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IN THE HEARTS OF MEN

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2 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

Great post.  This sums up my view perfectly. Add to the disappointment his handling of the Markov Radulov free agency.  

 

I agree with a lot of the post too but I am always a little surprised at the Radulov criticism. Nobody ever gives MB credit for taking a chance and bringing him over to begin with.  Radulov left the NHL on bad terms originally and nobody else seemed to want to take a chance on him until MB did. I really hated to see Radulov go too, he is an excellent player. I think MB gave it his best effort to keep him but I guess it came down to money like it usually does and MB obviously would have had to offer more than Dallas because of the tax situation. 

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4 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Bergevin’s been a GM for 7 years.  The team has missed the playoffs 4 of those years- including 3 of the last 4 years. The previous seven years before MB, they missed the playoffs 3 times.  The 5 years prior to MB being hired, they missed the playoffs once and that was the year they made cunneyworth coach and then Molson cut off his balls.

 

before MB, they were an average team.  With him, they are clearly below average - now that is a fact.

 

Yeah, I can see the argument that, after years of flailing around, MB finally has the organization moving in a coherent direction and the propect/young talent pool looks good. I find it unduly optimistic, based on faith, but it's a defensible viewpoint. But the idea that he has done a great job over his tenure? Untenable short of some magical thinking that ignores actual results.

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Yeah, I can see the argument that, after years of flailing around, MB finally has the organization moving in a coherent direction and the propect/young talent pool looks good. I find it unduly optimistic, based on faith, but it's a defensible viewpoint. But the idea that he has done a great job over his tenure? Untenable short of some magical thinking that ignores actual results.

Yep, We have some promising prospects, but I want to see how they develop.  But frankly, MB should not be the one to get that chance.  Like I said earlier.  Most GM’s in his position get fired and would have been fired by now.  The fact his bum buddies MT, Daigneult and Lefebve kept their jobs as long as they did alone should have been worthy of firing.

 

The only other franchise with this level of ineptitude was the islanders where Milbery and Snow kept their jobs because of an idiotic owner.  The isles finally aren’t a laughing stock - but it took an ownership change to finally tire of snow and replace him with respectable, experienced management.

 

the scary thing is that our choices were Bergevin and McGuire.  Not sure if we ended up with Dumb or Dumber.

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55 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

 

 

The only other franchise with this level of ineptitude was the islanders where Milbery and Snow kept their jobs because of an idiotic owner.  The isles finally aren’t a laughing stock - but it took an ownership change to finally tire of snow and replace him with respectable, experienced management.

 

 

This is an over the top statement.  Calling him mediocre is a fair assessment, but milbery snow level ineptitude is radical.

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4 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I agree with a lot of the post too but I am always a little surprised at the Radulov criticism. Nobody ever gives MB credit for taking a chance and bringing him over to begin with.  Radulov left the NHL on bad terms originally and nobody else seemed to want to take a chance on him until MB did. I really hated to see Radulov go too, he is an excellent player. I think MB gave it his best effort to keep him but I guess it came down to money like it usually does and MB obviously would have had to offer more than Dallas because of the tax situation. 

The issue I have is that he did not court radulov really.  He played hard ball the whole way. Saying it was first come first serve publically.  This, to me, is a very indifferent statement.  I would want to look elsewhere if my boss publically said that about me.

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My thing with management is this,

 

If you want to go the young way and keep your picks and prospects and not go all out for top UFA's, or make trades to help the team at the deadline ........ Then why hold on to Price and Weber? Do them a favor and trade them to a team that's committed to wining now. If you do that you can still get top end value for them now. Then make your run in 3 years when our top prospects are ready.

   Right now their living on false hope that all we need is Price to get a shootout every night and we have a chance. They think they don't need to put a competitive team in front of Price because Price will be the difference. Well this way of thinking has lead us to being a average team at best and missing the playoffs 4 out of 7 years.

 

At what point in 6 years has this management lead us to believe that they were going to do what it takes to win the cup now? Over the last 2 years we have had the draft picks, the prospects and the cap space to pull off trades to go on a run. But guess what they have done nothing. This is what drives me crazy.

