Jump to content

Philadelphia vs Montreal 7:00pm


Habopotamus

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Oh, so this team is a top-tier heavy-duty contender like TB? Glad to hear it ^_^

 

Surely you can comprehend the counter point we made that a team doesn't necessarily need top end scoring to be successful. Our top forward is 41st in scoring which isn't good enough in your opinion, but I provided an example where a Cup winner had the 39th overall scorer. You also insinuated that our back end is old, but yet that same cup winner had even older key players. And your reply is sarcasm and an emoji? Okay

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, illWill said:

 

Surely you can comprehend the counter point we made that a team doesn't necessarily need top end scoring to be successful. Our top forward is 41st in scoring which isn't good enough in your opinion, but I provided an example where a Cup winner had the 39th overall scorer. You also insinuated that our back end is old, but yet that same cup winner had even older key players. And your reply is sarcasm and an emoji? Okay

 

Actually, you're right - in fact my post contradicted my general belief that teams can win without real stars, by rolling three balanced lines, depth, goaltending, etc.. Although it occurs to me that I've never really cross-referenced that belief against empirical evidence. The Bruins are one example of a club that did it; I don't know how many other recent examples leap to mind. (Vegas and the Rags made the finals on that model; maybe that's 'proof').

 

And in fact, while it would be nice to have some players higher than 41st overall in scoring, I'd be tolerably happy going into the playoffs with this exact FW roster if Kotkaniemi was a bit stronger and had more experience. The principal reason this team is not at least a semi-serious contender is that it's about two blueliners short of a really good top-4. Still, it would be helpful to have another FW or two approaching Domi's offensive totals. Even granting that you can win with depth rather than top-end talent, I'm still not sure that we have quite the depth of talent we need up front in order to pull that off.  If K-man progresses, that will make a significant difference (all else staying equal, which it never does; e.g., by the time Kotkaniemi is putting up 50+ points per season Byron will probably have disintegrated). A pity Lehkonen does not seem to have the 'next gear' that we all anticipated a couple of years back.

 

Anyway, I hope this post offers you more serious insight than the one that disappointed you earlier. Just to sum up: we need major upgrades at D and less serious but still meaningful upgrades at FW in order to approach the Bruins 2011 class. Or so I'd speculate.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Oh, so this team is a top-tier heavy-duty contender like TB? Glad to hear it ^_^

 

If they have three very good lines it could make up for not having an elite talent

 

That still requires KK to get to very good and guys like Suzuki and Poehling to grow into at least 2nd line level of talent.  Line 3 has to be more like Line 2b than a third line in this scenario

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Actually, you're right - in fact my post contradicted my general belief that teams can win without real stars, by rolling three balanced lines, depth, goaltending, etc.. Although it occurs to me that I've never really cross-referenced that belief against empirical evidence. The Bruins are one example of a club that did it; I don't know how many other recent examples leap to mind. (Vegas and the Rags made the finals on that model; maybe that's 'proof').

 

And in fact, while it would be nice to have some players higher than 41st overall in scoring, I'd be tolerably happy going into the playoffs with this exact FW roster if Kotkaniemi was a bit stronger and had more experience. The principal reason this team is not at least a semi-serious contender is that it's about two blueliners short of a really good top-4. Still, it would be helpful to have another FW or two approaching Domi's offensive totals. Even granting that you can win with depth rather than top-end talent, I'm still not sure that we have quite the depth of talent we need up front in order to pull that off.  If K-man progresses, that will make a significant difference (all else staying equal, which it never does; e.g., by the time Kotkaniemi is putting up 50+ points per season Byron will probably have disintegrated). A pity Lehkonen does not seem to have the 'next gear' that we all anticipated a couple of years back.

 

Anyway, I hope this post offers you more serious insight than the one that disappointed you earlier. Just to sum up: we need major upgrades at D and less serious but still meaningful upgrades at FW in order to approach the Bruins 2011 class. Or so I'd speculate.

