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2019-20 NHL Discussion Thread


dlbalr

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19 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Well, I was not one of those chronic complainers. I liked the team in 2010 and strongly felt that the 2014/15 team was "almost there." The thing is, I was looking for the latter team to make additional runs, building on the 2014/15 failures. You lose before you win; a team matures, learns, grows, and eventually breaks through. That takes more than two seasons, usually. Instead of those seasons being the beginning of something, they were the end of it. And now I'm being asked to look back upon a brief interlude of high-quality hockey and told I should be happy with two years amidst three decades of garbage.

 

The goal is not to "get back there," i.e., have a team knocking on the door for a couple of years, then disintegrate. The goal is not to just "have a shot." Rather the goal is to have a sustained run of excellence as one of the league's top teams over several seasons. Boston is the best example; Tampa, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Washington, and St. Louis are others: teams which, for roughly a decade, have consistently been in the mix as plausible Cup picks. They have better or worse seasons, better or worse playoffs, within that time-span, because sh*t happens, and because it's very hard to win a Cup; but on a year-in year-out basis, such teams are on all the lists of probably contenders, and are universally respected and feared as heavy-duty clubs to be reckoned with. The Habs have not been in this category since the early '90s.

 

What frustrates me is that a significant chunk of the Habs fanbase no longer seems to even recognize this as a goal, or else seems to think it is axiomatically impossible for the Habs to get there. Instead it's either wave pom-poms for mediocrity, or else fantasize about getting lucky and having a year where "everything goes just right." The loser mentality has become baked in.

100% agree. I’ve said it over and over habs fan have become what leaf fans were.  Every year was a year to start planning the parade route and owners and managemt kept making dumb moves but it didn’t matter because they still sold out every night and their was always this Jeckyl and Hyde fan base.  Complained and wore bags over their head because the team sucked, but dammit, lets start the planning the parade route, we just drafted Luke Richardson- he’a going to make us better and Daniel Marios is going to better than Lanny, or we dumped that bum Vaive who is useless in the playoffs for a proven playoff scorer in Secord and We also got Olcyck.  All we had to do was throw in this Thomas kid.  Let’s get the parade route going!!

 

Kinda like us - wow we got Prust or a washed up Briere!

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46 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Well, I was not one of those chronic complainers.

Well, you might be one of those now.

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On 6/15/2020 at 1:53 PM, hab29RETIRED said:

There is a difference between a team that at least has a legitimate chance to win than one that’s living on a prayer - which might make for a good song - is not a strategy for success....

 

Exactly ... the current "make the playoffs and anything can happen" formula is a recipe for first round losses, with a VERY occasional second or third round appearance

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2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Or the team might chronically suck. I guess that didn't occur to you.

But it is just you and 29 who see the need to add chronic complaining to every post.

But don't feel too bad, it takes all kinds...

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3 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Koivu was a legitimate #1 centre.  He just blew out his knee a t the start of his career.  He was actually top 5 in scoring until he blew out his knee. 

 

Agreed ... he had that potential ... but that was, to quote Don McLean, a long, long time ago ... 

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3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

... You lose before you win ...

 

Thank you for phrasing it properly ... sooooooooo tired of "you have to learn to lose before you can win" mistake that is so often made.

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19 minutes ago, DON said:

But it is just you and 29 who see the need to add chronic complaining to every post.

But don't feel too bad, it takes all kinds...

 

Add me to the list ... of course I am part of (perhaps) the most spoiled generation ever ... I saw the Habs win 8 Cups in 12 years ... in my teens/early 20s ... in the 26 seasons since they last won the Cup the Habs have missed the playoffs 11 times (I count this year as a miss no matter what happens), lost in the first round 8 times, 5 times in the second round and twice in the third round ... and the third rounders were (IMO) miracles courtesy of Halak and Price ... if has been more than a decade since I felt the Habs started the season as a legit Cup contender and infrequent before that.

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Buffalo went on a firing spree today - the GM and his assistants were fired along with their AHL coaching staff, head scout Ryan Jankowski (a former Montreal scout), plus a big chunk of their scouting staff. 

 

Kevyn Adams has been named Buffalo's new GM.  He was previously their VP of Business Administration for this season.  That's the extent of his front office experience at any level.  Not that I was a huge fan of Jason Botterill did as GM but this is more than a little baffling.  At this point, Terry Pegula may as well just named himself the GM as there's no way Adams is anything but an ownership puppet; if not, they would have conducted something resembling a GM search or hired someone with any sort of experience.

