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Is our plan flawed?


REV-G

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I think I'm speaking for many of you. I'm frustrated and getting fed up.

 

I have followed the Habs for many many years. I remember Gump Worsley with no mask and the night Rogatien Vachon and Ken Dryden both made their first starts. So I have been surprised that lately my passion is waning, I'm losing interest, I'm not watching games that I would have other years. So here is some venting, some thoughts and questions about our team. 

 

Why are we sitting on millions of unspent dollars every year for the past few when there are obvious needs that should be filled?  What are we waiting for? We're waiting for younger guys to develop but our older core, Carey Price and Shea Weber, are getting older. It appears to me that we need to add one or two defenceman and a good scoring forward at least but Bergevin hasn't done anything so far. Do we have to wait until we fall so far out of contention that there's no hope before he does something? 

 

I have to admit I have been on and off the bandwagon with Marc Bergevin over the past 3 years. Two years ago I thought he had to go but last year I was surprised, along with many others I'm sure, that the moves we made getting KK, Domi, Tatar and Suzuki turned out so well. This year it seems we're scoring goals and our PP has improved but our defence at times seems to go from being good to awful. Overall Carey Price has not played so great and I have always been a strong supporter of his.  So we have to ask, why hasn't MB brought in help? He can't keep saying that it's too hard to find good defenceman who could help us. We have money and picks and some players that we could move, Byron [when he's healthy], Thompson, Reilly and some younger guys in the AHL that combined with some creativity could surely improve our current defence. Even one defenceman?? That has to be doable! Clearly Bergevin's plan is to keep adding young assets. I think we have 12 picks this year? And I understand that this draft is supposed to be very deep and the best in many years. But it's time to move some parts to get better now. For example, do we have enough pieces, I know we'd have to sell the farm, to get Alexis Lafreniere? Would it be worth trading anyone on our roster, plus multiple picks, plus, plus......to try to get a potential french superstar?? What would Sam Pollock do? He'd try something I'm sure. 

 

If we look at our roster this year and add Romanov next year or another young guy, will that make that much of a difference?? Are we going to be much of a different team next year or will it be the same again. Wouldn't the addition of two good forwards and two good defenceman make a pretty good difference. Shouldn't that have been done already. Aho was at least a plan, but probably flawed. But how would we look with him in our lineup? Why didn't we do something else? 

 

I'm sure Geoff Molson will give MB at least this year or maybe until we fall out of a playoff spot before he'll contemplate making a change but for me, I think the clock has to be ticking on MB's position. It's time for one of two people to make changes. Either Marc Bergevin or Geoff Molson. We can't keep stumbling along in the middle of the pack or a bit lower year after year. MB is in his 7th year. It's time for some major changes. 

 

What do you think? 

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Assuming they are out of the playoffs in a month, 

 

Tatar, Petry, Byron should be looked at for trades, Petry and Tatar are worth 1st rounders, 

 

I would ask Weber and Price what they want to do since they control there own contracts

 

To a lesser extent, teams would want Thompson Maybe Weal. 

 

I dont see anyone wanting Drouin

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Chris said:

Assuming they are out of the playoffs in a month, 

 

Tatar, Petry, Byron should be looked at for trades, Petry and Tatar are worth 1st rounders, 

 

I would ask Weber and Price what they want to do since they control there own contracts

 

To a lesser extent, teams would want Thompson Maybe Weal. 

 

I dont see anyone wanting Drouin

 

 

 

 

Price controls his future, but at this point, i'm sure if he was asked to go to a potential contender like Calgary he would waive.  Petry partially controls his fate, Weber has no control and is having a career year. I think with the draft in Montreal - which is supposed to be the strongest since 2003.  you move them for picks and prospects and ensure the picks aren't lottery protected.

 

Byron is not going to get you a first - with his health, we'd be lucky to get a 2nd.  Tatar given his play during his last in-season move would probably also be a 2nd+ prospects.

 

I'd actually try and hang onto Tatar - you need good wingers for young centres (Suzuki/KK), but move Price/Weber.  As much as i love Gallagahr, Id see if some team in need of wingers (i.e. Edmonton) would be willing to overpay in prospects and picks and we take back a bad contract that expires in no more than 2 years).

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Didn't say Byron would. 

 

Habs need some size and grit. 

 

Gallagher is a tough call, he brings it every night which not a whole lot of habs do, he would get a good return as well 

 

They have options

 

I thought i read Weber has a NMC in his contract that he would have to waive 

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Regarding the cap space debate,  MB has tried to use it (ie Jake Gardiner said no which was maybe a good thing).  I would rather he wait for the right opportunity than overpay but he has made attempts.  I don't have an issue trading veterans for draft picks if the right trade comes up but we do need some veteran leadership to help the kids develop.  Tatar has been a valuable players and seems to like it here, I would hang on to him unless you get at least a 1st round pick.  I expect MB will try to make a splash at the draft with it being in Montreal. 

