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Metallica

What's management doing with how they're building this team????

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16 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

 

As has been discussed here before, I don't think Price is tradeable (with his contract), even if that were the right thing to do right now. Weber? Maybe, if you retain some salary.

 

Whether that would be a good move or not, is debatable, and you'd get opinions on both sides. Maybe a good topic for the trade proposal thread?

 

You can't build a team with all kids and no veterans to lead them.  That is how you end up in an Edmonton situation. 

 

With Price and Weber, there is also no reason, given the way similar goalies and defencemen in the NHL have aged, why they can't be the starting goalie and a top 4 defenceman on a contending team in two years. 

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Why would 2 years from now be any different then the last 25? 

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1 hour ago, Chris said:

A bunch of teams would take price, 

 

I chance for the cup for 2-5 years is worth the contract. 

 

Oilers and Flames to name a few 

 

Price also has a full NMC -- would he really accept a trade to Oilers or Flames? It's not just his age and contract that make a trade challenging, it's the NMC.

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I'm not suggesting that we go and trade for a #1 LD (as amazing as that would be). A true #1 LD would cost us much more than we would ever give up (maybe Kman, Gallagher, first as an example).

 

The LD I'm thinking about is probably on the second pairing currently. They are offensively minded, can carry the puck out of the zone with ease, is a good passer, good skater and can land shots on net. This player has a downside that prevents them from being a true #1 - perhaps they loose coverage, perhaps they don't back check well - whatever it is...

 

This player would pair with Weber to drive offense and add another layer to the PP.

 

I think that we could comfortably give up one of our wingers, take your pick other than Gallagher and combine with picks or maybe the trading partner wants one of our LD as part of the package.

 

IMO the Habs are following the Vegas model and have a team with depth. Depth allows us to roll 4 lines and provide speed and fresh legs against teams that rely on 2 lines.

 

I think that we are close to being a playoff team and we should take steps to get there.

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1 hour ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

I think that we are close to being a playoff team and we should take steps to get there.

Why bring it up now, a Gallagher for top 4 d-man proposal?

Nothing has changed in last couple months and doubt any GM is panicking to deal away a top 4 d-man at the moment.

No one will know how close this team is to the playoffs for several months most likely.

An injury to a couple key players and team this could be well out of playoffs and will be just as well to wait till off-season to make any big hockey deal, offer sheet, or go for a UFA.

Just played another entertaining game and beat cup champs, we all know roster has couple holes; but so does 3/4 of other teams as well.

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14 minutes ago, Habber31 said:

One regulation win, and all is grand in Habs Land :sarcasm_on:

Giving up 4g/gm & having 29th ranked PK isnt so grand, but is very early yet.

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46 minutes ago, DON said:

Giving up 4g/gm & having 29th ranked PK isnt so grand, but is very early yet.

Lol, yup. 

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1 hour ago, DON said:

Giving up 4g/gm & having 29th ranked PK isnt so grand, but is very early yet.

 

The team gave up less than 30 shots and comtrolled 79% of scoring chances yesterday against the cup champs.  Its one game but thats a much better defensive performance from the team.

 

As for mete.  He had a really strong game.

 

Yes... its only one game.  But the entire season has only been 5 games.  Lets see where this goes before calling for all kinds of changes.

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Mete bad luck continues, even Rick Green or Craig Ludwig would get a deflection once or twice a year.

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20 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

You can't build a team with all kids and no veterans to lead them.  That is how you end up in an Edmonton situation. 

 

With Price and Weber, there is also no reason, given the way similar goalies and defencemen in the NHL have aged, why they can't be the starting goalie and a top 4 defenceman on a contending team in two years. 

If you trade Price and Weber, your veteran leaders in the locker room would be guys like Gallagher, Byron, Petry, Domi, Danault .

 

When we made our last locker culture change the young guys took over Pacioretty, Price, PK we only kept Plekenec and Markov.

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4 hours ago, Habber31 said:

One regulation win, and all is grand in Hab Land :sarcasm_on:

You trying to be a rebel in these forums like me and call it like you see it.

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On 10/12/2019 at 11:17 AM, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Yeah, that seems fair. 

 

I still think my wider point about the fans stands, however. Witness the number of people defending Bergevin's seven years of failure on the grounds that things will start looking up around year 11.

Your wider point included a team like Nashville reaching elite status but you failed to mention it took their GM Poille +20 years to get there. But MB has failed for 7 years. The bias is very telling! I'm all for criticism and demand for excellence but it needs to realistic.

 

Im sorry but I'd have to believe your biggest knock on MB all stems from the death blow of trading Subban for Weber. Cause everything seems to always get back to Weber declining or messing up a bridge deal for Subban etc.