  

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36 minutes ago, Metallica said:

My thing with management is this,

 

If you want to go the young way and keep your picks and prospects and not go all out for top UFA's, or make trades to help the team at the deadline ........ Then why hold on to Price and Weber? Do them a favor and trade them to a team that's committed to wining now. If you do that you can still get top end value for them now. Then make your run in 3 years when our top prospects are ready.

   Right now their living on false hope that all we need is Price to get a shootout every night and we have a chance. They think they don't need to put a competitive team in front of Price because Price will be the difference. Well this way of thinking has lead us to being a average team at best and missing the playoffs 4 out of 7 years.

 

At what point in 6 years has this management lead us to believe that they were going to do what it takes to win the cup now? Over the last 2 years we have had the draft picks, the prospects and the cap space to pull off trades to go on a run. But guess what they have done nothing. This is what drives me crazy.

  

My simple response is veterans are necessary for development. Edmonton is the prime example of why you can’t go pure young talent. Price and Weber are prime players to teach KK Domi, Caufeild, Poehling, Suzuki, Drouin, Lehkonen... our youth list goes on. 

 

They need to learn from the vets    

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1 hour ago, Meller93 said:

My simple response is veterans are necessary for development. Edmonton is the prime example of why you can’t go pure young talent. Price and Weber are prime players to teach KK Domi, Caufeild, Poehling, Suzuki, Drouin, Lehkonen... our youth list goes on. 

 

They need to learn from the vets    

Price and Weber have been teaching guys like Gallagher, Mete, Petry , Danault, Domi , Tatar, Drouin ,Lehkonen and Kotkaniemi already and these would be the new leadership  in the room for the younger guys like Suzuki, Caufeild and poehling once you trade Weber and Price.

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7 hours ago, Metallica said:

Price and Weber have been teaching guys like Gallagher, Mete, Petry , Danault, Domi , Tatar, Drouin ,Lehkonen and Kotkaniemi already and these would be the new leadership  in the room for the younger guys like Suzuki, Caufeild and poehling once you trade Weber and Price.

 

While there's potential for leadership on that list of players, I'd say that only Gallagher and Petry could be counted on to provide something akin to what Price and Weber bring to the locker room.  

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8 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

This is an over the top statement.  Calling him mediocre is a fair assessment, but milbery snow level ineptitude is radical.

 

An over the top negative statement?  Of course, look who posted it.

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8 hours ago, Metallica said:

My thing with management is this,

 

If you want to go the young way and keep your picks and prospects and not go all out for top UFA's, or make trades to help the team at the deadline ........ Then why hold on to Price and Weber? Do them a favor and trade them to a team that's committed to wining now. If you do that you can still get top end value for them now. Then make your run in 3 years when our top prospects are ready.

   Right now their living on false hope that all we need is Price to get a shootout every night and we have a chance. They think they don't need to put a competitive team in front of Price because Price will be the difference. Well this way of thinking has lead us to being a average team at best and missing the playoffs 4 out of 7 years.

 

At what point in 6 years has this management lead us to believe that they were going to do what it takes to win the cup now? Over the last 2 years we have had the draft picks, the prospects and the cap space to pull off trades to go on a run. But guess what they have done nothing. This is what drives me crazy.

  

This issue was that was MB's plan 6 years ago and look where he has taken the team.  He sucked at the draft a few years in a row, did a horrible job at developing talent and ruining young players confidence.  Then he trades Sergachev for Drouin. Creates a hole in D were it's harder to find true #1D and gets at 3rd line player.  All the reports on Drouin being a problem were very public and he gets him for top talent. If he is left in position he will trade all the young prospects for bags of pucks and we will be saying give it a few more years again with the same idiot.  That's the definition of insanity. Gillette was a bad owner, but Molson is making him look great. 

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A player who has 53, 46, and 53 points in his last three seasons is not a third line player.  Michael sergachev has not proven to be a number 1 d.  He was on the third pair last season.  

