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Metallica

What's management doing with how they're building this team????

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If they don't make the playoffs this year ( 4 of the last 5 year) , and Bergevin keeps his job, I'm done with being a die hard Habs fan.  I need a new direction to cheer for. 

 

Some people seem to be quite "OK" with mediocrity, but I'm done falling for the whole "next year we'll be better" routine. 

 

 

 

 

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In the last 10 plus seasons 3 teams have alternated cups.

Pitt chicago and LA

With 3 other teams who have been consistently top tier in the regular season but fallen short  have now put it together and able to win once

St.L Wash Boston

 

Go back another 15 years

And you can add 3 more juggurnaughts in

COL  Det and NJ

With a couple one time winners in

Carolina tampa Dallas and Ana

 

So in the last quarter century

6 teams have won multiple stanley cups

Chic 

Pitt

LA

CoL

DET

NJ

 

And a couple handfuls of one timers in

St.L Wash Bost

ANA TB Car Dallas

 

THE POINT IS... It is not easy to contend for Lord Stanley

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You are right that contending for the cup is not easy. What is easy is living the status quo and expecting the cup to come to you.

 

We need this LD badly and as much as it will sting, we have the assets to get that LD.

 

I like Suzuki and in no way want to trade him but we could live without him (this is an example not a suggestion). Would you give up Susuki and a first to get the right LD?

 

I would because I believe that being a bubble team is not enough and addressing our needs move us forward.

 

MB saw the holes in our team too. That is why Gardiner got an offer and Aho got the offer sheet.

 

We can do better and we should do better

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MB sees the holes. He just fails to fill them. Over and over and over.

 

Anyway, there is a difference between being a contender and winning a Cup. HEARTS's post elides that distinction. Teams like Vancouver (2011), the Rangers, Tampa, San Jose, and Nashville, have all been bona-fide heavy-duty contenders, reaching the Finals and consistently being regarded as teams with a legit chance to win it all. Boston has been to the Finals three times *and* managed a significant retool in the process.

 

The Habs have not been ranked in that category since 1994. The closest we came was 2014, and we haven't had a whiff since.

 

I'm not even asking for a Cup, fer heaven's sake. I'm asking for a team that moves in those circles - one of those teams that is widely feared, widely regarded as a contender, and is a genuine (not a long-shot) threat to make a deep run.

 

The idea that this is an unreasonable expectation doesn't stand up. The Bruins can do it. What's the Habs' excuse?

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

MB sees the holes. He just fails to fill them. Over and over and over.

 

Anyway, there is a difference between being a contender and winning a Cup. HEARTS's post elides that distinction. Teams like Vancouver (2011), the Rangers, Tampa, San Jose, and Nashville, have all been bona-fide heavy-duty contenders, reaching the Finals and consistently being regarded as teams with a legit chance to win it all. Boston has been to the Finals three times *and* managed a significant retool in the process.

 

The Habs have not been ranked in that category since 1994. The closest we came was 2014, and we haven't had a whiff since.

 

I'm not even asking for a Cup, fer heaven's sake. I'm asking for a team that moves in those circles - one of those teams that is widely feared, widely regarded as a contender, and is a genuine (not a long-shot) threat to make a deep run.

 

The idea that this is an unreasonable expectation doesn't stand up. The Bruins can do it. What's the Habs' excuse?

 

 

 

The Bruins went through a retool to get back to where they are now.

 

The habs team that made the conference final and had the price knee injury had some key pieces get old, get out of favour, etc...   the current squad is in  the midst of that retool.

 

Because the team isn't there yet doesnt mean it wont get there.  The bruins had some years out of the playoffs and a  pitiful 5 game first round loss to ottawa too.

 

Charlie mcavoy, jake debrusk, david pastrnak, these guys needed time to go.from prospects to players

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7 hours ago, Chris said:

They are a bubble team at best

 

They finally have good prospects, no reason to move them 

 

At the deadline when they are out of it, they need to acquire more picks and prospects, 

 

They have Byron Tatar can be moved at the deadline, 

 

the 2 big elephants in the room would be Price and Weber both of whom i believe said they wanted to win now, there window is closing. The habs aren't close, might be time to move them. 

 

If they miss the playoffs again, is that the end of MB, CJ and the coaching staff? 