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1 hour ago, REV-G said:

Why are we sitting on millions of unspent dollars every year for the past few when there are obvious needs that should be filled? Aho signing didnt stick and Gardiner offer not being accepted.

Any specific players get traded that Habs could of had? Hall?

Lindholm, Fowler or the like would seem a perfect add, but havent heard of any good "youngish" LH d-men being shopped.

 

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41 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Price controls his future, but at this point, i'm sure if he was asked to go to a potential contender like Calgary he would waive.  Petry partially controls his fate, Weber has no control and is having a career year. I think with the draft in Montreal - which is supposed to be the strongest since 2003.  you move them for picks and prospects and ensure the picks aren't lottery protected.

 

What you're asking for likely isn't possible.  Which non-playoff team is trading an unprotected pick?  Considering what happened to Ottawa last year and is happening to San Jose this year, it's fair to venture that most pick trades will have lottery protection in them moving forward unless it's a team like Boston who is a sure bet to make the playoffs (in which case lottery protection wouldn't matter).  Bubble teams aren't taking that risk either, especially with the draft being as strong as it's believed to be.

 

35 minutes ago, Chris said:

I thought i read Weber has a NMC in his contract that he would have to waive 

 

As Weber's contract was originally via an offer sheet, there isn't any form of trade protection by rule.

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1 hour ago, REV-G said:

What do you think? I, 

I feel the same way, I almost got rid of RDS/TVA last December because I am not watching games with the same fervour as before.

 

I think Petry has to be moved at the trade deadline this year regardless of the Habs playoff chances/standings. I do not want the CH to waist an expansion protection slot o. 34 year old Petry. He peaked last season.

I like Tatar and would let his contract Play out like Gionta’s and Koivu’s did. Unless someone offers a first round pick, even if a package is needed

 

I want the CH to have a repeat of the 2007 draft in 2020,. That would complete the rebuild for me. This year, I do not care much about the playoffs if instead we hit a few homer us at the draft like in 2007. But for certain, I want the new core of Suzuki, KotkaniemI, Fleury, Chiarot, Primeau, etc. To develop and become dominant NHLers.

 

I am frustrated with our middle of the pack results and bubble team ups and downs, but I do not want the CH to do what the Senators or the Wings are doing. I live in Ottawa and would stop watching hockey if the CH was that bad.

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Those who have done me the kindness of reading my occasional long posts know my answer. Yes, the plan is flawed. Our current best players will be aging out as the new ones emerge or hit their primes. And none of the new guys project to be players of the level of Price or Weber. In other words, I don't really see a plausible "window." Rather, I suspect the result will be more pretty-good teams that don't accomplish anything, for the indefinite future.

 

Watching Aho last night, I couldn't help but think that Bergevin chickened out. He should have gone all-in with an offer that the Canes could or would not match. Yes, it's an overpay. But you get a truly elite f**king player who can anchor your forward unit for 10-12 years. Take the risk. But no. The Habs under Bergevin are always the bridesmaid, always left telling the fanbase "hey, we tried, but it's too 'tough.'" That, not "to failing hands we throw the torch," should be the motto on the Habs' dressing room wall for the 2020s. It's much more honest.

 

REV-G, like you and Habs29, I find myself less passionate about the Habs than I once was. And I think the reason is that I just don't see a reason to believe the future will be much different from the mostly-mediocre 25 years we just went through.

 

 

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2 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

What you're asking for likely isn't possible.  Which non-playoff team is trading an unprotected pick?  Considering what happened to Ottawa last year and is happening to San Jose this year, it's fair to venture that most pick trades will have lottery protection in them moving forward unless it's a team like Boston who is a sure bet to make the playoffs (in which case lottery protection wouldn't matter).  Bubble teams aren't taking that risk either, especially with the draft being as strong as it's believed to be.

 

 

As Weber's contract was originally via an offer sheet, there isn't any form of trade protection by rule.

You could move them to teams that aren’t in a guaranteed playoff position (ie Edmonton, Calgary) if they get in, it’s not a lottery pick, but if they don’t, you don’t make a trade unless there is no lottery protection.  You could also strategically make a move like Pollack did for the lafleur pick - where you try and pick up up a first and make another trade to make a team that is competing with a playoff team stronger.   Trade Weber, kulak, Gallagher and 3rd round pick to Edmonton for #1 pick, Russell, Puljujarvi, Gagner, either one of nurse/klefbom/Larsson/ and Bouchard.