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13 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

Buffalo went on a firing spree today - the GM and his assistants were fired along with their AHL coaching staff, head scout Ryan Jankowski (a former Montreal scout), plus a big chunk of their scouting staff. 

 

Kevyn Adams has been named Buffalo's new GM.  He was previously their VP of Business Administration for this season.  That's the extent of his front office experience at any level.  Not that I was a huge fan of Jason Botterill did as GM but this is more than a little baffling.  At this point, Terry Pegula may as well just named himself the GM as there's no way Adams is anything but an ownership puppet; if not, they would have conducted something resembling a GM search or hired someone with any sort of experience.

 

Buffalo is a gong show.

 

Who knows, maybe this means Eichel will want out. Could be good for a team with cap space

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10 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Buffalo is a gong show.

 

Who knows, maybe this means Eichel will want out. Could be good for a team with cap space

 

Seriously doubt their new GM will consider moving Eichel ... unless it is for a ridiculous package of potential ... multiple high first rounders (recent or current) and more and more

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56 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Buffalo is a gong show.

 

Eugene Melnyk in Ottawa has to be loving this.  Finally, there's a case to be made that there's a cheaper owner out there than he is.

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1 hour ago, dlbalr said:

Buffalo went on a firing spree today - the GM and his assistants were fired along with their AHL coaching staff, head scout Ryan Jankowski (a former Montreal scout), plus a big chunk of their scouting staff. 

 

Kevyn Adams has been named Buffalo's new GM.  He was previously their VP of Business Administration for this season.  That's the extent of his front office experience at any level.  Not that I was a huge fan of Jason Botterill did as GM but this is more than a little baffling.  At this point, Terry Pegula may as well just named himself the GM as there's no way Adams is anything but an ownership puppet; if not, they would have conducted something resembling a GM search or hired someone with any sort of experience.

 

I see Buffalo hiring a GM like a few weeks before the draft. Save the money on one for the summer.  Its pennywise and pound foolish, but that's what I think they will do. 

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9 minutes ago, Commandant said:

I see Buffalo hiring a GM like a few weeks before the draft. Save the money on one for the summer.  Its pennywise and pound foolish, but that's what I think they will do. 

 

Botterill had two more years left on his contract so they're not really saving anything right now.  They'd have been better off leaving Botterill as the lame duck guy until offseason activity picks up in September.  They probably had to give Adams a raise with his new title (which they're calling permanent, not an interim tag) so this particular move is costing them money.  (They're saving by not replacing the scouts whose deals were up at the end of the month though.)

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17 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

Botterill had two more years left on his contract so they're not really saving anything right now.  They'd have been better off leaving Botterill as the lame duck guy until offseason activity picks up in September.  They probably had to give Adams a raise with his new title (which they're calling permanent, not an interim tag) so this particular move is costing them money.  (They're saving by not replacing the scouts whose deals were up at the end of the month though.)

 

Botterill was apparently fighting them on firing the scouts and other hockey ops personnel. 

They also are still paying Tim Murray (until the end of the month). 

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18 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Well, I was not one of those chronic complainers. I liked the team in 2010 and strongly felt that the 2014/15 team was "almost there." The thing is, I was looking for the latter team to make additional runs, building on the 2014/15 failures. You lose before you win; a team matures, learns, grows, and eventually breaks through. That takes more than two seasons, usually. Instead of those seasons being the beginning of something, they were the end of it. And now I'm being asked to look back upon a brief interlude of high-quality hockey and told I should be happy with two years amidst three decades of garbage.

 

The goal is not to "get back there," i.e., have a team knocking on the door for a couple of years, then disintegrate. The goal is not to just "have a shot." Rather the goal is to have a sustained run of excellence as one of the league's top teams over several seasons. Boston is the best example; Tampa, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Washington, and St. Louis are others: teams which, for roughly a decade, have consistently been in the mix as plausible Cup picks. They have better or worse seasons, better or worse playoffs, within that time-span, because sh*t happens, and because it's very hard to win a Cup; but on a year-in year-out basis, such teams are on all the lists of probably contenders, and are universally respected and feared as heavy-duty clubs to be reckoned with. The Habs have not been in this category since the early '90s.

