Do fans and management rely on Price too much to hide team weaknesses???

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

10 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

In net or just as a player in general? I agree with you if you're talking about in net. But I would put Koivu up their as a superstar.

 

I loved Koivu, but he was far from a superstar. The very fact that you identify him as our best FW of the post-Houle era shows how far Montreal has been from having any really top-end talent other than Price.

[BCHabnut]

11 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I loved Koivu, but he was far from a superstar. The very fact that you identify him as our best FW of the post-Houle era shows how far Montreal has been from having any really top-end talent other than Price.

I think markov would be next after price.  But no superstar. Markov was our best elite player after price since roy left

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

33 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

I think markov would be next after price.  But no superstar. Markov was our best elite player after price since roy left

 

Markov was outstanding, no question. But in a list of top defencemen of his era, would he even crack the top 10?

 

In terms of real superstardom, outside of Price, we've had glimpses, but never the real thing sustained over a number of years. E.g.,

 

-Theodore had one great season and a couple of strong ones, but flamed out spectacularly and spent most of his career as a serviceable journeyman. A momentary superstar at best.

-Koivu before his knee blew out was emerging as a top-5 NHLer. Didn't last, because the injury permanently damaged him.

-Kovalev had one dominating season (2008) in which he terrorized the league single-handedly. But that was the outlier to a four-year stint that otherwise ranged from good to comically disastrous.A temporary superstar only.

-PK Subban was explosive, won a Norris, and hit his peak with three stunning years of stellar performance - but people were reluctant to call him a 'superstar' partly because he was so brash in calling *himself* that. In any case, the Habs couldn't get rid of him fast enough because he rubbed the egos of old school nut sacks the wrong way.

 

Indeed, Subban is the closest the Habs actually came, after Houle, to someone who was consistently a legit top-5 player at his position in the league. 

[Habsfan89]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I loved Koivu, but he was far from a superstar. The very fact that you identify him as our best FW of the post-Houle era shows how far Montreal has been from having any really top-end talent other than Price.

That's because we got lucky and pick 5th over all that year.  Top five picks are usually elite players. Galchenyuk was supposed to be that but we didn't develop him properly.

 

Our drafting was so bad those years under Houle I think Markov and Koivu were  the only player that came out of it.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Habsfan89

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

3 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

A vezina is given to best goalie.  Not the one with the most wins.  So yeah... prove my point there.

of course it goes to the best goalie. But, The goalies record plays a major role in that determination as well. Just as in does in the MLB with pitchers. To suggest anything less would be dishonest and a distortion of facts as well as the history of the position to promote whatever it is your trying to say. Now this thread has been all over the place but the wins for goalies has been debated because I suggested Price was the worst starter in 2017/2018 and you sighted Darling and Anderson being worse then price because of inferior save percentage.

 

A) Darling was not the starter as you stated.

Darling 40 starts

13W 21 L .888%

Ward 42 starts

23W 14L .906%

clearly this was committee goaltending and Ward was the better goalie. Funny you mention Darling but leave out Ward!!

 

B) The fact is  Price was the worst  starter in the 2017/18 season.

 

Anderson won 23 of his 55 starts good for 42% Of his starts and a whopping 82% of the teams wins. Compared to condons 5 wins on 26 starts. Only 19%

YES YOUR RIGHT his S% was only .898 compared to Prices .900 ( a difference of 0.002) big deal!!!!!

 

so when save percentage is essentially the same... what then?

 

Anderson starts 7 more games ,wins 7 more times and faced 240 more shots. And clearly gave his very bad team a way better chance to win. Compare

 

Price won 16 of his 48 starts good for a magical 33% of his starts compared to Montoya winning 67% of  starts niemi winning 41% of his and lindgren the lowest at 28%

 

All the while Price had the worst Save percentage on his own team of the 4 goalies.

 

 

To top that off the Vezina last year was given out by GM’s and guess who won? Vasliensky

 

he finished 

 

1st in starts

1st in WINS

4th in shutouts

6th in save percentage 

9th in GAA

 

not Bishop who for example had a better S% and GAA

 

Meanwhile in reality world the same guys saying wins dont matter are celebrating Prices milestone all time WINS record!

 

 

 

 

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Markov was outstanding, no question. But in a list of top defencemen of his era, would he even crack the top 10?

 

In terms of real superstardom, outside of Price, we've had glimpses, but never the real thing sustained over a number of years. E.g.,

 

-Theodore had one great season and a couple of strong ones, but flamed out spectacularly and spent most of his career as a serviceable journeyman. A momentary superstar at best.

-Koivu before his knee blew out was emerging as a top-5 NHLer. Didn't last, because the injury permanently damaged him.

-Kovalev had one dominating season (2008) in which he terrorized the league single-handedly. But that was the outlier to a four-year stint that otherwise ranged from good to comically disastrous.A temporary superstar only.

-PK Subban was explosive, won a Norris, and hit his peak with three stunning years of stellar performance - but people were reluctant to call him a 'superstar' partly because he was so brash in calling *himself* that. In any case, the Habs couldn't get rid of him fast enough because he rubbed the egos of old school nut sacks the wrong way.