I hate to break the news but Weber is not about to start playing with a cane instead of a stick in the very near future and the PK rumor of being on the block in Nash after a single season wasnt a rumour as he was moved dirt cheap after 2 seasons as a "salary dump"

 

As an example, your MB's "seven years of failure" include 

-3 × division titles

-2 x 2nd place overall in the East 

-1x 2nd  overall in the NHL

- 1 x eastern conf finals

-1 x 2nd round loss

- 4 of 7 playoff appearances

-3 of last 4 seasons not in playoffs (sad and brutal)

 

I would argue 3/4 of all GM's would love a resume like that. Now if we argued his inability to land the big fish, or his classic bottom barrel bargin acquisitions failing then OK. But there is a reason why he is a VERY highly regarded GM around the league... It's because he's good at his job. Now I'll wait for the "that was Bob Gaineys team etc.  blah blah ( but I will also add that we ran Big Bob out of town as well). 

 

Sure he's made mistakes and he should be held accountable but, every GM has. 

 

The point of my earlier post about past contenders was to stress  that only 6 teams in 25 years have been legit multi stanley cup winners/contenders 

Pitt-Chi-LA

Det-COL- NJ

(and all of them had multiple legit studs)

 

The honourable mentions

The Boston,STL,Wash,Ana and TB teams of the world all made mistakes/ came up short for years before finally winning it. But all had multiple, absolute elite talent.

The NyR team failed to win it all and has since completely rebuilt. SJ continues to be a great reg season team but now looks to have failed in the Marleau-thorton-pavelski era!

I also believe VAN has no part in this discussion as does Nashville.

 

Montreals record stated above showed we were almost there for a time. But it failed for many reasons like injury to Price and Markov or MB not adding to a decent secondary core. Keep in mind i say secondary core because none of our players were considered best in class except for maybe our goalie who was still young in year 1 of 7. The deeper you looked into that team MB inherited the more you realize the holes and flaws were countless. We had trouble scoring 5on5 we had no depth on defence after Markov and a still baby Subban as well as NO centers at all except plex just to name a few.  But far and away the problem was lack of elite 1st line talent that still holds us back today.

So to say MB failed to build on a decent core really means MB failed to bring in elite 1st line talent to add to decent second line talent and solid goaltending and 2 solid defencemen.

SO now we have started a new timeline. A retool, and thus far it's going very very well. We are young, we are loaded with young talent and have 11 more picks in what is quickly being touted as a very, very deep draft year. I'd have to believe Weber and Price are the perfect backbone for a new young team on the rise. Most importantly, MB has shown an ability to learn from past mistakes. Hes shown an ability to admit mistakes and address them. That alone should have us all a little less worried about him and his decision making moving forward?

 

Now if he can add to to this team with his abundance of assets and leveraged cap space I'm all for it. I'm also ok overpaying for said additions. BUT it has to be for elite talent.... Aho, Karlsson, Laine etc. But I say HELL NO to blown CAP on the Gardiner, Duschene etc. and I'm glad those 2 deals fell through.

 

 

I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE FOR THIS LONG POST.

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22 minutes ago, Metallica said:

You trying to be a rebel in these forums like me and call it like you see it.

I was trying to tread lightly, but what's the point. I love the Habs, no question, but this is a leaky team. 

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23 hours ago, Metallica said:

Let me as you something, do you think Bergevin on any other team with his track record would of been fired by now?

 

Also if we had a none French gm would they be getting as much as a pass as Bergevin gets?

 

No I dont.

 

22 hours ago, tomh009 said:

 

As has been discussed here before, I don't think Price is tradeable (with his contract), even if that were the right thing to do right now. Weber? Maybe, if you retain some salary.

 

Whether that would be a good move or not, is debatable, and you'd get opinions on both sides. Maybe a good topic for the trade proposal thread?

I'm 100% positive we would not have to retain any salary to move Weber. Firstly, his salary paid moving forward after this season is not that high and continues to decrease moving forward. I believe his signing bonuses are now over as well? And yes he has a higher AAV but considering the AAV of defencemen in 2019., his really isnt that high 

 

On 10/11/2019 at 6:19 PM, Metallica said:

The big difference between Montreal and Boston retool is that Boston isn't handcuffed on only having to hire someone who is French. They can go out and get the best coach and gm for the job.

 

CJ isnt French... he just speaks it. Also, he was the coach of Boston stanley cup champ team of the last 40 years  so ya bad example.

 

On 10/12/2019 at 4:54 PM, Commandant said:

 

The question is how do you judge Bergevin. 

