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Life on the bubble, after that November


tomh009

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3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Judas Priest! It’s either Panglossian cheerleaders or C-3P0-style Doom and Gloom around here...

 

This team has a lot of good elements, right now. In particular it has good FW depth, two legit top pairing D-men and a goalie with heavy pedigree. If our Andy Capp of a GM would get off the couch and fill the abyssal hole at LD, I honestly think that would be enough to get us over the playoff bar. And that should be the goal this season: getting over the bar.

 

Remember, even if we’re retooling with youth, those youth will need playoff experience. It is consistent with - indeed, desirable to - a youth movement to ice a team that makes the dance.  I do not subscribe to this narrative of endlessly deferred gratification in the name of some continually-shifting three-year vanishing point when we will miraculously contend. MB’s job was to make this team better than last year’s. As usual, that turned out to be too ‘tough.’

 

I should have used the sarcasm emoji. I tend to think they should trade some prospects and draft picks which are redundant and hope to fill some holes. But you have to live with it if the player you traded ( Brooke Poeling) turns out to be a star. Nashville have traded a lot of star players and remain good. Mostly because poile is willing to part with high end players who are redundant in order to remain competitive.  He did not win all of those trades.

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5 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

I should have used the sarcasm emoji. I tend to think they should trade some prospects and draft picks which are redundant and hope to fill some holes. But you have to live with it if the player you traded ( Brooke Poeling) turns out to be a star. Nashville have traded a lot of star players and remain good. Mostly because poile is willing to part with high end players who are redundant in order to remain competitive.  He did not win all of those trades.

You can afford to lose some deals when you are doing a great job at drafting and developing - that has been another Achilles heel for us.  We finally have some good prospects, but they still need to pan out and developed.  Putting a useless bum like Lefebve in that role for around 5 years didn’t help matters.

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The habs brass, drafting and decision making is average at best. 

 

Which is why they have been a "bubble team" for 25 years. 

 

MB has made some good deals and some bad deals, same with contracts. 

 

They need to pick a direction, either commit to a rebuild, or go all in to make a run at the cup. Doing the same thing evey year and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chris said:

The habs brass, drafting and decision making is average at best. 

 

Which is why they have been a "bubble team" for 25 years. 

 

MB has made some good deals and some bad deals, same with contracts. 

 

They need to pick a direction, either commit to a rebuild, or go all in to make a run at the cup. Doing the same thing evey year and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. 

 

 

In 2016 they started the reset with the suban-weber trade and the signing of radulov. there was a setback in 2017 when they lost radu and markov. but is very clear that they have stayed path on the reset since.

 

continuing to deny that they have picked a path is the definition of insanity

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If signing  Radulov was part of a reset, they should have signed him for more than 1 year, letting Markov go was a conscious decision to move in a different direction. 

 

Each year MB signs a "project" player hoping to catch lightning in a bottle, only radulov was good, other than that its small soft forwards, 11th and 12th forwards and bottom pair / AHL d-men, rinse and repeat. 

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28 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

In 2016 they started the reset with the suban-weber trade and the signing of radulov. there was a setback in 2017 when they lost radu and markov. but is very clear that they have stayed path on the reset since.

 

continuing to deny that they have picked a path is the definition of insanity

If it was a reset, where is the left D???  If you truly are doing a reset you plug your holes ao you are in playoff contention.  You don’t continue to hope 18, 19 and 20 year olds will be top line players or dmen - you let them develop in the AHL and bring in nhl ready players to fill your holes.

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1 hour ago, Chris said:

If signing  Radulov was part of a reset, they should have signed him for more than 1 year, letting Markov go was a conscious decision to move in a different direction. 

 

Each year MB signs a "project" player hoping to catch lightning in a bottle, only radulov was good, other than that its small soft forwards, 11th and 12th forwards and bottom pair / AHL d-men, rinse and repeat. 

 

3 hours ago, Chris said:

 

They need to pick a direction, either commit to a rebuild, or go all in to make a run at the cup. Doing the same thing evey year and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. 

 

 

They havent done the same thing every year and those are not their only options...

 

Why does MB have to choose to

a) strip it down 

b) go all in

Being so narrow minded in taking a single approach I would suggest is insanity as well. Why not recognize the guys who could and should be part of a reset. Keep them and shed the rest and start building through the draft and with moves that make sense all the while not leveraging the future.

Keeping Gallagher, Danault, Price, Weber and Petry is exactly what makes bloody sense. Get rid of the rest and rebuild with smart moves. Or are we moving these guys as well for all kinds of futures and then waiting to draft in the lottery 5/7 years to get to that same level? Suggesting that is what is insane!!!!