I don't think anyone can say 100% for sure what is going to happen with Bergevin and the coaching staff if they miss the playoffs again.  I think it would be dumb to can any of them right now.  The plan was to retool the team.  That takes time.  More than a couple seasons.  If Molson agreed to that plan and then cans his GM before he is able to see it through, that would be stupid.  If Bergevin cans Julien and his coaching staff after he under-equipped them to compete for the playoffs, that would also be stupid.  

 

Patience is required.

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7 hours ago, Chris said:

They are a bubble team at best

 

They finally have good prospects, no reason to move them 

 

At the deadline when they are out of it, they need to acquire more picks and prospects, 

 

They have Byron Tatar can be moved at the deadline, 

 

the 2 big elephants in the room would be Price and Weber both of whom i believe said they wanted to win now, there window is closing. The habs aren't close, might be time to move them. 

 

If they miss the playoffs again, is that the end of MB, CJ and the coaching staff? 

Watch out you might get downvoted for this. I but I agree with you on price and weber.

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

The Bruins went through a retool to get back to where they are now.

 

The habs team that made the conference final and had the price knee injury had some key pieces get old, get out of favour, etc...   the current squad is in  the midst of that retool.

 

Because the team isn't there yet doesnt mean it wont get there.  The bruins had some years out of the playoffs and a  pitiful 5 game first round loss to ottawa too.

 

Charlie mcavoy, jake debrusk, david pastrnak, these guys needed time to go.from prospects to players

The big difference between Montreal and Boston retool is that Boston isn't handcuffed on only having to hire someone who is French. They can go out and get the best coach and gm for the job.

 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

The Bruins went through a retool to get back to where they are now.

 

The habs team that made the conference final and had the price knee injury had some key pieces get old, get out of favour, etc...   the current squad is in  the midst of that retool.

 

Because the team isn't there yet doesnt mean it wont get there.  The bruins had some years out of the playoffs and a  pitiful 5 game first round loss to ottawa too.

 

Charlie mcavoy, jake debrusk, david pastrnak, these guys needed time to go.from prospects to players

True 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I don't think it's the end of MB. As I've suggested several times before, expectations have grown absurdly low in Montreal. It seems to be enough to have a team that has the following characteristics:

 

1. It's plucky and serviceably entertaining

2. It's competitive most nights

3. It has a good prospect pool, so people can tell themselves, "just wait, in three or four years, we'll be great" - even though we have heard this mantra several times since 1995, and the projected "greatness" has not once materialized.

 

This raises the question, what should we do? What would be a better approach? What could a GM do to make a big difference?

  • Tank? (top draft choices are not guaranteed though due to lottery)
  • Trade? (sadly we don't know who would be willing to do what exactly kind of trade with us)
  • Sign? (UFAs haven't been keen on Montreal, is it possible to change that?)
  • Offer sheet? (try again, with more money?)
  • Scout? (improve draft choices or look for unsigned players?)
  • Coach? (hire a better coach than Julien?)
  • Laval? (what could we do there, apart from securing an ECHL franchise?)

While I would like to be more competitive, I don't see an obvious way to dramatically improve our fortunes? Not to say that Bergevin has been perfect (he hasn't) but if we somehow got a superstar GM, what would he be able to do to make a big difference over Bergevin? Am I missing something obvious?

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Any GM, whether Bergevin or someone new needs to evaluate the team’s weaknesses and address them. I’m not intending to beat a dead horse, but my perception is that the main issue that needs to be addressed involves the left side of our defence. I can understand not being able to find a bonafide #1, but what We need is someone better that Mete and while Mete is good, these players are out there. It’s no secret that solid level RHD are much more difficult to acquire than LHD. LHD are out there. Yes it would cost us something. I understand that teams have holes, and I can’t imagine being a team where goaltending is a hole for say, a decade or more. A team like a Philly has suffered through those pains so I guess one could say these things happen and fanbases have to be patient.  We’re lucky we have Price. The question was posed however, and my first demand of any GM, whether current or new, would be to utilize our cap space efficiently (as in actually spend it), and find an upgrade on Mete and I have nothing against Mete. That would be a start. 

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6 hours ago, Metallica said:

The big difference between Montreal and Boston retool is that Boston isn't handcuffed on only having to hire someone who is French. They can go out and get the best coach and gm for the job.

 

 

So like Claude Julien who coached them to their most recent Stanley Cup? 