 

What frustrates me is that a significant chunk of the Habs fanbase no longer seems to even recognize this as a goal, or else seems to think it is axiomatically impossible for the Habs to get there. Instead it's either wave pom-poms for mediocrity, or else fantasize about getting lucky and having a year where "everything goes just right." The loser mentality has become baked in.


On one hand you state that you weren’t a chronic complainer, which is true during that period of time, but on the other hand you then proceed to downplay how good some of our teams were during the span I noted. The media were never going to give the Habs credit regardless, in that we were always going to be a “surprise” if we did well, but it was only some people on here who labelled the Habs as a “tier two” team, in a way confirming that the Habs indeed would have needed something like “luck” to win it all.

 

No one is saying that getting back to where we were is necessarily enough, but those who were chronically complaining fit in to the category you described when you said some people can’t accept that a good team can be assembled, and still not win. 
 

Similar to the fact that you state that you were not a chronic complainer then, I will state that I am not akin to a Leafs fan in the present. I do not accept where we have been for the past few years. With that being said, what you are demanding is unrealistic. Apparently a team had to lose before they win and yet you claim that getting back to where we were in 2015 is not what we want. In fact it is. Because again, the team needs to get to the dance before it can move around. Regardless of the general manager, what you are asking for is almost impossible in the modern NHL.

 

The seasons that Boston or Tampa Bay actually do miss the playoffs are simply overlooked and these teams have Stamkos, Crosby, Ovechkin, etc. I understand that this is exactly the point. The Habs need more talent and we wish they had it. But those who every single season, would rather have the Habs miss the playoffs and get a decently high draft pick rather than “just make it and have a chance” will never be on the same page as myself. 
 

It’s not so much that I would be accepting defeat or mediocrity with such an expression. Not at all. I would be expecting and hopeful to win every round. Not blindly either, but if we were at the level that we were a few years ago, then the team actually would once again have a shot.

 

I think where we do agree is that once we get to that point, we would like to see perhaps some deadline moves that favor us, or continual improvement during the off season. That, I do agree with. I don’t however think it is a realistic goal to expect that we are just going to dominate the league head to toe each and every season. Those who wish this, will indeed be negative fans for the foreseeable and indefinite future. With such expectations, I am not sure they realize that they may never again be happy.

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No one expects the Habs to 'dominate the league from head to toe.' What I want is an organization that stands with the Bostons of the world as a consistent, elite contender. 

 

Because we have not had that since Savard - instead we have had about four failed or semi-failed rebuilds/retools - and because I am skeptical about MB's ability to build one - I am dissatisfied with the Habs.

 

It's not rocket science. 

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5 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

No one expects the Habs to 'dominate the league from head to toe.' What I want is an organization that stands with the Bostons of the world as a consistent, elite contender. 

 

Because we have not had that since Savard - instead we have had about four failed or semi-failed rebuilds/retools - and because I am skeptical about MB's ability to build one - I am dissatisfied with the Habs.

 

It's not rocket science. 


I think there have been many years in the 2000s where the Bruins and/or their fan base looked up to the Canadiens as being at the same level as their organization, if not even higher. This is partially due to miraculous goaltending by Theodore and company, and partially due to other playoff successes against them even if we truly were an underdog, but I know for a fact that there have been years in the 21st century, if not sustained for awhile, that we were superior to the Bruins as an organization.
 

They won a Stanley Cup in 2011 and nothing before then since 1972.  We also lost to them in game 7 overtime during the year that they went on to win the cup in 2011. I feel as though they thought we were their toughest opponent during that run.

 

They have admittedly had the ability to sustain a higher standard and the fact that we haven’t is not okay. 
 

Again, this overlooks the fact that in the 90s and early 2000s (probably until about 2007-2008) the Bruins were nothing to write home about. It’s not okay that we’re there now and they were there then, but it does demonstrate that they’ve been there as well. 
 

Then we finally get to the point that I’ve been debating and that is that in rebuttal someone will claim that while Boston didn’t win another cup between 1972 and 2011, their team was “built” well whereas any single time the Habs lose, it was because we were not an organization that stand with the elite of the world. 
 

Again, it’s being missed that indeed we were up there with the elite. When Price was the goalie of the NHL, the Habs were viewed in the manner in which you describe. It was simply the negative nancies or those who were perhaps too smart for their own good who “knew” the Habs weren’t in the same class as the Boston Bruins, as an organization. I believe that if not on other occasions, our core led by Gionta would have been well respected around the league (and we were getting free agents to sign) as well as once again, when Price was at his peak. 