 

Indeed, Subban is the closest the Habs actually came, after Houle, to someone who was consistently a legit top-5 player at his position in the league. 

I agree  except for  PK. He was/is not better then Markov was/is.

Injuries and the lockout derailed what would of could of been (projection) an absolute slam dunk elite/star career.

[hab29RETIRED]

3 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

That's because we got lucky and pick 5th over all that year.  Top five picks are usually elite players. Galchenyuk was supposed to be that but we didn't develop him properly.

 

Our drafting was so bad those years under Houle I think Markov and Koivu were  the only player that came out of it.

Koivu was a savard pick and could have been a top 10 player if he hadn’t blown out his knee - he was either leading the league or top 3 at the time.

[hab29RETIRED]

3 hours ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

I agree  except for  PK. He was/is not better then Markov was/is.

Injuries and the lockout derailed what would of could of been (projection) an absolute slam dunk elite/star career.

Subban came up when markov was the main man and benefited from it.  Markov came up when brisebois and other 4th rate dmen were all the habs had.  Markov made pylons like Souray and Komisorik rich men and really didn’t have an elite d partner until Subban came along.

[BCHabnut]

I always looked at markov as a poor man's lindstrom. He was already in the right place and made the right choice. My favourite defenseman since chelios. 

[Habsfan89]

1 hour ago, BCHabnut said:

I always looked at markov as a poor man's lindstrom. He was already in the right place and made the right choice. My favourite defenseman since chelios. 

He was great offensively but on the D side he was too soft. Which is why I think he always got over look. 

[Habsfan89]

3 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Koivu was a savard pick and could have been a top 10 player if he hadn’t blown out his knee - he was either leading the league or top 3 at the time.

I thought he was, wasn't sure didn't feel like looking it up.

 

But that tells you how bad drafting and player development was under Houle.

[BCHabnut]

16 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

He was great offensively but on the D side he was too soft. Which is why I think he always got over look. 

I never saw this.  He made great defensive plays.  Great work the stick.  Excellent positioning. Didn't crush guys but that wasn't his game.

[Habsfan89]

13 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

I never saw this.  He made great defensive plays.  Great work the stick.  Excellent positioning. Didn't crush guys but that wasn't his game.

Didn't hit a lot . He would always go for the stick lift rather than the body check. 

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

35 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Didn't hit a lot . He would always go for the stick lift rather than the body check. 

Just because you dont hit alot doesn't mean you arent good on defense. His defensive stick work was top level. Maybe that's why he gets the poor man's Lidstrom talk. I thought his d game was equally as good as his O... maybe even better.

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, BCHabnut said:

I never saw this.  He made great defensive plays.  Great work the stick.  Excellent positioning. Didn't crush guys but that wasn't his game.

He got overlooked because he played in crap teams.  The fact that Souray and Komi were able to cash in big time after playing with him and both flamed out with their new teams, is a testament to how great a dmen Markov was.

[hab29RETIRED]

52 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Didn't hit a lot . He would always go for the stick lift rather than the body check. 

So did lidstrom.  I love Larry Robinson and his bone crushing hits, his offensive and defensive ability, but lidstrom was the better player.  And th is is coming from someone who idolized the 70’s habs.

[illWill]

7 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Subban came up when markov was the main man and benefited from it.  Markov came up when brisebois and other 4th rate dmen were all the habs had.  Markov made pylons like Souray and Komisorik rich men and really didn’t have an elite d partner until Subban came along.

 

The first thing in like 10 years that I agree with you on

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Even before his name came up I was going to mention that on Detroit, Markov would have been Niklas Lidstrom.

 

Fun fact: Andrei Markov played 990 games and Shea Weber has played 931 games. After that amount of games played, they both sit with an equivalent lifetime .578 points per game average. Tied for 60th all time amongst defensemen.

[Commandant]

On 11/3/2019 at 11:26 AM, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

of course it goes to the best goalie. But, The goalies record plays a major role in that determination as well. Just as in does in the MLB with pitchers. To suggest anything less would be dishonest and a distortion of facts as well as the history of the position to promote whatever it is your trying to say.

 

So you agree with CC's point then... if Price has the most wins in Habs history, that means he is the best goalie in Habs history. 

 

Cause you can't have it both ways.... either Wins are the most important goalie stat, and so that makes Price the best Habs goalie ever. 

Or 

Wins are based on a number of factors, a majority of which are not in the goalies control, and thus should be a team stat. (How many shots the team gives up, how hard they are, how many goals the team scores, how many games played, etc.... none of these are in the goalies control). 

 

This has been recognized in baseball as 

Felix Hernandez won the 2010 CY Young with a 13-12 record; and

Jacob DeGrom won the 2018 CY Young with a 10-9 record. 

 

People in baseball are recognizing that judging the best pitcher as the one with the most wins is silly.

 

Recognizing that the same applies to goalies in the NHL... that using advanced stats like High Danger  Save Percentage, medium Danger save percentage, Goals Saved Above Average, WAR, and other advanced metrics are better for judging the quality of goalies than simple win-loss records.  John Gibson was probably the best goalie in the NHL last season, but based on the fact the team in front of him was a dumpster fire,  people look at wins and losses and GAA and other traditional stats don't recognize that. 

