Habs77 Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 JUNE 23, 2003STARS SHOPPING GUERIN. DALLAS MORNING NEWS: Mike Heika and Richard Durrett reports Bill Guerin's agent has confirmed the Stars are indeed trying to shop his client. Agent Bob Murray says the club is looking at several different economic options, one of them moving his client. Murray says the club has not yet asked him and Guerin to waive the winger's "no-trade" clause. Guerin has four years remaining on a contract that pays him $8.6 million per season. Spector's Note: At least now we've got confirmation from someone close to Guerin about what's really going on. Personally, I'm surprised by this. Just one year out from signing Guerin to a huge deal, the Stars are considering dumping him as a cost-cutting move. And some folks wonder why I rail against the fiscal irresponsibility of certain NHL teams! All I can say is, good luck finding a taker for huge salary. Most of the big-market teams have the same concerns as Dallas, and they too are trying to move high-salaried stars in preparation of the next Collective Bargaining Agreement. When I heard this I wondered if the Habs might entertain the thought of acquiring the power forward they've always wanted. 8.6M for the next 4 years... steep price to be sure. Then I remembered that no later than late last year we went hard after Owen Nolan who had a pretty ugly contract himself... and we're talking about an old, beat up version of Nolan here. So just a few months ago we saw GG was still willing to spend big, despite the talk of reducing payroll and the looming new CBA. Add the Gainey connection.. if anyone can deal with the Stars it's him. Or perhaps instead of Gainey's arrival making this deal more likely, maybe the opposite is true. Maybe Gainey disagrees with AS, that spending that much in NHL's current context is not a good idea. Who knows. If we can send a Breezer, Czerk, Audette (the yoyo effect hehe.. back to Dallas now that Hitch is gone), Dykhuis, McKay... at least some unwanted salary going back the other way, to me this could work. Also, since Dallas is desperate to dump salary we'd get a bargain in terms of the assets needed to acquire Guerin. Unlikely?.. of course, but there's a slim slim possibility here IMO. I'd also check out Guerin's health, he had a nasty leg injuy last year... it was very serious. I'd make sure Dallas is not trying to dump damaged goods to an unsuspecting team. P.S. I hate Guerin's guts, he's one of the cheapest dirtiest players in the game. And yet he's exactly what we need... can you imagine Koivu's face when he looks over to his winger and sees Guerin instead of Audette?... Can you imagine this? Kastitsyn - Koivu - Guerin Zednik - Urquhart/Higgins - Perezhogin Bulis - Higgins/Lapierre - Ward (I'd imagine Hossa would be involved in landing Guerin, packaged with a Breezer/Audette/Czerk/McKay/Dackell/Juneau/Sundstrom/Dykhuis/Traverse.) You gotta let yourself dream sometimes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puck7x Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Like you said... The stars are trying to "dump" salary , they wouldnt want to take on guys like Brisebois/Mckay/etc who have big contracts (even if they had too , they wouldnt...) ... How does it help Dallas if they trade Guerin to Montreal for Hossa + players combining for 6 million in contracts or something? It doesnt help them... Not much anyways. And if the habs are freeing up room for Guerin they'd probably trade Brisebois/McKay/etc to teams other then Dallas in seperate deals... Its one thing to dump a contract but why should Dallas knowingly take it up the ass from Montreal? They should give us Guerin , and take all our garbage which makes combined about the same as Guerin? If Dallas HAS to take back a big contract in exchange for Guerin they'll take back a big cotnract of a good player (Similar to the Jagr/Lindros deal) Anyways Guerin blows , and I dont want him (Has Nothing to do with my hatred of him ... He is injury prone and would be our highest paid player but NOT our best player) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs77 Posted June 24, 2003 Author Share Posted June 24, 2003 Originally posted by puck7xLike you said... The stars are trying to "dump" salary , they wouldnt want to take on guys like Brisebois/Mckay/etc who have big contracts (even if they had too , they wouldnt...) ... How does it help Dallas if they trade Guerin to Montreal for Hossa + players combining for 6 million in contracts or something? It doesnt help them... Not much anyways. And if the habs are freeing up room for Guerin they'd probably trade Brisebois/McKay/etc to teams other then Dallas in seperate deals... Its one thing to dump a contract but why should Dallas knowingly take it up the ass from Montreal? They should give us Guerin , and take all our garbage which makes combined about the same as Guerin? If Dallas HAS to take back a big contract in exchange for Guerin they'll take back a big cotnract of a good player (Similar to the Jagr/Lindros deal) Anyways Guerin blows , and I dont want him (Has Nothing to do with my hatred of him ... He is injury prone and would be our highest paid player but NOT our best player) I