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On 10/10/2019 at 2:02 PM, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I think Bergevin - uh-oh, now I'll get downvoted!! - has a pattern of being overly cautious with gifted players whose "character" does not fit the orthodox mode of old-school NHL robot. Hence, the dumb-ass bridge deal for Subban, and hence the reluctance to lock down Radulov. Stupid, but what can you do.

 

 

Bergevin is "stupid" for signing Subban to a team friendly bridge deal? Is Tampa stupid for signing Point to a bridge deal? How about Laine with Winnipeg? Boeser in Vancouver? Or should we have thrown all the money at a young and unproven Subban at the time? Do you know how the negotiations went, did Subban even want that? Tell us again how stupid Bergevin is. 

 

Or how about how Bergevin was "reluctant" in locking down Radulov. I could have sworn that Bergevin was one of the only GMs to even offer him a contract from the KHL. And then he even offered him a multi-year deal when he was a UFA that was similar to what he signed with Dallas. What's the problem again? Let's get our facts straight

 

On 10/10/2019 at 8:37 PM, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I dunno...I haven't made a study of it, but most teams seem to have had a MUCH easier time of adding #1C than the Habs. And a few teams have two legitimate #1C. I'm not saying that they are easy to acquire, but the Habs are probably an extreme outlier in terms of our pathological inability to draft, develop, or trade for one. Most organizations haven't found it *that* hard. (The Habs are reminiscent in this of the Vancouver Canucks' chronic ability to add bona-fide #1D - a problem that Quinn Hughes has finally solved, presumably. Hopefully KK is similar).

 

It is sort of like how Montreal seems to be able to always have an elite goalie, but other teams can't get someone to stop a beach ball. All of the #1 centers in the world can't stop the puck. I'd like to think that 70+ point Max Domi has something to say about your argument. How about Kotkaniemi in a couple years?

 

13 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I believe that, deep down, a huge portion of the fanbase has internalized the idea that the Habs (for some reason) cannot reasonably be expected to contend for a Cup. That is perfect for MB. He has managed to lower expectations sufficiently that he can reliably meet them. And there is the suspicion that the Kegmeister is mostly interested in the huge profits flowing in.

 

 

Could it be that some realize that it isn't 1977 and now there are 31 teams in a salary cap league? All things being equal, there is a 3.22% chance that any particular team will win the Cup. Even making the playoffs is a coin flip, but yes, let's dump on a GM that has actually been above average since 2012. 

 

9 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

MB sees the holes. He just fails to fill them. Over and over and over.

 

Anyway, there is a difference between being a contender and winning a Cup. HEARTS's post elides that distinction. Teams like Vancouver (2011), the Rangers, Tampa, San Jose, and Nashville, have all been bona-fide heavy-duty contenders, reaching the Finals and consistently being regarded as teams with a legit chance to win it all. Boston has been to the Finals three times *and* managed a significant retool in the process.

 

The Habs have not been ranked in that category since 1994. The closest we came was 2014, and we haven't had a whiff since.

 

I'm not even asking for a Cup, fer heaven's sake. I'm asking for a team that moves in those circles - one of those teams that is widely feared, widely regarded as a contender, and is a genuine (not a long-shot) threat to make a deep run.

 

The idea that this is an unreasonable expectation doesn't stand up. The Bruins can do it. What's the Habs' excuse?

 

 

 

Please tell us how you would fill the holes and tag Bergevin so he knows how to do his job. Is it through the draft? Well we got a few high picks, we drafted a "potential #1 center" in Galchenyuk, how did that work out? When he had another high pick, he "seen the hole" and reached a bit and picked Kotkaniemi. Do you hate that he tried to fill a hole and selected him? How about the hole at LD, do you hate how 4 out of his first 5 picks this draft year were LD? How about reaching for Romanov the year before? I could have sworn he also drafted Ryan Poehling as a center and he looks like he is a player. 

 

Let's talk UFAs. Do you remember just a couple months ago how he offered a contract to top center Matt Duchene AND left defenseman Jake Gardiner? Maybe you conveniently forgot that he tried to address the holes but sorry he didn't hold a gun to the player's head to sign here. He was however able to sign Ben Chiarot and Nick Cousins though, and they are NHL players so that helps "fill the holes".