The sooner we use stats that isolate individual performance and take out the variations that come from the team in front of the goalie, the better we will be able to judge which goalies are better than others, by how much, and what they should be worth, and trust me, every team in the NHL is working towards figuring these things out. 
 

[Habsfan89]

On 11/4/2019 at 12:48 PM, Commandant said:

 

So you agree with CC's point then... if Price has the most wins in Habs history, that means he is the best goalie in Habs history. 

 

Cause you can't have it both ways.... either Wins are the most important goalie stat, and so that makes Price the best Habs goalie ever. 

Or 

Wins are based on a number of factors, a majority of which are not in the goalies control, and thus should be a team stat. (How many shots the team gives up, how hard they are, how many goals the team scores, how many games played, etc.... none of these are in the goalies control). 

 

This has been recognized in baseball as 

Felix Hernandez won the 2010 CY Young with a 13-12 record; and

Jacob DeGrom won the 2018 CY Young with a 10-9 record. 

 

People in baseball are recognizing that judging the best pitcher as the one with the most wins is silly.

 

Recognizing that the same applies to goalies in the NHL... that using advanced stats like High Danger  Save Percentage, medium Danger save percentage, Goals Saved Above Average, WAR, and other advanced metrics are better for judging the quality of goalies than simple win-loss records.  John Gibson was probably the best goalie in the NHL last season, but based on the fact the team in front of him was a dumpster fire,  people look at wins and losses and GAA and other traditional stats don't recognize that. 

The sooner we use stats that isolate individual performance and take out the variations that come from the team in front of the goalie, the better we will be able to judge which goalies are better than others, by how much, and what they should be worth, and trust me, every team in the NHL is working towards figuring these things out. 
 

When comparing wins for goaltenders on habs  when it comes to Price would you take out S/O wins, since their wasn't any back then? Price's S/O wins should be marked as ties. 

[Commandant]

10 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

When comparing wins for goaltenders on habs  when it comes to Price would you take out S/O wins, since their wasn't any back then? Price's S/O wins should be marked as ties. 

 

Even then, he's still top 2, and may have even become number 1 recently. 

 

None of this changes my point. 

 

Wins and Losses are done by a team.  No goalie has ever gotten a win when his teammates scored 0 goals.  its not possible to get a win without some help, somewhere. 

 

That's why its a team stat, not a goalie specific one and goalies are better judged on individual metrics that isolate and remove the team play in front of them. 

[Habsfan89]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

Even then, he's still top 2, and may have even become number 1 recently. 

 

None of this changes my point. 

 

Wins and Losses are done by a team.  No goalie has ever gotten a win when his teammates scored 0 goals.  its not possible to get a win without some help, somewhere. 

 

That's why its a team stat, not a goalie specific one and goalies are better judged on individual metrics that isolate and remove the team play in front of them. 

Well geese captain obvious you think.

 

But the team has gotten a tie.

 

You're a habs fan you out of all people should know how important a goaltender is when it comes to wins and losses. Our team's were built around goaltending. 

 

Without strong goaltending we don't get as much wins as we do.

[Commandant]

 

9 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Well geese captain obvious you think.

 

But the team has gotten a tie.

 

You're a habs fan you out of all people should know how important a goaltender is when it comes to wins and losses. Our team's were built around goaltending. 

 

Without strong goaltending we don't get as much wins as we do.

 

You keep accusing me of things I never said.  Please, take the time to read what I actually write, and not accuse me of saying things I haven't. 

 

I never said that goaltending wasn't important to winning, i get mad at people who only look at wins and think nothing else matters.

I said that when using stats to judge goalies and decide who is better than others, wins/losses shouldn't be a stat that should be used.  

 

So please stop trying to ride the lightning and making strawmen out of what you think my posts say and then arguing against it.... because that is not what I wrote and you'll be unforgiven.

 

So lets turn the page and move on. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Right. Let's just agree that

 

1. The Habs have structural weaknesses, especially at LD.

2. Management has been very slow to address those, seemingly content to eke out a season as a bubble team and hope for the best.

3. This sometimes does put a lot of pressure on goaltending.

4. Price is the team's franchise player.

5. Price is not the Price of 2014.

 

I would add (6) Price is still an elite NHL starter, top-5 on most people's lists. But I think that'd be a bridge too far for some posters here, who seem to see Price as a "problem."

[hab29RETIRED]

50 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Right. Let's just agree that

 

1. The Habs have structural weaknesses, especially at LD.

2. Management has been very slow to address those, seemingly content to eke out a season as a bubble team and hope for the best.

3. This sometimes does put a lot of pressure on goaltending.

4. Price is the team's franchise player.

5. Price is not the Price of 2014.

 

I would add (6) Price is still an elite NHL starter, top-5 on most people's lists. But I think that'd be a bridge too far for some posters here, who seem to see Price as a "problem."

I think Price is still an elite goalie, but I wouldn’t consider him tip 5 anymore.  Anyone who has as a top is basing it on his past reputation, or salary.