said ONE of those players... not all of them obviously. And it still makes sense for them to pick up one or 2 of our guys... because their contracts expire within a year or 2 compared to 4 years. Big difference... you gotta look at length of contract as much as the amount. It all depends if someone out there is willing to take on Guerin's salary without sending at least some salary back... with the budgets these day I highly doubt it. And you say Habs would then dump our deadwood elsewhere... as if they could. They have use this trade to dump at least one of these guys, that goes without saying. As for Guerin the player... all I'm saying is that he's better than the aging and similarly high-priced Nolan we pursued strongly last year. Of course this has virtually no chance of happening, but I think given last year's Nolan situation it has to be considered a possibility... no matter how slim the chances are. And I have a theoretical question while on the subject... who would help this team more, Hatcher or Guerin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puck7x Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Ohhhh only ONE of the players , I thought you meant 3 or 4 ... Alright then nevermind my last post. Who would help us more Guerin or Hatcher? ... This might not be the popular choice but I say Hatcher. - Leadership abilities - A mentor for Hainsey/Komisarek - Stabalizes our defense (RD especially). - Signing him will make other teams respect Theodore more (meaning that they'll think twice before running him) Offense starts from the defense , so I'll take Hatcher. How would we be able to feed Guerin the puck anyways if we cant get it out of our own zone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 That's a tough one. I put Guerin in the category of "guy you hate, but would love to hate him if he played for your team". He'd also open up so much more room up front for guys like Koivu. But at similar salaries, given the age (even though Guerin and Hatcher are only a year apart), the Habs need a big imposing dman in their own end. Komisarek is still learning the ropes in the NHL. I think Hatcher would be a better fit in Montreal, at the moment. To bring in a top notch, proven, character team guy like Hatcher would be great. At least Hatcher doesn't beat up his own teammates...hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs77 Posted June 24, 2003 Author Share Posted June 24, 2003 Obviously it would be nice to have Hatcher back there... but looking at our team (and prospects at each position) I gotta go with Guerin. We have a good defensive core in the making, while we still have a glaring lack of size/grit up front. (on the team as well as the prospect pool) I say think about poor Koivu, and go with Guerin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Oh yeah, and even though I know it's a completely hypothetical situation, the odds of Guerin waiving his no-trade to play in Montreal would seem kinda slim. And speaking of dumping $$, maybe the Habs can send Breezy to Carolina, since Markov is playing hardball...(although, as usual, the Habs would have to eat quite a bit of Breezy's salary, since Markov wants 3.2M) Now back to Hatcher...how bad a 1-2 punch on the RD would that be for teams, you get done dealing with Hatcher, then Komisarek's on the ice. Then, for the relaxing shift, Rivet comes out for a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puck7x Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Originally posted by Habs77We have a good defensive core in the making, while we still have a glaring lack of size/grit up front. (on the team as well as the prospect pool) We have good defensive prospects , but they will never be any good if we dont surrond them with good coaches and quality veteren players (Like Hatcher) , they have to learn how to play in the NHL from someone , I dont know about you but I hate the thought of Brisebois/Rivet and Rick Green teaching Komisarek/Hainsey how to play NHL hockey ... Look at Jackman in St Louis , how good would he be without MacInnis? ... Even Pronger can be used as an example , only after he went to St Louis (and played with Al) did he start to dominate. [Edited on 2003-6-24 by puck7x] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowpeb Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Quite honestly I'd love to see both of them in a Habs uniform. It would immediately give us a legit top line in Zednik - Koivu - Guerin. I agree 100% with Puck that Hatcher is exactly what we need for our defense. Both because of his physical and defensive play and also because I think we need him around Komi, Hainsey and Souray. He would be another American in our defense and may have develop a connection with Komi and Hainsey. Our defense has been horrible for too long now. Theo needs help... Now obviously money is the limiting issue. Realistically we probably can't get either one of these guys. It may be possible that we can get one if GG is willing to add payroll. The chances of us getting both are slim to none. If we were able to clear up about 8 million in salary then we might be able to get both. I think the Gainey connection has to mean something in dealing with both players. Although it probably means more in a trade for Guerin. Would it be possible to do a sign and trade for Hatcher and including Guerin in the deal? It would cost us more in a trade obviously but it would allow us to clear up some salary in the deal. Something like: Guerin and Hatcher for Hossa, Brisebois, McKay and ???