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Do fans and management rely on Price too much to hide team weaknesses???


Habsfan89

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27 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

Give it up.... wins is in fact a stat for goalies...

 

Plus/minus is a stat for players. 

 

In 2019, no smart analyst judges a player based on it... they use much better stats. 

Same with wins/losses for goalies.... smart analysts recognize that save percentage is far more important, along with things like GSAA, and other advanced stats... but if you want to judge a goalie by wins/losses instead, that's fine, but I'm not going to take it seriously.

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40 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Carey Price has, what, the second most wins of any goalie in Habs history, right? 

 

So by this logic he must be a pretty frigging amazing goalie. The end 😆

 Actually 1st

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4th in points though, behind Roy, Dryden and Michel Larocque. 🙂

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1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

4th in points though, behind Roy, Dryden and Michel Larocque. 🙂

 

Right. Price's wins include OT and SO wins, which would have been ties for most of the existence of the NHL.

 

In terms of career wins (or career goals, or points etc) the thing to keep in mind is that the NHL season is now much longer than they used to be. Vezina started every game during his career -- but that was only 24 games.

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10 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

 

Right. Price's wins include OT and SO wins, which would have been ties for most of the existence of the NHL.

 

In terms of career wins (or career goals, or points etc) the thing to keep in mind is that the NHL season is now much longer than they used to be. Vezina started every game during his career -- but that was only 24 games.

 

He meant actual points (goals and assists), where Price is one assist behind Laroque.

Price is well ahead of all of them based on 2 points for a win and 1 point for an OT/SO Loss or Tie. 

 

Roy was traded. Dryden sat out 2 years and retired young, and Laroque was basically a backup for the vast majority of his career. 

 

Price beats all of them out of sheer longevity with the franchise.   He's number 1 by a lot in games played. 

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19 hours ago, Commandant said:

5 goals on 15 shots wins the game if your teammates score 6.

 

1 goal against on 35 shots loses it if your teammates don't score.

 

Weve all seen both happen.

 

Teams win or lose.  Not individuals.

When was the last time a goalie won a vezina with a .667 Save percentage or a 4.50 GAA

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3 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

He meant actual points (goals and assists), where Price is one assist behind Laroque.

Price is well ahead of all of them based on 2 points for a win and 1 point for an OT/SO Loss or Tie. 

 

Roy was traded. Dryden sat out 2 years and retired young, and Laroque was basically a backup for the vast majority of his career. 

 

Price beats all of them out of sheer longevity with the franchise.   He's number 1 by a lot in games played. 

Don’t really care about wins. For the Montreal can a Canadiens the only relevant stat is how many friggin cups.  Are turning into the friggin leafs going on how great palmateer was but was robbed of his opportunity by Ballard?

i love price but,  he will always be behind, Dryden and Roy - who will always be the greatest habs goalies.

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3 hours ago, Commandant said:

Roy was traded. Dryden sat out 2 years and retired young, and Laroque was basically a backup for the vast majority of his career. 

 

Price beats all of them out of sheer longevity with the franchise.   He's number 1 by a lot in games played. 

 

I should have noticed Laroque, that would have clued me in as to the points we are talking about! :)

 

But for longevity, he still has a long way to go to match Vézina ...

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20 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Don’t really care about wins. For the Montreal can a Canadiens the only relevant stat is how many friggin cups.  Are turning into the friggin leafs going on how great palmateer was but was robbed of his opportunity by Ballard?

i love price but,  he will always be behind, Dryden and Roy - who will always be the greatest habs goalies.

 

I brought up Price's career wins in response to HEART'S dubious proposition that 'wins are a goalie stat.' He meant to use that to 'prove' Price is a problem. And my point was, if we want for some bizarre reason to use W as a primary indicator of goalie excellence, then HEART loses the argument either way, because Price's career W are off the chart. If W are a key goalie stat then Price must by definition be the greatest goalie in Habs history. That conclusion shows how dumb the argument is.