 

How about trades. Traded for Domi and Danault, our top two centers. Did he not come out ahead in those deals? He also traded a left winger for another left winger, plus Nick Suzuki who was drafted as a center. "But he didn't try to address our needs!!"

 

He has offered contracts to UFAs, he has literally drafted to fill holes and he is on the winning side of pretty much every trade he has made, yet there is still a myth that he doesn't know what he is doing. This team right now is young, entertaining, has cap space, a top prospect pool and is competitive but yet that's not good enough to some. And no matter how much time I spend on a post like this, I will never change their mind. My advice is to watch the games, have fun, cheer loud and talk trash to other team's fans Otherwise not being a "serious contender", whatever that means, will make you a very cynical and depressing person.  

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Metallica said:

Watch out you might get downvoted for this. I but I agree with you on price and weber.

 

Maybe dont complain about votes and people wont downvote as often. 

 

Complaining and showing that it makes you mad is a sure way to encourage people to keep doing it.

 

But besides that... who cares?  They are imaginary numbers that mean nothing.  You cant trade in your points for anything.  They dont get redeemed for anything.  They arent airmiles or visa points or some shit.  They are just figments of your imagination.  I get downvoted all the time.  Do you think i care?  Nope... cause it means nothing.

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Listen, all I'm saying is that too many Habs fans seem to accept that it is somehow unreasonable to demand the Habs to become an elite, contending team - even though quite a few franchises have accomplished this feat.

 

The fact that several posters have responded to this proposition either by making excuses for the Habs or by exaggerating the difficulty involved in becoming an elite, contending team, proves my point.

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12 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Listen, all I'm saying is that too many Habs fans seem to accept that it is somehow unreasonable to demand the Habs to become an elite, contending team - even though quite a few franchises have accomplished this feat.

 

The fact that several posters have responded to this proposition either by making excuses for the Habs or by exaggerating the difficulty involved in becoming an elite, contending team, proves my point.

 

No one is saying that it is unreasonable to ask them to become an elite team. 

 

The idea is that it is unreasonable to ask them to do so, overnight. 

This team is in the midst of a retool, was one of the worst teams in the league in 2017-18.  One season isn't enough to fill all the holes. 

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29 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

No one is saying that it is unreasonable to ask them to become an elite team. 

 

The idea is that it is unreasonable to ask them to do so, overnight. 

This team is in the midst of a retool, was one of the worst teams in the league in 2017-18.  One season isn't enough to fill all the holes. 

 

Yeah, that seems fair. 

 

I still think my wider point about the fans stands, however. Witness the number of people defending Bergevin's seven years of failure on the grounds that things will start looking up around year 11.

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5 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

The fact that several posters have responded to this proposition either by making excuses for the Habs or by exaggerating the difficulty involved in becoming an elite, contending team, proves my point.

 

It's not easy: eleven of the current teams have never won the cup. Nine have not made it to the finals in the last 20 years (yeah, that includes us). If it were easy, we'd see more bottom-feeders launching themselves into elite status, and fewer GMs and coaches being fired.

 

That said, it's certainly not impossible. But there are very few shortcuts: the only one I can think of is the approach comparable to spending all your retirement savings in one fabulous night in Las Vegas. This is more or less what the Blue Jackets did last year, acquiring a bunch of high-calibre rentals and giving up picks and prospects. It only got them to second round, though, and this season pretty much all they have left from this attempt is a hangover.

 

Retooling a team to contend for multiple years takes time. I wasn't happy with what Bergevin was doing early in his tenure, but at this point, I think the direction is correct. And I honestly don't think there are a lot of huge steals out there to be had in trades for top-six forwards or top-four defencemen: all the clubs have professional scouting and advanced stats, and no one wants to lose big on a deal.

 

Yes, I want the Habs to contend. But I don't think we can be there this year, with any GM or any coach (or any owner). In the meantime, I will make do with enjoying the play of the team -- at least in those games when they don't frustrate me to no end.

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Retooling or revamping is fine, fans understand that. 

 

The question i have is there best 2 assets to bring elite young talent into the lineup with 1st rounders are just withering away getting old. 

 

Trade them or get them some talent, you have the all team leading wins goalie in franchise history probably wont even get a sniff of the cup in Montreal 

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5 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Yeah, that seems fair. 

 

I still think my wider point about the fans stands, however. Witness the number of people defending Bergevin's seven years of failure on the grounds that things will start looking up around year 11.