 

There is nothing wrong with committing to build a team through the draft, signing sensible F.Agents (the players that want to come that is)  and not being willing to overpay for short term solutions because of fickle fans who kick you when your down but praise you when your beating the wash and Bostons of the league.

 

Looking back in hindsight, I cant see how anybody believes Domi isnt head and shoulders better then Galchenyuk. Who would of thought Subban would have fallen from the pedestal he built (for himself) so quickly? My presumption is that every GM and coach in the NHL would rather have Weber. If he could have a do over on the Drouin deal  maybe that's something that today would of made less sense. Although flipping Gally the next year for a converted C in Domi has seemed to work out much better. What about some praise for the swap of Tatar for Pacioretty? That happened to include Suzuki and a 2nd...

 

We wanted a LD signed and MB made a play for both Chiarot and Gardiner... one said no (thank God) and the other said yes. BEN is turning out to be quite the acquisition. He tried with Alzner (who was the highest ranked LD on the market) after Markov walked and it failed, but he tried... 

And hes made up for that bad UFA signing ten fold since then.

 

MB is such a better GM today then he was when first arriving in MTL. Hes always been conservative on the trade front. Nothing wrong with that.

 

AND why shouldn't he be reluctant to overpay for a LD fix? Who are we fixing the LD problem with? Werenski? Slavin? If that's the case I'm ALL IN....but if its Gostisbhere or another short term bottom pair guy (unless he comes cheap) I personally would rather let the 22yr old Leskinon play out the 2 weeks Mete is out and see what we have. I have no interest in giving up picks or prospects for Alec Martinez et all...

 

We have countless LD in the system although very young and raw with alot of draft picks in one of the deepest drafts of a  generation they are touting...

Weve already showed when this team is ON they can beat anybody. Sure it's easy to kick them when they are in  the midst of a slide and lost there utility player, there most dynamic winger and young Dman (on an already slim left side) to injury...

 

With that said they've played 4 solid games and as bad as that 8 game losing streak was, they blew what 4x 3rd period leads

 

I'm sure when they beat St.Louis Vegas and wash in the span of week nobody was talking about how dire this team is...

 

 

With that said, the biggest mistake of MB tenure is letting Radulov walk and not paying him. And to a lesser extent Markov (lesser because of age)..however that mistake in retrospect , indirectly brought us Kotkaniemi Tatar, Struble and Suzuki!!!! Who wants markov and Radulov over those guys?

 

I said from the start if it wasnt Panarin or Karlsson I wanted nobody on the UFA market. I've changed my mind since cause I actually like Chiarot. Hes been great I think at least.

 

But the guys wanting a full strip down are the same ones who dont have the patience to even get through 30 games. 

 

ALL THIS TALK ABOUT I WANT A CUP or I demand more then mediocrity is all a load of crap... we are young and we are in playoff contention. Let's see in another 20 games where we stand.

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Man, it's forest and trees. You can look at this tree or that and go, "hey, this forest is doing great." When you zoom out and look at the forest as a whole, it's not doing that well at all.

 

Eight years and still no obvious, clear-cut top-6 C. It looked like Domi was the answer - and yes, I like him, and yes, he is much better than Galy - but between his faceoff % and his overall sketchy play this year, the thought that he is the solution at C no longer self-evident. KoKo may yet become that guy, but he's having a troubling sophomore season and it is not a given that he will amount to more than a 50-point-ish 2nd line C.

 

Two and a half years of a crippling hole on LD. And counting.

 

A team that missed the playoffs in 2018, "improved" to a bubble team but still missed the playoffs last year, and is no better than that this year.

 

For all of that - like I keep saying - this team has strengths in many areas, and the addition of a Markov replacement would likely vault it upwards past "bubble" status. This is precisely why I find it so frustrating that MB hasn't cracked that nut. Not only are we burning the playing lives of Weber, Petry, and even Price - the first and last of these being higher-impact players than anyone in our prospect pool projects to be -  but in depriving our young players of playoff experience, we are further delaying the overall development of the franchise into a team that might actually threaten for the Cup.

 

The complete disinterest by some posters on this site in actually having a quality, contending team continues to baffle me; it's exactly like listening to Toronto Maple Leafs fans from the 1970s, 80s, and parts of the '90s. The main difference is that "the new NHL" is now being used as an explanation for why the Habs can't actually excel. "UFAs don't come here." "The cap is challenging." Blah blah blah. You know what attracts UFAs? Success. If UFAs don't come here, it's because they rightly don't take the Habs seriously as an organization that is likely to contend any time in the foreseeable future. I've read that Hall told the Devils he would only sign with them if he could see a path to contention. If that's his goal, why would he sign here? Because MB will say "sure, we always miss the playoffs, but we've got some solid, non-susperstar-level prospects in the system?" Please.