 

To your wider point, I've argued for some time now that the Habs have become the post-1960s Leafs and that the fanbase acts accordingly - celebrating mediocrity and playoff misses, swooning over hypothetical excellence that is 'just around the corner' in 3-4 years, e.g. But none of that has anything to do with Price, who is the only Hab of this era truly worthy of the legacy of this once-transcendent franchise.

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5 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I brought up Price's career wins in response to HEART'S dubious proposition that 'wins are a goalie stat.' He meant to use that to 'prove' Price is a problem. And my point was, if we want for some bizarre reason to use W as a primary indicator of goalie excellence, then HEART loses the argument either way, because Price's career W are off the chart. If W are a key goalie stat then Price must by definition be the greatest goalie in Habs history. That conclusion shows how dumb the argument is.

 

To your wider point, I've argued for some time now that the Habs have become the post-1960s Leafs and that the fanbase acts accordingly - celebrating mediocrity and playoff misses, swooning over hypothetical excellence that is 'just around the corner' in 3-4 years, e.g. But none of that has anything to do with Price, who is the only Hab of this era truly worthy of the legacy of this once-transcendent franchise.

I agree that Price  is the only really superstar the habs has since Roy.  And you can count on one hand how many elite level players the habs had in the past 20 years - Price, koivu, Subban, Paccioretty and Theodore - and Theodore was only elite for 2 or 3 years.  

 

thats pathetic.  I’m cautiously excited about Suzuki, Poehling and  Canfield.  But the reality is that if and when they are elite players, Price, Weber and potentially Gallagher will be in e downward cycle.  I’d much rather do what the rangers and leafs did and sell of their high price talent (while they can and start from start).  I’d hate to see the habs hold into Price and Weber the way that the leafs and flames hung on to sundin and iginla too long.

 

the sad thing is that the leafs are now on the upswing with much more competent managemt - that still have their missteps, but we are becoming the Ballard leafs.

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30 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I agree that Price  is the only really superstar the habs has since Roy.  And you can count on one hand how many elite level players the habs had in the past 20 years - Price, koivu, Subban, Paccioretty and Theodore - and Theodore was only elite for 2 or 3 years. 

 

I would argue that if Pacioretty is elite, so are Domi and Kovalev. But I think all three are marginal cases.

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Kovalev was elite. Pacioretty was elite. Top 3 scorer in the league for a stretch. Domi could be, Drouin could be, Gallagher could be. I say Gallagher could be, because I personally feel that this is the year where he achieves his full potential. Brad Marchand did it in the same season that Gallagher is currently playing. Vanek was elite but we barely had him. Ribeiro has a good year with us but became a point per game player in Dallas. Shea Weber can be elite and Sheldon Souray was elite for a time being. Mike Cammalleri was an elite playoff performer. 

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7 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I brought up Price's career wins in response to HEART'S dubious proposition that 'wins are a goalie stat.' He meant to use that to 'prove' Price is a problem. And my point was, if we want for some bizarre reason to use W as a primary indicator of goalie excellence, then HEART loses the argument either way, because Price's career W are off the chart. If W are a key goalie stat then Price must by definition be the greatest goalie in Habs history. That conclusion shows how dumb the argument is.

 

To your wider point, I've argued for some time now that the Habs have become the post-1960s Leafs and that the fanbase acts accordingly - celebrating mediocrity and playoff misses, swooning over hypothetical excellence that is 'just around the corner' in 3-4 years, e.g. But none of that has anything to do with Price, who is the only Hab of this era truly worthy of the legacy of this once-transcendent franchise.

That is 100%  not what I was arguing... 

 

All I did was say Price needs to be better as he hasnt been the 10.5 million dollar superstar goalie to start this season... and rightfully so!!! And as much as the D has come under fire (they've played better later btw) Price should share some of that blame. (HES ALSO PLAYED BETTER LATELY) Especially since coming out of some disappointing seasons minus the 2nd half of last. I'm sure we can all agree on that. It's called accountablility.

This has morphed into me defending Patrick Roy and his playoff consistency as well!!!! Really? One of the greatest playoff performers at any position...

 

The wins was in reference to who had a better season Anderson or Price that year.

