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IN THE HEARTS OF MEN

Stuff moved from the Rumour thread that isn't rumours

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

Its true.

 

Tell me what team is perfect and has no weaknesses. 

Tampa is the closest I've seen and they had Dan Girardi on their first pair defence last year, and lost in 4 straight in the first round. 

The Blue's improved their team won a cup

 

Pittsburgh is always trying to address their team needs 

 

Toronto has address team needs this 

 

Tampa makes changes and address team needs 

 

San Jose does the same 

 

Florida is going to be better with the move's they made to address team needs 

 

Vancouver made changes to address needs 

 

Then you got Bergevin who does nothing. He took over a team that was one player away from maybe wining a cup and basically blow it up.

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15 minutes ago, Metallica said:

The Blue's improved their team won a cup

 

Pittsburgh is always trying to address their team needs 

 

Toronto has address team needs this 

 

Tampa makes changes and address team needs 

 

San Jose does the same 

 

Florida is going to be better with the move's they made to address team needs 

 

Vancouver made changes to address needs 

 

Then you got Bergevin who does nothing. He took over a team that was one player away from maybe wining a cup and basically blow it up.

 

You didn't answer the question. 

The question was... what team is perfect. 

The Blues had goaltending issues and was lucky that their fourth string guy from the start of the season played like a good goalie after injuries hit.  They also don't have the star power that Pittsburgh, Washington, etc... have. 

Pittsburgh lacks defence.

Toronto lacks defence. 

Tampa lost a number of defencemen and again their weakness is at the back end. 

San Jose might have the worst goaltending in the NHL.  IF its not the worst, its bottom 3. 

Florida still lacks defensive depth. 

Vancouver lacks scoring depth, and trusts Markstrom as their number 1 goalie.  I also don't think they have a number 1 defenceman. 

 

Every team has flaws. 

 

 

 

Did they work to improve? sure... but that doesn't make them perfect.  Bergevin makes moves too.  Last summer he addressed the centre issue.  He also has greatly added to the prospect pool.  This summer he added a much better backup goalie.  He also upgraded Been to Chiarot.   

If the question is, does the GM make moves to improve his team?  We've been over this... Bergevin has never been afraid to make moves, he makes as many moves as any GM in the NHL. 

 

If the question is, has the GM fixed every weakness? Then there is no team in the NHL where the GM has fixed every weakness.  There is no perfect team. 

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The issue is not whether there are "perfect teams" (Tampa seems close, on paper; God knows what happened in the playoffs) or whether there are GMs who "fix every weakness." That's a crazy, artificial binary. Of course every team has holes, and of course every GM tries to fix them.

 

But it *is* fair to suggest that, as busy a bee as Bergevin has been, he has not been very good at fixing glaring roster problems. He had a team that needed a top-6 C for years and did nothing to fix that. In fact, he waited around twiddling his thumbs until Plekanec's game cratered from old age, and then suddenly was stuck with a team that had zero top-6 C. Indeed, it took him from 2012 to 2018 (!) to add a single clear-cut top-6 C to the roster in Max Domi. No wonder the team has a mediocre record over that span. Similarly, he has had at least one major hole on the blueline (LD) since 2017, and has done jack-squat to address that too, at least so far. (By contrast, he *did* go out and get Jeff Petry to help solidify RD a few years back. I don't say he's never done anything. But has he done enough?). When he did add a major piece in Radulov, he couldn't hold onto him. Hell, even the backup G position has been inadequate, for, like, years.

 

Meanwhile, the single biggest move he made, the Weber deal, was a lateral move in nearly every sense, and did not tangibly improve the team.  The Drouin deal, less said the better. All that did was compound the organizational hole at LD.

 

When people say Bergevin "has done nothing," they're falling into hyperbole, which invites the easy riposte that "no, he's done stuff." That's the wrong argument. The issue is whether that "stuff" fixed major roster holes. Too often, it didn't.

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Seems like all of this should be moved to the Fire Bergevin thread. Every time the Rumour thread is bumped, I expect something interesting. Instead, it's more Bergevin and a race of the downvotes/upvotes.

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What MB has done over the last 3 seasons is compile many draft picks and prospects and refused to deal prospects/ picks for immediate help. He has been saying for years he wont mortgage the future for a top C and he would get that player when available in the draft. fast forward to Kotkaniemi and Poehling and Evans etc. He did finally shell out money on the "top" UFA D man that off season and it completly back fired in Alzner after Markov walked. He's always been a penny pincher for the most mart in UFA market and has managed the cap well.