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Your notion of success attracts UFAs is 100% correct. I can see players overlooking the cold weather and high taxes to join a perennial contender any day of the week.

 

But the LD fiasco I dont entirely agree with.

 

Who is the top LD that's available for trade? Everyone continues to say MB gas done f-all to address #1LD but that isnt true either.

-He made a play for Gardiner and he said No

-He signed Chiarot who's been great

-He promoted a 20 year old in Mete who COMM has pointed out is the least protected (zone starts) on the team, playing a key role on the top pair.

He signed the "best available" UFA (Alzner ) to add to the left but then tried to strong arm Markov (was a mistake) and it didnt work and then couple that with the alzner signing failure and leveraging Sergachev to try and shore up the C all combined to take a big step back in that position.

 

Nobody wants to add more then me... but I just think if we are adding, it has to be a sure fire acquisition.  A top LD who's still got years ahead of him that would merit the loss of real assets. Not a washed up former star or another bottom pair guy.

I'm truly ok with him waiting it out until the next "Petry" falls in our lap at the deadline not because I accept mediocrity but because I'm invested in this team long term. To consider Gosti (who is struggling to even get into the Philly line up) or Alec Martinez for multi pieces? No thanks.

 

I give MB props for saying weve taken a conscious approach  to building through the draft and not leveraging the future. But making savvy trades when it makes sense for now and the future and reasonable UFA signings like Chiarot that wont hurt us in future years AND sticking to it even through the ups and downs of icing a younger more inexperienced team.

 

As for burning hockey lives

-when Price's star dims, I'm sure the next star like Primeau will begin to shine.

-When Weber slows down in 10 years from now ;) Norlinder will be lights out amazing...

-Petry will have slowed down and we will have signed his replacement in the market.

 

It's the circle of hockey life....

 

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17 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

The complete disinterest by some posters on this site in actually having a quality, contending team continues to baffle me;

 

I think you may have misread at least some of us. As for me, I would love to have a contending team. More immediately, I would love to have a new top defenceman pull on the CH sweater.

 

And yet. If I imagine myself in the role of an NHL GM, it's not an easy task to excel. It's much easier to do a Chiarelli and run a team into the ground. But building a winning team is much more challenging, as the other GMs are not exactly going to be bending backwards to help you. UFA signings can be a boost if you can attract them -- but you need to have something to make your team attractive (recent winning record, low tax rate, low media/fan pressure, nice weather etc).

 

So I continue to cheer for this team through their struggles. I continue to hope that Bergevin will be able to pull off a deal that significantly improves the team (and not a rental). And in the end, it's just a hockey game, life is too short for me to stress about whether they win the cup or not. :)

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2 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

If it was a reset, where is the left D???  If you truly are doing a reset you plug your holes ao you are in playoff contention.  You don’t continue to hope 18, 19 and 20 year olds will be top line players or dmen - you let them develop in the AHL and bring in nhl ready players to fill your holes.

in Laval, earning $4625000 cap hit. With Petry and Weber that would have been a decent top-3. Chiarot seems to be the LD to fill that hole until an elite LD is developed or traded for

 

 

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20 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

in Laval, earning $4625000 cap hit. With Petry and Weber that would have been a decent top-3. Chiarot seems to be the LD to fill that hole until an elite LD is developed or traded for

 

 

Alzner was signed before Markov walked.

 

Markov Weber

Alzner Petry

Mete Benn

 

Was the plan....

Markov walked

Alzner shit the bed

Mete became #1LD 2 years to soon....

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Man, it's forest and trees. You can look at this tree or that and go, "hey, this forest is doing great." When you zoom out and look at the forest as a whole, it's not doing that well at all.

 

Eight years and still no obvious, clear-cut top-6 C. It looked like Domi was the answer - and yes, I like him, and yes, he is much better than Galy - but between his faceoff % and his overall sketchy play this year, the thought that he is the solution at C no longer self-evident. KoKo may yet become that guy, but he's having a troubling sophomore season and it is not a given that he will amount to more than a 50-point-ish 2nd line C.

 

Two and a half years of a crippling hole on LD. And counting.

 

A team that missed the playoffs in 2018, "improved" to a bubble team but still missed the playoffs last year, and is no better than that this year.