 

than you trade price, weak and Byron to calgary for #1, rittich, Valimaki, Bennet, Frolík and harmonic.

 

make both deals with the #1 pick being unprotected.  I can’t see both making the playoffs, so hopefully you get one lottery pick.  Rittich has played well, but no one in town has any confidence in him for the playoffs.

 

may need to shift the above to make the salary cap work.

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41 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Those who have done me the kindness of reading my occasional long posts know my answer. Yes, the plan is flawed. Our current best players will be aging out as the new ones emerge or hit their primes. And none of the new guys project to be players of the level of Price or Weber. In other words, I don't really see a plausible "window." Rather, I suspect the result will be more pretty-good teams that don't accomplish anything, for the indefinite future.

 

Watching Aho last night, I couldn't help but think that Bergevin chickened out. He should have gone all-in with an offer that the Canes could or would not match. Yes, it's an overpay. But you get a truly elite f**king player who can anchor your forward unit for 10-12 years. Take the risk. But no. The Habs under Bergevin are always the bridesmaid, always left telling the fanbase "hey, we tried, but it's too 'tough.'" That, not "to failing hands we throw the torch," should be the motto on the Habs' dressing room wall for the 2020s. It's much more honest.

 

REV-G, like you and Habs29, I find myself less passionate about the Habs than I once was. And I think the reason is that I just don't see a reason to believe the future will be much different from the mostly-mediocre 25 years we just went through.

 

 

If MB had gone all in on Aho, I’d have been willing to give him a chance. But his offer sheet was a joke.

 

back in the late 70’s and 80’s with no tsn or internet, I used to have to resort to listening to the French CBC radio to follow EVERY habs game that wasn’t televised (which was 95% of the non -playoff games), since we usually got the leafs over the habs in Calgary on the CBC.  I don’t speak French, just “il lans”, bell-arraire”, “el le but” and the players name. But I still listened to every broadcast.  Hell, during the series where the oilers beat us I thought “handy moog” which I kept hearing over and also meant great save - didn’t no moog was the goalie who replaced mio.

 

i used to have rds before the Sportsnet deal and canceled my nhl package a couple of years ago.

 

thats a big shift from listening to the French CBC radio and taking two buses twice a week to the downtown library so I could read the gazette to get Habs news coverage in junior high and high school.

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3 hours ago, Chris said:

Assuming they are out of the playoffs in a month, 

 

Tatar, Petry, Byron should be looked at for trades, Petry and Tatar are worth 1st rounders, 

 

I would ask Weber and Price what they want to do since they control there own contracts

 

To a lesser extent, teams would want Thompson Maybe Weal. 

 

I dont see anyone wanting Drouin

 

 

 

 

According to EK Colorado is interested in Drouin . So I guess he's not going there well because after all its EK lol.

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My problem with Bergevin is if he's going with youth over NHL star players, then call it a 5 year rebuild plan so fans know theirs no playoff expectations. If we make the playoffs that's great and good for the kids to build on, but don't expect a cup, in the rebuild.

 

Don't try and sell this as a reset, then when you're at the point where you have the cap space and top end prospects pool you do nothing to improve the team.

 

Fans don't know what to expect from this organization. Are we going to make trades and sign free agent's to improve the team and push for a cup run. Or we going with youth and building from within so don't expect a cup run.

 

The last 2 years he's done a great job rebuilding our prospect pool and putting us in a better spot for the future, then this team was 4 years ago.

 

But i feel if its a retool or reset like Bergevin said,  we should be looking at adding to the NHL team to make it better, and trying to win a cup now. Because we now have the cap space and prospects to make trades and make this team stronger.  Something we didn't have 3/4 years ago.

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

You could move them to teams that aren’t in a guaranteed playoff position (ie Edmonton, Calgary) if they get in, it’s not a lottery pick, but if they don’t, you don’t make a trade unless there is no lottery protection.  You could also strategically make a move like Pollack did for the lafleur pick - where you try and pick up up a first and make another trade to make a team that is competing with a playoff team stronger.   Trade Weber, kulak, Gallagher and 3rd round pick to Edmonton for #1 pick, Russell, Puljujarvi, Gagner, either one of nurse/klefbom/Larsson/ and Bouchard.

 

than you trade price, weak and Byron to calgary for #1, rittich, Valimaki, Bennet, Frolík and harmonic.

 

make both deals with the #1 pick being unprotected.  I can’t see both making the playoffs, so hopefully you get one lottery pick.  Rittich has played well, but no one in town has any confidence in him for the playoffs.