 

The LA Kings did it

 

Chicago's three cup wins all came without a true 2nd line centre in any of them. 

 

The Anaheim Ducks that won a cup didn't have a superstar line... Selanne was great but the rest of his line was average.  Perry and Getzlaf were rookies and not yet what they would later become. 

The Devils three cup wins had what superstars at forward?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

The LA Kings did it

 

Chicago's three cup wins all came without a true 2nd line centre in any of them. 

 

The Anaheim Ducks that won a cup didn't have a superstar line... Selanne was great but the rest of his line was average.  Perry and Getzlaf were rookies and not yet what they would later become. 

The Devils three cup wins had what superstars at forward?

 

The Kings are a good example, agreed. I'm not sure about Chicago, though - not only was Toews routinely viewed as elite during that team's heyday, but they had a blueline as good as any in hockey.

 

I'm nervous about pointing to Cup wins from the dead puck era (Anaheim and Devils). But between Boston and LA, that's a sufficient data set from the 'new NHL' to satisfy me that the 'roll three/four lines' model can work. Like you, I think we need a talent upgrade at FW nevertheless, and I wouldn't rule out this coming from within via K-Man and Suzuki, etc. D is another story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The Kings are a good example, agreed. I'm not sure about Chicago, though - not only was Toews routinely viewed as elite during that team's heyday, but they had a blueline as good as any in hockey.

 

I'm nervous about pointing to Cup wins from the dead puck era (Anaheim and Devils). But between Boston and LA, that's a sufficient data set from the 'new NHL' to satisfy me that the 'roll three/four lines' model can work. Like you, I think we need a talent upgrade at FW nevertheless, and I wouldn't rule out this coming from within via K-Man and Suzuki, etc. D is another story.

 

Anaheim is post lockout/salary cap

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets not forget Vegas also applied the "Success by Committee" recipe as early as last season, and look how that played out. If your team is rolling its entire line up like unyielding robots the whole time and the goalie is in there making key saves, there is no telling how far it can go. Vegas did exactly that with their group of forwards and some brilliant goalkeeping by Fleury.

 

Not trying to say we will go as far or do what they did here, but simply put, it does not necessarily spell your doom as a team if you are not led by a Crosby type, the examples can be found all over the place throughout recent years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Commandant said:

The Anaheim Ducks that won a cup didn't have a superstar line... Selanne was great but the rest of his line was average.  Perry and Getzlaf were rookies and not yet what they would later become. 

Well...  Getzlaf (7-10-17) and Perry (6-9-15, same points total as Pronger and Selanne) ended up  1st and 2nd in scoring for the Ducks during their Cup run.  And both scored 3 less points during those playoffs than their higher total a few years later (Getzlaf 20pts in 14-15  and Perry 18pts in 14-15).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suppose the wider point is that IF the Habs are ever going to contend, it's going to have to be via the 'committee model' + superstar goalie. So we'd better hope that model is viable, as it was in 1986/1993. The Kings and Bruins seem to be sufficient evidence that it can work; and if you throw in Finalists like the Rangers and Golden Knights, then we can say with considerable confidence that this model, properly executed, will at least take us to the Finals.

 

We can get there. But we'll definitely need more than we have now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JoeLassister said:

Well...  Getzlaf (7-10-17) and Perry (6-9-15, same points total as Pronger and Selanne) ended up  1st and 2nd in scoring for the Ducks during their Cup run.  And both scored 3 less points during those playoffs than their higher total a few years later (Getzlaf 20pts in 14-15  and Perry 18pts in 14-15).

 

They also played one more round on the first cup run.

 

They were rookies who got hot during that playoff run.  No doubt about that.  The point is having a team that is three lines deep which gives the opportunity for someone to go on a hot streak (ala cammalleri or eller or bourque as seen on our team... or krejci in boston... or the marchessault, karlsson line in vegas... or whoever it is.) With three lines that are 1, 2a, and 2b... you have nine talented players and hope that one of those lines is hot at the right time of year 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...