(possibly another prospect like Plekanec or a pick in next years draft). Dunno, just threw that together pretty quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dahabs111 Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Something like: Guerin and Hatcher for Hossa, Brisebois, McKay and ???(possibly another prospect like Plekanec or a pick in next years draft). boy oh boy...talk about dreaming!!!....I realize this is just talk...just fantasy but .....we would be thrilled...and shocked to get either one of these players.....there's no way in hell of getting both....very little chance of getting one...... players don't come to Montreal anymore....look at all the great players we've gotten in the past few years...(sarcasm) we have to be a successful team to attract good players...we have to have good players to have a successful team..... i think our best chance of success is to have an over achieving team full of prospects having a great season....build from within....get a little success going....a little excitement....and make the Habs a team that stars want to play on ps....Happy St. Jean Baptiste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs77 Posted June 24, 2003 Author Share Posted June 24, 2003 Not in a million years can we get both... we're already pushing it in a major way by even entertaining the thought we might get one. About the comparison discussion... I said I'm pretty comfortable with our D, like I said. With the Markov/Komi/Hainsey kids trio and Souray/Rivet as the young vets... that's 5 guys I'm comfortable with playing on a regular basis. Quintal can manage another year, then Beauchemin/Archer/Korneev will start coming into play, then eventually O'Byrne. Bringing in a UFA like Hatcher would bring the kids' ice-time down, which I am not a fan of... If you want to sign Hacher then trade away Souray, that I could live with a lot better. Or if we find out Souray's wrist will force him to retire... then Hatcher would become a more important signing than Guerin. But assuming Souray is ok... then Guerin would be more useful to us IMO in that he'd finally give our offense an identity... we'd finally a 1st line worthy of the name (Kastitsyn-Koivu-Guerin). And as for veteran D man to show the kids the ropes... I think a 2-4M vet can do that just as well, no need to spend 8M for "showing the kids the ropes". As for coaches, change the D coach then get Guerin P.S. I also agree the fact Guerin needs to agree to waive his no-trade clause is a bigger hurdle than than the money or the assets involved. The only reason I think we'd have any chance in hell he'd ever do that was Gainey, and the fact he knows 1st hand how good this team's goalie is. We know the chances of this are below 1%, but it being the slow off-season with July 1st upon us it becomes a worthy topic of discussion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowpeb Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Couple things: First: I did say our chances of getting both were slim to none. I believe I also said before it could even be considered we would need to clear up 8 million in salary. So my dream of getting both was just a hope and prayer. I was also talking about TRADING for both guys so the issue of "stars not wanting to play here" is limited by the fact that they'd be traded here and have little choice. I also think having Gainey as our GM increases our potential at getting star players to sign. I know that Habs77 likes our young trio and Souray, Rivet and Quintal to be the vets. However, we still don't know what Souray's status will be to start the season. We also don't know if Hainsey and/or Komi can be stick all year. Hatcher would look VERY good on our defense for a number of years...especially once Quintal is gone. Personally, if I had to choose between Guerin and Hatcher right now I'd take Hatcher. Our D is a bigger hole IMO. Plus, he's cheaper then Guerin and helps protect our number 1 investment(Theodore). Yes, I realise that our chances at either are slim but in theory I'd rather take Hatcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs77 Posted June 24, 2003 Author Share Posted June 24, 2003 I was also talking about TRADING for both guys so the issue of "stars not wanting to play here" is limited by the fact that they'd be traded here and have little choice. Guerin has a no-trade clause so he does have a major say in where he goes, and Hatcher is a UFA... so the reality of the situation is that both have the choice to say no. I do agree that Gainey helps our chances, but if I'm a player: Gainey is real nice... but Theo would be the only reason I'd consider coming. Now that I think of it Gainey knows Hatcher, but Guerin just came over last year when Gainey was merely a consultant... I doubt they ever even spoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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