Keep in mind, we lost radulov and markov which set us back two seasons ago. But, if those 2 were in fact signed we probably dont have kotkaniemi, Caufield, Tatar, Suzuki, struble today...

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The argument that he killed killed the old core is a good one. I was reading an article in the athletic, which showed contenders over the last decade.  Using the following criteria

 

1. Finish the regular season with 100 or more points (or the equivalent in a lockout year)
2. Finish in the top 10 in both the penalty kill and power play
3. Finish in the top five in the league in xGF%
4. Finish in the top five in the league in GF%
5. Finish in the top five in the league in SRS (a metric from hockey-reference that factors in goal differential and strength of schedule)
6. Advance to the second round of the playoffs the previous year

 

Montreal were contenders in 2010 2013 and 2014. That is all gaineys and gautiers team.  rather than build on an already great team, bergevin slowly dismantled it before they could truly contend. But to call the last couple years inept, is also wrong.  There are some impact prospects in ther system. A lot of them.  The coaching staff has been upgraded in a big way.  I think he should get a few more years at this point. 

 

 

...sorry about the font. Not sure what happened. 

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On 7/30/2019 at 4:39 PM, hab29RETIRED said:

Right.  Does your data show what the average point totals were earlier in MB’s reign as GM, when he still had the core he inherited vs the performance after he put more of his stamp on the team?  Does it show the difference in the playoff performance in the first half of his reign vs when he changed the core.  Raw data without context is crap.  To come to the conclusion that his an above average GM bases on a overly simplistic analysis is crap as well.

ok, just to follow your argument. If my quick analysis is crap, what numbers do you base your opinions on?

Please share, I would like to see them.

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1 hour ago, huzer said:

Seems like all of this should be moved to the Fire Bergevin thread. Every time the Rumour thread is bumped, I expect something interesting. Instead, it's more Bergevin and a race of the downvotes/upvotes.

 

I feel the same way.  Especially with the buyout window opening for NYR and CGY, it could be an interesting couple of days.  (It looks like Shattenkirk will be turfed when the window opens up tomorrow.)

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4 hours ago, huzer said:

Seems like all of this should be moved to the Fire Bergevin thread. Every time the Rumour thread is bumped, I expect something interesting. Instead, it's more Bergevin and a race of the downvotes/upvotes.

Quiet down or will be a downvote for you as well!:popcorn:

(has anything of NHL significance ever happened in August?) i now see #99 Oiler trade was in Aug.

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12 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

I feel the same way.  Especially with the buyout window opening for NYR and CGY, it could be an interesting couple of days.  (It looks like Shattenkirk will be turfed when the window opens up tomorrow.)

Shattenkirk?  I would have thought Brendan Smith over Shattenkirk.  Too bad he's RD otherwise I wouldn't mind the Habs taking a run at him if he is bought out (Shattenkirk that is).

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37 minutes ago, John B said:

Shattenkirk?  I would have thought Brendan Smith over Shattenkirk.  Too bad he's RD otherwise I wouldn't mind the Habs taking a run at him if he is bought out (Shattenkirk that is).

The Rangers overpaid for  Shattenkirk, and now need to fix it. He would be on the 3rd pair as a RD for the Habs, and not worth the money he was making in NY. 

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1 hour ago, John B said:

Shattenkirk?  I would have thought Brendan Smith over Shattenkirk.  Too bad he's RD otherwise I wouldn't mind the Habs taking a run at him if he is bought out (Shattenkirk that is).

Ya, I figured they would have done a Smith buyout and tried to trade Shattenkirk at half salary retained. The 2nd year of the Shattenkirk buyout is beyond painful.

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Flames buy out michael stone.

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Not much to talk about these days but man, what a great job Bergevin has done with this team. 

 

 

*goes to get popcorn* 

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i will almost guarantee if Markov is signed he will end up in the top 4... and then Claude Julien will use him with Weber down the stretch for sure as He just wont be able to help himself with this temptation (especially since #79 will continue to defy the odds haha). Also, we don't need Pominville but a PTO to help push the pace at training camp wouldn't hurt.

 

Weise doesn't stand a chance of making the team i believe and is Laval bound.

 

Our biggest hope/dream is

-that Mete earns his #2 spot through merit rather necessity and we have a legit top pair

-Chariot turns out to be another sly steal ala Petry

-Kotkaniemi comes into camp big, fast and about 10/15 pounds heavier.