 

The question is how do you judge Bergevin. 

I've long said that coaches, GMs, scouts, etc... these people develop over the course of their careers just like players do. 

 

What Bergevin did earlier in his career is a lot less relevant to my evaluation of him than what he's done in the last 24 months.  And when we look at that time frame, basically from when we all knew the 2017-18 team was flawed and needed to be fixed until know, he's done a darn good job with his moves; both building up the main roster and the prospect pool at the same time.  Those recent results are encouraging and enough for me to want to see how he finishes the job.  

I made no secret that I wanted him fired two years ago, but he's changed my opinion of his work since that time. 

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46 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

 I will make do with enjoying the play of the team -- at least in those games when they don't frustrate me to no end.

Ditto!

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16 hours ago, illWill said:

 

So like Claude Julien who coached them to their most recent Stanley Cup? 

Let me as you something, do you think Bergevin on any other team with his track record would of been fired by now?

 

Also if we had a none French gm would they be getting as much as a pass as Bergevin gets?

 

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1 hour ago, Chris said:

Retooling or revamping is fine, fans understand that. 

 

The question i have is there best 2 assets to bring elite young talent into the lineup with 1st rounders are just withering away getting old. 

 

Trade them or get them some talent, you have the all team leading wins goalie in franchise history probably wont even get a sniff of the cup in Montreal 

 

As has been discussed here before, I don't think Price is tradeable (with his contract), even if that were the right thing to do right now. Weber? Maybe, if you retain some salary.

 

Whether that would be a good move or not, is debatable, and you'd get opinions on both sides. Maybe a good topic for the trade proposal thread?

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A bunch of teams would take price, 

 

I chance for the cup for 2-5 years is worth the contract. 

 

Oilers and Flames to name a few 

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1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

And I honestly don't think there are a lot of huge steals out there to be had in trades for top-six forwards or top-four defencemen: all the clubs have professional scouting and advanced stats, and no one wants to lose big on a deal.

It’s one thing to ask that your team rip off other teams in deals. This is an unrealistic demand. It’s a completely different thing to request that a team attempts to address needs.
 

Teams have holes. Other needs have already been addressed. Needs change over time. These are some of the rebuttals.

 

With that being said, a top pairing caliber LHD has been an issue since Markov left and Markov has been gone so long that there was the possibility to have a discussion about “bringing Markov back after all this time.”

 

Acquiring a top 4 defenseman would hurt. It would not be achieved by trading Hudon, Weise and a 3rd rounder. 
 

The issue is that most people are stating that this is a retool period but how can a team transition in quickest fashion out of this retool period? It’s one thing to say the future is bright but there are scenarios where the future becomes now even for those who are retooling. I understand how it’s likely that it takes time, but I don’t buy that it has to. 
 

This is not the trade proposal thread but if I combine a few different common thoughts amongst Habs fans, I think an example of something that could be done to speed up the process would be something like including Philip Danault in a trade for a top 4 defenseman. I understand that he can put up 50-60 points all the while being more defensively responsible than any other center we have, but 13-15 goals is not the production of a 1st line Center and for me, I think Domi, Kotkaniemi, Drouin in the worst case, are the types of players who could fill the role. At least better than Victor Mete can handle a top pairing defensive role.  On one hand, our Center depth has improved, but on the other hand, Danault is still filling up a spot on our top line and the thought I was suggesting that many Habs have is that Danault is not a top line Center. His value in a trade may be higher than a third line Center though. 
 

Those who are mentioning that we should speed up the retool are often mentioning that we should trade players like Price, or Weber but we should always keep those players who actually fill the role their are designated to play. Price and Weber are people you build around even for the next 5 years. If Weber is a second pairing guy by then, that’s fine. He’ll have more of an impact on the team than Danault as a third line Center. Right now, Victor Mete and Phillipe Danault are the two players playing in high value roles they shouldn’t be. The fact that they are playing in these positions, however, give them perceived value and so perhaps there could be a return of great value to two different teams when one of those players are the players involved. I’d rather keep Mete than Danault.

 

This is all to say that it is just an example but I think our biggest obstacles from being a competitive team are actually that we have someone of Mete’s caliber as our top left defense and someone of Danault’s caliber as our top line Center. They are both players I like, I just do not love their roles.
 

 

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