 

Bergevin is Trading all the prospects?  What?  How?  We have one of the best prospect pools in the league thanks to prospects and picks we have added in recent years.

 

Let's stop the madness people.

 

There are areas to criticize but when you say that Bergervin is comparable to Milbury or that Drouin is a third liner.  You lose any and all credibility and your argument becomes moot.

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16 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Above average in what sense - ?

Good question:

points per season and playoff performance compared to other teams. The CH is clearly above average.

 

I had posted an excel spreadsheet last year, I'll update it and share it again

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15 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Bergevin’s been a GM for 7 years.  The team has missed the playoffs 4 of those years- including 3 of the last 4 years. The previous seven years before MB, they missed the playoffs 3 times.  The 5 years prior to MB being hired, they missed the playoffs once and that was the year they made cunneyworth coach and then Molson cut off his balls.

 

before MB, they were an average team.  With him, they are clearly below average - now that is a fact.

hab29RETIRED, I'll post the numbers as soon as I add the 2018-2019 season

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Richard09 said:

Above average.  One playoff appearance in the last 3 seasons. Trading a top d for a 3rd line forward, yes Drouin is not a Top 6 player. Yes Houle and Gauthier were bad but they were on on the job for 8 years. One would think that after 8 years of drafting and making trades the team would have more playoff appearances than and success than that.  In 8 years the team is no better than the Houle and Gauthier teams. 

Ricahrd9.

I'll post the numbers for us to have something beyond an opinion. We can debate the numbers then , but at least we can base it on results

 

It took me a day to create the spreadsheet. I'll try to find the time this weekend. in 2018, the team was trending down, so I may be wrong now; let me put the numbers together

Edited by alfredoh2009
added

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I have a hunch that we will be seeing more from Drouin this year. I actually really like the player, his skill when his head is in the game is undeniable. I have heard rumours that Domi really gave him shit about getting himself together and I think Drouin feels a bit embarrassed on how he ended the season last year. 

 

If he’s not traded I think he will put in a better effort and not get caught living in his head like he did.

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Our prospects pool has been 10x better over the last 3 years once Bergevin change his concept that the old way was still relevant in today's new NHL. Now he's drafting for speed and skill rather than grit and size. I will give him credit for that.

 

But his been here 7 years now along with Molson and other than the first year where he traded for Vanek at the trade deadline, I have get no indication that this organization is serious about making a Stanley cup run. 

 

Trades made have been head shaker's, the Domi and Pacioretty trade worked out in his favor but when made, made no sense.

 

Only UFA brought in that worked out was Radulov.

 

To me it's time for change.

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2 hours ago, Metallica said:

Our prospects pool has been 10x better over the last 3 years once Bergevin change his concept that the old way was still relevant in today's new NHL. Now he's drafting for speed and skill rather than grit and size. I will give him credit for that.

 

But his been here 7 years now along with Molson and other than the first year where he traded for Vanek at the trade deadline, I have get no indication that this organization is serious about making a Stanley cup run. 

 

Trades made have been head shaker's, the Domi and Pacioretty trade worked out in his favor but when made, made no sense.

 

Only UFA brought in that worked out was Radulov.

 

To me it's time for change.

 

 

The pacioretty trade made tons of sense on the day it was made.

 

The domi trade many questioned including me.  I was wrong it worked.

 

He gets credit for the result not for what we thought of the trade on the day it was made.  Whether it was a headscratcher or not is irrelevant.  He gets credit for the move today.

 

Just like he gets blame if a good looking trade goes bad.

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ok so you can honestly sit their and say to yourself that over the last 7 years of this ownership/management team they have done everything they could to make a serious run at the cup? Because I can't and I will not, they haven't shown me anything. Just a lot of band aid type trades and moves to keep the media and fans quite.

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12 hours ago, Metallica said:

Price and Weber have been teaching guys like Gallagher, Mete, Petry , Danault, Domi , Tatar, Drouin ,Lehkonen and Kotkaniemi already and these would be the new leadership  in the room for the younger guys like Suzuki, Caufeild and poehling once you trade Weber and Price.