 

It’s true that as Habs fans we often felt as though we were “one player away” rather than “fulfilled” as a team. But our team was built from the goaltending out and it just so happens that we’ve never really seen a sustained peak Price during the playoffs, outside of perhaps the season he got injured against the Rangers.
 

This discussion goes hand in hand with those who can’t see that a team can be good, and still not win. Those who oppose this view when it comes to the Habs simply often state that our goaltender shouldn’t be the highest paid player. I don’t believe this view is a fact though. It’s only viewed this way because for the Habs, it hasn’t worked out even when the team was good. 
 

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This article mentions a few UFAs the CH should target.

https://thehockeywriters.com/canadiens-free-agent-defense-targets-2020/

 

I think TJ Brodie is the better fit. I would also consider Edmundson out of CAR, he may be a surprise like Chiarot was. Finally, Dermott (RFA) in Toronto may be a younger target, maybe in a trade given TOR's cap problems :)

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2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

This article mentions a few UFAs the CH should target.

https://thehockeywriters.com/canadiens-free-agent-defense-targets-2020/

 

I think TJ Brodie is the better fit. I would also consider Edmundson out of CAR, he may be a surprise like Chiarot was. Finally, Dermott (RFA) in Toronto may be a younger target, maybe in a trade given TOR's cap problems :)


Krug is ideal (IMO) ... but I worry about the contract ... given a likely flat market I might offer 3 years at a reasonable salary (maybe $7 million) ... solves an immediate con Ernies and gives him a second shot at UFA.

 

Brodie just turned 30 ... and his (from what I could find) mysterious on-ice collapse at practice last November that kept him out for two weeks concerns me ... if he was willing to go short-term (2 years) it might be worth the risk

 

Edmundson seems to me to be another #4 (at BEST) but likely 5/6/7 defenceman ... similarly Dermott (he will cost draft picks as an RFA or assets in a trade) doesn't strike me as a top 4 defenceman.

 

 



 

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:


Krug is ideal (IMO) ... but I worry about the contract ... given a likely flat market I might offer 3 years at a reasonable salary (maybe $7 million) ... solves an immediate con Ernies and gives him a second shot at UFA.

 

Brodie just turned 30 ... and his (from what I could find) mysterious on-ice collapse at practice last November that kept him out for two weeks concerns me ... if he was willing to go short-term (2 years) it might be worth the risk

 

Edmundson seems to me to be another #4 (at BEST) but likely 5/6/7 defenceman ... similarly Dermott (he will cost draft picks as an RFA or assets in a trade) doesn't strike me as a top 4 defenceman.

 

 



 

yeah, the list of UFA LDs is slim. 

 

Looking at the top-25 UFA list:

   https://www.tsn.ca/uncertainty-the-story-for-2020-nhl-s-free-agent-frenzy-class-1.1466523

 

I think Holtby and Toffoli are my favourite targets for the CH. 

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1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

yeah, the list of UFA LDs is slim. 

 

Looking at the top-25 UFA list:

   https://www.tsn.ca/uncertainty-the-story-for-2020-nhl-s-free-agent-frenzy-class-1.1466523

 

I think Holtby and Toffoli are my favourite targets for the CH. 

 

IMO Holtby makes no sense unless they are going to move Price ... which is OK by me ... doubt he will sign as a backup, or at least not at anywhere near a reasonable salary ... Crawford (or maybe another Keith Kinkaid-like bargain basement option) ... I am curious to see Demchenko ... think he is better than his last season's stats show.

 

Toffoli is a nice player but, other than one 31 goal season, he is a 21 goal per 82 games player ... not the top 6 scorer the habs need ... unless (for example only) they were going to trade Domi for a #1-LHD ... Taylor Hall is closer to what the Habs need but even then, other than his one standout season, he is a 26g/82gm ... Mike Hoffman matches that and would likely be cheaper ... Dadonov has been slightly better since returning from the KHL (29g/82gm) and might be a good option, using the down market to keep the term and salary down ... an under-the-radar RFA option might be Oskar Lindbom (who pro-rated to 82 games had a 30 goal season).

 

 

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2 hours ago, DON said:

How will Sens make out tomorrow?

image.png

Hope they get screwed on both picks and the Phantom play-in Teams win.

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