Price 48 starts

16W 26L .900% 1487 SA

 

Anderson 55 starts

23W 25L .898% 1768 SA

 

I referenced  7 more starts and 7 more wins

for Anderson who also faced 280 more shots in 7 extra games which is equivalent to 40 shots a game.

Then I'm told wins dont matter for goalies to make a point and save percentage is far more important when the guy was .002 less then Price. give me a break...

 

We just celebrated Prices all time historic win  statistics... but now it means nothing to try and make a point. ENOUGH with the cherry picking

 

FACT is Anderson had a better season then Price and Price was the worst starter in the league and NO Darling wasnt the starter he split time with Ward who did most of the winning for the Canes and Darling did most of the losing.

 

 

AND it's ok to criticize  Price, he shouldn't be immune to accountability when hes bad in goal (5 goals in 15 shots).. Just like he should be praised when he does well (33/34 shots)

 

ask a goalie what's there most important stat... 9 out of 10 will say wins....

 

 

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1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

 

I would argue that if Pacioretty is elite, so are Domi and Kovalev. But I think all three are marginal cases.

Has been a consistent 30 goal scorer yet?  He may become elite, but one season doesn’t make a career.  On the habs Kovolev had one great season and a coupe of good seasons.  Loved him when he was in, but cursed him more for other than that one big year and playoffs. He is a poster child for wasted potential and what could have been.

 

koivu turned BRIAN friggin and Chris Higgins into goal scorers and carried his team.  He is another one of those what could have been players - but through no fault of his own.  Blew his knee in his first IR second year and while he was a consistent player he was surrounded by garbage. Theodore won a hart and carries the team into the playoffs more than price has ever done.  Then he fell of a cliff and turned into red light racicot.

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1 minute ago, hab29RETIRED said:

koivu turned BRIAN friggin and Chris Higgins into goal scorers and carried his team.  He is another one of those what could have been players - but through no fault of his own.  Blew his knee in his first IR second year and while he was a consistent player he was surrounded by garbage. Theodore won a hart and carries the team into the playoffs more than price has ever done.  Then he fell of a cliff and turned into red light racicot.

 

No argument about Koivu, he was top notch when he was healthy.

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50 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Kovalev was elite. Pacioretty was elite. Top 3 scorer in the league for a stretch. Domi could be, Drouin could be, Gallagher could be. I say Gallagher could be, because I personally feel that this is the year where he achieves his full potential. Brad Marchand did it in the same season that Gallagher is currently playing. Vanek was elite but we barely had him. Ribeiro has a good year with us but became a point per game player in Dallas. Shea Weber can be elite and Sheldon Souray was elite for a time being. Mike Cammalleri was an elite playoff performer. 

Agree Domi and Gallagher May become elite - Drouin may even get there.  Weber WAS elite. He is on the downward slide and hopefully it won’t be the fall of the cliff like seabrook (shouldn’t be because he was a better player than seabrook ever was).

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Price is the only legitimate superstar the Habs have had since Roy. And Roy was the only legit one they had since Lafleur.

 

No other Hab in the post-Houle era belongs in that company.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Price is the only legitimate superstar the Habs have had since Roy. And Roy was the only legit one they had since Lafleur.

 

No other Hab in the post-Houle era belongs in that company.

 

 

Very true.

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3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Price is the only legitimate superstar the Habs have had since Roy. And Roy was the only legit one they had since Lafleur.

 

No other Hab in the post-Houle era belongs in that company.

 

 

In net or just as a player in general? I agree with you if you're talking about in net. But I would put Koivu up their as a superstar.

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On 11/1/2019 at 4:05 PM, hab29RETIRED said:

When was the last time a goalie won a vezina with a .667 Save percentage or a 4.50 GAA

 

A vezina is given to best goalie.  Not the one with the most wins.  So yeah... prove my point there.

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10 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

A vezina is given to best goalie.  Not the one with the most wins.  So yeah... prove my point there.

And how how.many “best”goalies have won the vezina with a sub par GAA, Save percentage or

tp 5 in all categories (unless they didn’t play enough games)? Nada.

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