GM on every bad pick he makes? We have reports of the GM wanting a guy and Timmins not taking him, like Galchenyuk instead of Reilly. But hey, let's keep the mythology of Timmins going?

 

We also have reports of the GM telling Timmins to draft a defenceman with the Juulsen pick.  Bergevin has gotten involved in other scenarios too.

 

I think its a question worth asking as to whose philosophy that was. 

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57 minutes ago, Chris said:

If you consider the Habs being 30th in the league over the past 10 years in drafted players on the roster, then yes, he is doing well. 

 

You can't go by "drafted players on the roster" when Timmins has nothing to do with trading Subban, Pacioretty, McDonagh, Sergachev, etc.... Players he drafted were traded away, is that his issue?

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23 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

You can't go by "drafted players on the roster" when Timmins has nothing to do with trading Subban, Pacioretty, McDonagh, Sergachev, etc.... Players he drafted were traded away, is that his issue?

The issue with drafting is we don't draft best available player to fill our holes. We draft players that don't fill holes. Thats why for the last 20+ years we haven't had a number one center.

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31 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

We also have reports of the GM telling Timmins to draft a defenceman with the Juulsen pick.  Bergevin has gotten involved in other scenarios too.

 

I think its a question worth asking as to whose philosophy that was. 

 

Which was the right decision looking at that pick, unless you think he was going to take Aho (which after drafting Scherbak the year prior and Timmins in interviews admitting they look at positional needs just as much as BPA I highly doubt) but it has seemed to be historically true that Timmins and now Churla get to pretty much operate on their own with only input from the GM.

 

It is just comical to me that Timmins is mostly celebrated for the 2007 draft and otherwise has a mediocre first round pick record overall, and anytime you point out his mistakes, oh that must have been Gainey or Gauthier or Bergevin. Meanwhile none of those guys will ever get credit for the good picks, not even Gainey who was given the choice of Marc Staal and Carey Price by Timmins and took Carey. It's always look at the great job Timmins has done... except when he hasn't, which must have not been him.

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11 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Which was the right decision looking at that pick, unless you think he was going to take Aho (which after drafting Scherbak the year prior and Timmins in interviews admitting they look at positional needs just as much as BPA I highly doubt) but it has seemed to be historically true that Timmins and now Churla get to pretty much operate on their own with only input from the GM.

 

It is just comical to me that Timmins is mostly celebrated for the 2007 draft and otherwise has a mediocre first round pick record overall, and anytime you point out his mistakes, oh that must have been Gainey or Gauthier or Bergevin. Meanwhile none of those guys will ever get credit for the good picks, not even Gainey who was given the choice of Marc Staal and Carey Price by Timmins and took Carey. It's always look at the great job Timmins has done... except when he hasn't, which must have not been him.

 

If Sergachev, McDonagh, and Subban had remained in the organization, we'd be talking about him as a genius at drafting defencemen. Give him that much.

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Yesterday at practice this is what the lines looked like. The more I look at it I really don't think we are that bad off this year. I would like to see Ouellet fill in for Benn or Schlemko.

 

Tatar - Danault - Gallagher
Drouin - Domi - Armia
Byron Kotkaniemi - Lehkonen
Hudon - Plekanec - Scherbak
Agostino - de la Rose - Chaput

Mete - Juulsen
Reilly - Petry
Benn - Schlemko
Alzner - Despres
Ouellet

Price
Niemi
Lindgren

Edited by Alpine
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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

If Sergachev, McDonagh, and Subban had remained in the organization, we'd be talking about him as a genius at drafting defencemen. Give him that much.

 

I don't take away his good picks nor do I act like everything has to be a winner. But he has been at this for 15 years. He has had a lot of disappointment first round selections. He used to pick college players to have their rights longer but that didn't mean he got the best players. His record at centre for the first decade is straight up atrocious and a big reason why we struggle down the middle is the lack of quality centres drafted in our system. Since 2003 the best right wingers he has drafted have been a 5th round pick gem and his first ever first round pick in 2003. But hey get a load of the defencemen and left wingers and goalies!

 

I review the good and the bad. Too many try to blame the bad on the GM. They can't just say we got a flawed draft master. And yeah I want him out because again, after 15 years, I don't feel like we got a guy who cannot be replaced. That isn't to say he hasn't done a great job at times or that he didn't have a legendary draft in 2007. I just don't believe that his 15 years is so good we can't move on.

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34 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

I don't take away his good picks nor do I act like everything has to be a winner. But he has been at this for 15 years. He has had a lot of disappointment first round selections. He used to pick college players to have their rights longer but that didn't mean he got the best players. His record at centre for the first decade is straight up atrocious and a big reason why we struggle down the middle is the lack of quality centres drafted in our system. Since 2003 the best right wingers he has drafted have been a 5th round pick gem and his first ever first round pick in 2003. But hey get a load of the defencemen and left wingers and goalies!

 

I review the good and the bad. Too many try to blame the bad on the GM. They can't just say we got a flawed draft master. And yeah I want him out because again, after 15 years, I don't feel like we got a guy who cannot be replaced. That isn't to say he hasn't done a great job at times or that he didn't have a legendary draft in 2007. I just don't believe that his 15 years is so good we can't move on.

What do you make of all the draft picks traded by Gauthier and by MB at the begin if of his tenure?

Timmons has performed well when he has had a full hand of drafts to pick 

 

 

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That defense is awful, slow footed and cant move the puck. 

 

They will spend the entire night in there own end. 

 

Bottom 3 in the league, no doubt. Hopefully they will get lucky and land the #1 pick

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1 hour ago, Alpine said:

Yesterday at practice this is what the lines looked like. The more I look at it I really don't think we are that bad off this year. I would like to see Ouellet fill in for Benn or Schlemko.

 

Tatar - Danault - Gallagher
Drouin - Domi - Armia
Byron Kotkaniemi - Lehkonen
Hudon - Plekanec - Scherbak
Agostino - de la Rose - Chaput

Mete - Juulsen
Reilly - Petry
Benn - Schlemko
Alzner - Despres
Ouellet

Price
Niemi
Lindgren

Maybe should cut back on the herb if you think this is a winning roster.

Still missing 3 top 4 d-men, maybe 2 top six centres and have zero all-star players, aside from Price.

Basically 2 rookie d-men in top four, also not a recipe for short term success.

USA today predicted 28th place again and likely wont be far off that....so lets hope Despres makes team and then between Alzner-Benn-Despres Price will be hung out to dry often and then even a Hasek in his prime couldn't win with this d-core.

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First to talk about our D Weber will be back. Petry played strong near the end of last season. Mete is moving the puck better this year Oullett can fire the puck. No way they finish bottom 3 if Price gets back to his old form. Domi brings that grit the team didn't have with Galchenyuk and Patches. Tatar has something to prove this year. Zero all-stars is correct but in 93 who was the all-star? How many all-stars did Vegas have last year? I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

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2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

What do you make of all the draft picks traded by Gauthier and by MB at the begin if of his tenure?

Timmons has performed well when he has had a full hand of drafts to pick 

 

I only focus on the picks he made. It would be unfair to criticize him for things he had nothing to do with. The exception being Jarred Tinordi, who they gave up a 2nd to move up and select. I doubt that was Gainey doing it all on his own while Timmins screamed and threatened to quit if it happened. He wanted Tinordi and likely suggested it was better to select him than what was available with our first and second. 

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