-Poehling impresses so much that we are able to move Domi back to wing to replace Shaw.

-Lehkonan finally remembers how to score and Armia learns to do more then just dominate possesion!

 

Tatar Danault Gallagher-----> proven commodity last year

Drouin Poehling Domi -----> could you imagine if Poehling could merit this spot??

Lehkonan KK Armia-----> the flying finns!!  haha

Byron Cousins Weal-----> could be one of the best 4th lines in the NHL

Thompson-(Evans)  Hudon-(Suzuki)

 

Mete Weber

Chariot Petry

Kulak Follin

Reilly-(Juulsen** )

 

Price

Kincaid

 

(    )dark horse to make team with opposite player waived or traded)

** monitor injury to eye and not waived

 

players waived or  better yet traded almost guaranteed

 

Peca 1.3 million

Weise 2.3 million

Alzner 4.6 million

Mason's contract 1.4 million

9.6 million in CAP space if moved

 

 

sorry cant help myself... love speculating line ups in august!

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I don't want to move Domi back to wing.  He had his best season, BY FAR, at centre.  Why move him off that?

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10 hours ago, Commandant said:

I don't want to move Domi back to wing.  He had his best season, BY FAR, at centre.  Why move him off that?

 

Yeah, Domi FINALLY gives the Habs a legit top-6 C. It's funny how often commentators and even fans fail to acknowledge this. 

19 hours ago, Trizzak said:

Weal.

 

The battle for 13th forward is pretty much between Hudon, Peca, and Weise, with an outside shot to guys like Varone or Barber.

 

Whoops, I completely forgot about Weal! My bad.

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On 2019-08-08 at 1:08 AM, Commandant said:

I don't want to move Domi back to wing.  He had his best season, BY FAR, at centre.  Why move him off that?

I did say poehling impressing so much and meriting that spot (not just giving it to him...)

 

That would be ideal!

 

I think if Aho was in fact signed... Domi would be moved to wing. And that's MB ultimate plan I believe.

 

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42 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

I did say poehling impressing so much and meriting that spot (not just giving it to him...)

 

That would be ideal!

 

I think if Aho was in fact signed... Domi would be moved to wing. And that's MB ultimate plan I believe.

 

 

It is highly unlikely that Poehling will just step into a top-6 NHL C slot. And it is even more unlikely that he will outperform Domi's impressive 72 points. We have seen over and over and over that, apart from rare outliers like Price, Subban, and Gallagher - prospects hardly ever come in and make a big impact. (And hell, even Price and Gally crashed a couple of years in, before recovering; and Subban was benched for five games). And yet wave after wave of prospect comes up with all tbese unrealistic assumptions about what they might be able to do.We never learn.

 

This post also illustrates what I mean about Domi being overlooked as a C. If I told you tomorrow that Poehling would become a 60-point C, folks would be clicking their heels. Meanwhile we have a 23-year-old 72-point C and quite a few people overlook this, or else talk about moving him to W for some reason. Domi's production is that of a legit #1C in the NHL. Let's internalize that, finally.

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Poehling will get ice time on the wing and center this year. 

 

Drouin will fall out of favor in less than 2 months and be moved down the lineup, 

 

Suzuki will get ice time at center and wing as well 

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21 hours ago, Chris said:

Poehling will get ice time on the wing and center this year. 

 

Suzuki will get ice time at center and wing as well.

And hope both do well in Laval at centre or wing.

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13 hours ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

I did say poehling impressing so much and meriting that spot (not just giving it to him...)

 

That would be ideal!

 

I think if Aho was in fact signed... Domi would be moved to wing. And that's MB ultimate plan I believe.

 

 

Its a little different with Aho, a proven number one centre. 

And Poehling, who is unproven... and who likely is a 2nd or 3rd line centre at max.  I could be wrong, but I don't see Poehling ever scoring 70 points in a season.  His potential has never been to be a true franchise centre, but rather a nice #2 who can play in both ends.  And one game where he everything went in for him doesn't change that. 

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Dumont bit shows Poehling closest to Drew Stafford in similar NCAA production.

But also comparable to Coyle, Wheeler, or Tuch and 1 busted prospect as well (which is always a possibility with almost any prospect).

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12 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Its a little different with Aho, a proven number one centre. 

And Poehling, who is unproven... and who likely is a 2nd or 3rd line centre at max.  I could be wrong, but I don't see Poehling ever scoring 70 points in a season.  His potential has never been to be a true franchise centre, but rather a nice #2 who can play in both ends.  And one game where he everything went in for him doesn't change that. 