 

For all of that - like I keep saying - this team has strengths in many areas, and the addition of a Markov replacement would likely vault it upwards past "bubble" status. This is precisely why I find it so frustrating that MB hasn't cracked that nut. Not only are we burning the playing lives of Weber, Petry, and even Price - the first and last of these being higher-impact players than anyone in our prospect pool projects to be -  but in depriving our young players of playoff experience, we are further delaying the overall development of the franchise into a team that might actually threaten for the Cup.

 

The complete disinterest by some posters on this site in actually having a quality, contending team continues to baffle me; it's exactly like listening to Toronto Maple Leafs fans from the 1970s, 80s, and parts of the '90s. The main difference is that "the new NHL" is now being used as an explanation for why the Habs can't actually excel. "UFAs don't come here." "The cap is challenging." Blah blah blah. You know what attracts UFAs? Success. If UFAs don't come here, it's because they rightly don't take the Habs seriously as an organization that is likely to contend any time in the foreseeable future. I've read that Hall told the Devils he would only sign with them if he could see a path to contention. If that's his goal, why would he sign here? Because MB will say "sure, we always miss the playoffs, but we've got some solid, non-susperstar-level prospects in the system?" Please.

I’ve been saying for years now that most Habs fans now have the same mentality as leafs fans.  Team sucks, but I still remember my leaf friends saying “man is it exciting watching Wendal Clark, danial marios and Damphousse - one day these guys are going to lead us to the finals”. Or “just wait we just have to wait for Leeman to develop, he is going to be the best defensemen since Bobby Orr.”

 

I don’t remember ANY Montreal GM being given as much rope as MB has been given and even when he hangs himself, there’s the nonsensical arguments how much of a better GM he is now th an when he was hired. Ignoring that the team has either regressed or remained a stagnant bubble team who need their goalie to have a Hart trophy type of year to be successful.

 

as far as players not wanting to come to Montreal - it’s because they suck and have lousy management and a team that’s headed nowhere. California. Has high taxes, ny has high taxes and cold winters, but people still sign there.  Hell minnesota has worse winters, but they can even attract UFA’s. The one issue Montreal does have is the self inflicted language concerns, but if if the team is winning that wouldn’t matter either.

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4 hours ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

Your notion of success attracts UFAs is 100% correct. I can see players overlooking the cold weather and high taxes to join a perennial contender any day of the week.

 

But the LD fiasco I dont entirely agree with.

 

Who is the top LD that's available for trade? Everyone continues to say MB gas done f-all to address #1LD but that isnt true either.

-He made a play for Gardiner and he said No

-He signed Chiarot who's been great

-He promoted a 20 year old in Mete who COMM has pointed out is the least protected (zone starts) on the team, playing a key role on the top pair.

He signed the "best available" UFA (Alzner ) to add to the left but then tried to strong arm Markov (was a mistake) and it didnt work and then couple that with the alzner signing failure and leveraging Sergachev to try and shore up the C all combined to take a big step back in that position.

 

Nobody wants to add more then me... but I just think if we are adding, it has to be a sure fire acquisition.  A top LD who's still got years ahead of him that would merit the loss of real assets. Not a washed up former star or another bottom pair guy.

I'm truly ok with him waiting it out until the next "Petry" falls in our lap at the deadline not because I accept mediocrity but because I'm invested in this team long term. To consider Gosti (who is struggling to even get into the Philly line up) or Alec Martinez for multi pieces? No thanks.

 

I give MB props for saying weve taken a conscious approach  to building through the draft and not leveraging the future. But making savvy trades when it makes sense for now and the future and reasonable UFA signings like Chiarot that wont hurt us in future years AND sticking to it even through the ups and downs of icing a younger more inexperienced team.

 

As for burning hockey lives

-when Price's star dims, I'm sure the next star like Primeau will begin to shine.

-When Weber slows down in 10 years from now ;) Norlinder will be lights out amazing...

-Petry will have slowed down and we will have signed his replacement in the market.

 

It's the circle of hockey life....

 

Signing Alzner was a mistake before it even happened, so I don’t see that as a plus.  He was a healthy scratch in Washington.  When he came here he talked about the culture issues in Washington for the reason they didn’t have playoff success.  I guess he was right - they just needed to get rid of him!!!!

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33 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

as far as players not wanting to come to Montreal - it’s because they suck and have lousy management and a team that’s headed nowhere.

Always such negative posts from this one; but , is consistent I suppose.:youpi:

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39 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Signing Alzner was a mistake before it even happened, so I don’t see that as a plus.  He was a healthy scratch in Washington.  When he came here he talked about the culture issues in Washington for the reason they didn’t have playoff success.  I guess he was right - they just needed to get rid of him!!!!