I've long said that coaches, GMs, scouts, etc... these people develop over the course of their careers just like players do. 

 

What Bergevin did earlier in his career is a lot less relevant to my evaluation of him than what he's done in the last 24 months.  And when we look at that time frame, basically from when we all knew the 2017-18 team was flawed and needed to be fixed until know, he's done a darn good job with his moves; both building up the main roster and the prospect pool at the same time.  Those recent results are encouraging and enough for me to want to see how he finishes the job.  

I made no secret that I wanted him fired two years ago, but he's changed my opinion of his work since that time. 

Exactly...

 

And the team he inherited was missing elite talent that separates the pretenders from the contenders...

 

So his failure to secure elite talent in his early career to add to a very strong secondary core was his biggest early career failure.

 

MB 2.0 of the retool is doing just fine.

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21 hours ago, Chris said:

A bunch of teams would take price, 

 

I chance for the cup for 2-5 years is worth the contract. 

 

Oilers and Flames to name a few 

I think a bunch of teams would like to have Price, but can they fit him under the cap and is he willing to waive his NMC to go there?  The question for the Habs would be, are they getting the value they should for him?  Any trade involving Price or Weber will likely have to involve salary retention or taking back cap space.  I doubt Bergevin is even thinking about moving either one.   A lot of the fan base and the media would lose their minds.

Having said that,  I don't think Price and Weber should be untouchables.  If the right deal can be reached, I hope that the Habs would make the trade.

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31 minutes ago, Habber31 said:

I was trying to tread lightly, but what's the point. I love the Habs, no question, but this is a leaky team. 

I know been a fan since 89 but if I see something bad i call it and say something. I don't see this team getting into the playoffs with this D.

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53 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

I'm 100% positive we would not have to retain any salary to move Weber. Firstly, his salary paid moving forward after this season is not that high and continues to decrease moving forward. I believe his signing bonuses are now over as well? And yes he has a higher AAV but considering the AAV of defencemen in 2019., his really isnt that high 

 

I had to go and check Weber's contract on Capfriendly just now -- AAV of $7.8M, really not so high, you are correct. The only challenge is the seven years remaining on the contract, but starting three years from now the payout cost (for his then-current team) would be quite reasonable as Nashville would pick up most of the cost due to the front-loaded contract structure.

 

So I'll take back my comment about having to take back salary, and go look for a serving of crow for dinner!

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1 hour ago, Metallica said:

I know been a fan since 89 but if I see something bad i call it and say something. I don't see this team getting into the playoffs with this D.

 

Based on the fact that the only loss was Benn... and we signed chiarot.

 

They also have weber the full season instead of missing 2 months.

 

They also have kulak the full season instead of 6 weeks in.

 

And they finished 2 points out.

 

I dont see how this D is disqualifying from a playoff spot.

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I didn't down vote you, but Kulak is not a credible player, when you're trying to defend this D Corp. 

 

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2 hours ago, Habber31 said:

I didn't down vote you, but Kulak is not a credible player, when you're trying to defend this D Corp. 

 

 

His advanced.stats suggest he is a credible top 4 defenceman.  A number 5 at absolute worst.

 

You can believe whatever you want... but the Petry-kulak pairing was excellent last season and a legit top pair from their stats.

 

But that is also ignoring my main point which is that this is the same D that missed the playoffs by 2 points and was without Weber for 2 months last year.

 

As for the downvote... i didnt even notice til you said it.  I dont care about votes.

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I like Kulak and Petry pairing.

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2 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

His advanced.stats suggest he is a credible top 4 defenceman.  A number 5 at absolute worst.

 

You can believe whatever you want... but the Petry-kulak pairing was excellent last season and a legit top pair from their stats.

 

But that is also ignoring my main point which is that this is the same D that missed the playoffs by 2 points and was without Weber for 2 months last year.

 

As for the downvote... i didnt even notice til you said it.  I dont care about votes.

 

I don't know who's knickers you bunched up, but lately you seem to be instantly downvoted regardless of content, i've seen the same constant 2 downvotes on even your most insightful posts of late, that childish crap needs to stop.

 

 Clearly a couple haters are abusing the downvote system in a manner it wasn't intended..

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Problem with this D is the same as last years D and the year before that.

1) cant box out the front of the net

2) hard time clearing the zone 

3) can't set up the PP

4)they give up way too much 2 on 1 and break a ways.

 

Outside of Weber and Petry they don't produce points.

 

We don't get enough production from our D. Also nit deep enough if we get injuries there.

 

Mete still needs more development but isn't a top pairing guy more of a 4-6 kind of guy right now but needs more time.

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