Price and Weber have won gold on international level, and had some success over long careers. I just think they’re better vets for teaching purposes 

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1 hour ago, Meller93 said:

Price and Weber have won gold on international level, and had some success over long careers. I just think they’re better vets for teaching purposes 

Remember when we traded the older leadership in the room so our young guys ie Pacioretty, Price, PK. Could be the new core of the organization. They had no cups or gold medals as pros but we got rid of guys like gionta and Gomez and let the young guys become leader's on this team. 

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47 minutes ago, Metallica said:

ok so you can honestly sit their and say to yourself that over the last 7 years of this ownership/management team they have done everything they could to make a serious run at the cup? Because I can't and I will not, they haven't shown me anything. Just a lot of band aid type trades and moves to keep the media and fans quite.

 

I made my point.  I would have fired him after 2017.  

 

They didnt.

 

They kept him on.

 

What hes done over the last two years tells me that hes moving in the right direction.

 

If I feel things are going well now, I'm not going to short circuit that and replace him because of a move in 2015.

 

GMs grow and mature and learn on the job.  So do coaches.  So do players.  I dont think hes the same guy we hired in 2013 who had never been a GM before.  Over his tenure hes made good moves and mistakes.  His current trajectory tells me that hes learned from the mistakes.

 

So I'm weighing what is happening now way more than I'm weighing what happened 4 years ago.  And what I see is an organization building up their young talent and prospects.

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37 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

I made my point.  I would have fired him after 2017.  

 

They didnt.

 

They kept him on.

 

What hes done over the last two years tells me that hes moving in the right direction.

 

If I feel things are going well now, I'm not going to short circuit that and replace him because of a move in 2015.

 

GMs grow and mature and learn on the job.  So do coaches.  So do players.  I dont think hes the same guy we hired in 2013 who had never been a GM before.  Over his tenure hes made good moves and mistakes.  His current trajectory tells me that hes learned from the mistakes.

 

So I'm weighing what is happening now way more than I'm weighing what happened 4 years ago.  And what I see is an organization building up their young talent and prospects.

That's exactly my point if we're building up our young talent and prospects we have no need for Price and Weber, trade them now get top talent back well you still can and let them go win a cup before its to late for them to do so, because that's not going to happen here anytime soon.

 We can get a big return on Weber and Price if we trade them now, rather then when their past 35 and just average NHL players.

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6 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

I made my point.  I would have fired him after 2017.  

 

They didnt.

 

They kept him on.

 

What hes done over the last two years tells me that hes moving in the right direction.

 

If I feel things are going well now, I'm not going to short circuit that and replace him because of a move in 2015.

 

GMs grow and mature and learn on the job.  So do coaches.  So do players.  I dont think hes the same guy we hired in 2013 who had never been a GM before.  Over his tenure hes made good moves and mistakes.  His current trajectory tells me that hes learned from the mistakes.

 

So I'm weighing what is happening now way more than I'm weighing what happened 4 years ago.  And what I see is an organization building up their young talent and prospects.

He's been gifted picks. 

 

The prospect pool is better because this team hasn't made the playoffs 3 out of the last 4 years. I mean, is it that hard to see. 

 

This g.m couldn't put the missing pieces together when he had a core of Price, Pacioretty, Subban, Galchenyuk, Radulov, and prized prospect in Serachev... No faith here.

 

The same people that love Bergevin, are the same ones that loved Therrien. How did that play out...

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7 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

I made my point.  I would have fired him after 2017.  

 

They didnt.

 

They kept him on.

 

What hes done over the last two years tells me that hes moving in the right direction.

 

If I feel things are going well now, I'm not going to short circuit that and replace him because of a move in 2015.

 

GMs grow and mature and learn on the job.  So do coaches.  So do players.  I dont think hes the same guy we hired in 2013 who had never been a GM before.  Over his tenure hes made good moves and mistakes.  His current trajectory tells me that hes learned from the mistakes.

 

So I'm weighing what is happening now way more than I'm weighing what happened 4 years ago.  And what I see is an organization building up their young talent and prospects.

 

 

SparseTastyIrishwolfhound-size_restricte

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