Alzner was mistake as we all can agree. Not sure how you get what I said about the LD moves as a list of pluses though... 

 

As for culture issues in Washington you are mentioning... One of the biggest issues Barry Trotz had when arriving in  2014/2015 was changing the culture and getting stars like Ovi to buy in to a team mentality first and foremost before individual achievements. That was well documented in the build up to there Stanley Cup win...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

Ever feel like weve had this conversation before?

 

Are you referring to the discussion about the Habs needing a left hand  shooting defenceman?    Yup.    I think almost everyone would agree that there is a need for improvement there but the question is how much do you give up to address that need and by doing that will it only create another weakness somewhere else? 

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36 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Are you referring to the discussion about the Habs needing a left hand  shooting defenceman?    Yup.    I think almost everyone would agree that there is a need for improvement there but the question is how much do you give up to address that need and by doing that will it only create another weakness somewhere else? 

 

That was part of it.

 

The overall looks at bergevins tenure though, weve had those discussions a few times.

 

As for the idea that if some posters arent ranting and raving that a LD must be acquired right now means that those fans support mediocrity.  I think thats the same strawman arguments weve had too

 

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6 hours ago, Commandant said:

As for the idea that if some posters arent ranting and raving that a LD must be acquired right now means that those fans support mediocrity.  I think thats the same strawman arguments weve had too

yup, we've been there and we've done that

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8 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

 

As for the idea that if some posters arent ranting and raving that a LD must be acquired right now means that those fans support mediocrity.  I think thats the same strawman arguments weve had too

 

 

Disappointing to hear my view caricatured this way. That is not my position and never was.

 

As for supporting mediocrity, some of the posts on here prove my point. 'The team may not contend within Price and Weber's window and that's A-OK.' 'I just want to cheer for the Habs no matter what.' Such claims exemplify an uncritical embrace of eternal mediocrity. We all cheer for the Habs, but some of us don't see that as interchangeable with swallowing the organization's Kool-Aid all the time. You only have to consider how this 'everything is awesome' mindset would have worked during the Houle era to see its folly. Worse, by cheerleading endlessly we indirectly enable the franchise's mediocrity, just as Leafs fans did all those years.

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13 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Disappointing to hear my view caricatured this way. That is not my position and never was.

 

As for supporting mediocrity, some of the posts on here prove my point. 'The team may not contend within Price and Weber's window and that's A-OK.' 'I just want to cheer for the Habs no matter what.' Such claims exemplify an uncritical embrace of eternal mediocrity. We all cheer for the Habs, but some of us don't see that as interchangeable with swallowing the organization's Kool-Aid all the time. You only have to consider how this 'everything is awesome' mindset would have worked during the Houle era to see its folly. Worse, by cheerleading endlessly we indirectly enable the franchise's mediocrity, just as Leafs fans did all those years.

Cucumber, I like you posts in general and a I enjoy your analysis for the most part: honestly.

 

But when you say that some of us accept mediocrity and swallow the org's kool aid; I feel it is addressed to me, at least indirectly. Let me just say that as a person, I limit what "gets to me" and bothers me to things that matter: family, employment and heath. Being a CH fan, for me, is a pass time and as much as I would love them to win a cup this year: I know that will not happen.

So I temper my expectations, look at where the team is and enjoy the winning times but also endure the mediocre periods. That's it, that's all. 

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40 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Disappointing to hear my view caricatured this way. That is not my position and never was.

Not sure how you see being cynical and pessimistic 100% of the time as the only acceptable way to be?

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40 minutes ago, DON said:

Not sure how you see being cynical and pessimistic 100% of the time as the only acceptable way to be?

Has the organization actually done anything to promote a different position??  What have they done that would cause hope this team is ever going to be anything other than a mediocre bubble team??

 

was it retaining Lefebve for around 5 years??  Signings like washed out Briere’s or Streit’s to plug major holes???  Signing Alzner to be in the top 4 when he couldnt even crack the top 6 in Washington??

hoping that 19 and 20 year olds who aren’t clear generational prospects will fill the hole on LD?  What exactly gives you hope that this team under this management group will be anything other than a bubble team whose strategy is TRY to make the playoffs and than anything can happen????  It is that we are probably the only team that consistently has lacked a true number one centre since Koivu was allowed to walk - and even worse that Koivu is probably the best centre we’ve had in almost 25 years once Turgeon was dumped and Damphousse left?

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