I dont get it? I agree with everything your saying but your countering nothing that i was saying!!!

 

Obviously Aho is proven. Its why hes making 12 million and MB went after him regardless of how weak an offer he made to secure the signing...but thanks for pointing that out 

Why is Poehling likely to just be a 2nd/3rd liner max? Is he to small? To slow? Doesn’t have the vision? The drive? To soft?

Did you think Bergeron was a 2nd/ 3rd liner max? What about Gallagher? Or Point? Etc. Spare me please. If anything, Poehling’s progression/ development has only been going one way and that’s UP since being drafted. His recent WJC and even his 1st game in the NHL as meaningless as it was should have us feeling good about him.

 

Domi has always been a winger and LY he was used out of position and thank God Almighty it worked out better then Drouin the year before.

 

Also, where did i say Poehling was going to be a a franchise center and a prolific scorer. In fact, my dream or hope was that he would MERIT and IMPRESS enough to move Domi wide and he would slot in at the #2 spot like you said. (Impress and merit signifying nothing given to him but earning it.)

I didn’t say/mention at all his 3 goal night in the last game of the season against a team going through the motions (leafs).

 

The whole point is if we are looking to within for improvement of this team next year and not from the market whether trade/UFA then you tell me what your hope/ dream is for next season...

 

 

On 2019-08-09 at 11:46 AM, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

It is highly unlikely that Poehling will just step into a top-6 NHL C slot. And it is even more unlikely that he will outperform Domi's impressive 72 points. We have seen over and over and over that, apart from rare outliers like Price, Subban, and Gallagher - prospects hardly ever come in and make a big impact. (And hell, even Price and Gally crashed a couple of years in, before recovering; and Subban was benched for five games). And yet wave after wave of prospect comes up with all tbese unrealistic assumptions about what they might be able to do.We never learn.

 

This post also illustrates what I mean about Domi being overlooked as a C. If I told you tomorrow that Poehling would become a 60-point C, folks would be clicking their heels. Meanwhile we have a 23-year-old 72-point C and quite a few people overlook this, or else talk about moving him to W for some reason. Domi's production is that of a legit #1C in the NHL. Let's internalize that, finally.

What the hell, who said it was highly likely?

 

i said one of OUR BIGGEST HOPE/ DREAM  is that Poehling CAN impress SO much that we CAN afford the luxury of moving Domi back to his natural position to replace Shaw. Is that not a logical dream? 

 

So to clarify i said it would be a dream that POEHLING could MERIT moving DOMI back to WING.

 

On top of that, Can Domi not get 72 points from the wing? He’s dominated at wing his entire f’ing career before the NHL... is it not plausible he was poised for a breakout at 23 regardless of playing C or wing after struggling on a bad Arizona team and hampered by wrist injuries etc.

 

So with no major impact player being brought in and speculating that we are looking for growth from within the system... what’s your dream or hope? 

 

Is it another 70 point season from Domi and poehling making the team as the 4C. Our using Domi out of position at C again hoping he can improve on a shockingly impressive season and playing Poehling out of position on the wing? Maybe its keep Domi at C and have Suzuki play wing in the top 6?

 

are we not a better hockey team if Poehling proves to be good enough to play top 6 with Domi? I dont get it the negative.

 

so please instead of stating the obvious that Domi had a great season at C last year please tell me our biggest hope/ dream for next season that doesn’t involve a trade or UFA pick up...

 

im sure it wont be far off of what we all would wish...

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Poehling might grow into a top-6 C. It's possible given the lift-off that his offensive game displayed in the minors, after he was drafted as more of a two-way guy. What I'm skeptical about is that he will step in and be a #2C next season, his rookie year. And even in the highly unlikely event that he plays like a top-6 FW consistently, it is probably more realistic that *he* would be the guy placed on the wing next to Domi, rather than the other way around.

 

Here's another way to put it: Poehling is 99% guaranteed NOT to be a better player, or better C, than Max Domi next season.

 

My general attitude can be summed up as follows. Rookies rarely step in and make a consistent impact. That's just reality. And that's why I generally don't get too excited about what they will add to the roster, in that first season. Call me a pessimist all you want, but the list of Habs rookies/prospects that people got all excited about is practically endless - and of all of them, only a small handful actually bucked the odds and had an immediate impact. (Indeed, most of them amounted to nothing or relatively little as NHL players in general, never mind as rookies).

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