 

may need to shift the above to make the salary cap work.

 

Holland has already said he won't move a first-round pick unless they were guaranteed to make the playoffs in part due to the risk of having that pick potentially move into the top-three.  It was the primary reason that they withdrew from the Taylor Hall talks.  So they're not an option.

 

And we've talked about Calgary many times before.  While Price would be a fit for them, their salary cap structure does not allow them to bring him in.  Building a deal around primarily expiring contracts might work for this season (though your proposal would put them over the cap) but they're not going to take on some big money, long-term deals when they have to rebuild a big chunk of their defence next summer; a move like that would make doing so all but impossible.  So no, they're not going to move an unprotected first rounder to willingly put themselves in serious cap trouble.  They also played hardball with Matthew Tkachuk last summer to keep his AAV low; they have no desire to then turn around and bring in a $10.5 million goalie.  They're not an option either.  Nor are any other bubble/non-playoff teams.  I would be shocked at this point if a non-playoff team traded an unprotected pick over the next 7.5 weeks before the trade deadline.  It's just not realistic.

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3 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

Holland has already said he won't move a first-round pick unless they were guaranteed to make the playoffs in part due to the risk of having that pick potentially move into the top-three.  It was the primary reason that they withdrew from the Taylor Hall talks.  So they're not an option.

 

And we've talked about Calgary many times before.  While Price would be a fit for them, their salary cap structure does not allow them to bring him in.  Building a deal around primarily expiring contracts might work for this season (though your proposal would put them over the cap) but they're not going to take on some big money, long-term deals when they have to rebuild a big chunk of their defence next summer; a move like that would make doing so all but impossible.  So no, they're not going to move an unprotected first rounder to willingly put themselves in serious cap trouble.  They also played hardball with Matthew Tkachuk last summer to keep his AAV low; they have no desire to then turn around and bring in a $10.5 million goalie.  They're not an option either.  Nor are any other bubble/non-playoff teams.  I would be shocked at this point if a non-playoff team traded an unprotected pick over the next 7.5 weeks before the trade deadline.  It's just not realistic.

As far as Holland goes, there is a big difference between moving a #1 for Hall’s expiring contract and moving a number #1 to solidify their D and a top winger with term.

 

as far as Calgary goes, there are other contracts we could take on.  Goaltending has been Calgary’s Achilles heel since kipper retired and they have been trying to move Frolík and Harmornic all year. There’s even been rumours of moving Monohon or Gaudreau. I think there would be a lot of interest in Price.

 

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

As far as Holland goes, there is a big difference between moving a #1 for Hall’s expiring contract and moving a number #1 to solidify their D and a top winger with term.

 

as far as Calgary goes, there are other contracts we could take on.  Goaltending has been Calgary’s Achilles heel since kipper retired and they have been trying to move Frolík and Harmornic all year. There’s even been rumours of moving Monohon or Gaudreau. I think there would be a lot of interest in Price.

 

Ken Holland back at the end of November (before the Hall trade):

 

Quote

 

“Would I trade a first-round draft pick? I certainly wouldn’t trade a first-round pick if there was any chance we could miss the playoffs. If it’s somewhere between 20 and 30 (in round 1), that’s different."

 

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/unless-a-deal-falls-in-oilers-general-manager-hollands-lap-no-trade-for-puljujarvi-now

 

 

That doesn't sound like someone who's going to turn around and trade an unprotected pick.  They're literally in the bubble situation where he says he won't trade the pick.  They also couldn't afford Price with their cap structure - they don't have enough medium-tier contracts to send back to make the finances work while still having the deal make sense for them. 

 

Frolik and Hamonic are expiring contracts so while they'd help offset the cap now, what about the next six years?  The salary offsets have to be long-term.  (Think Milan Lucic.)  In that span, they'll have to re-sign Tkachuk, Monahan, and Gaudreau (plus replace Giordano) and that will be a lot harder to do with a $10.5 million goalie on the books which will also greatly disrupt the salary structure they've worked so hard to set up; there's a reason that Gaudreau didn't sign for more than Giordano and why they forced Tkachuk into a bridge deal at a similar price tag.

 

Calgary needs a goalie.  I agree with that.  I don't think they need the highest-paid goalie in NHL history though, especially when that goalie has worse numbers than Rittich.  There will be other more affordable options out there this summer.

 

I'm not at the point where I think Price is no longer good but with how he has played this season, there is not a single team that is going to view him as the type of asset that's worth giving up multiple core pieces (or potential core pieces) for.  With that contract and so many teams being cap-strapped, he's a negative value asset to a lot of teams at the moment until he turns things around for a sustained period of time.  Generally speaking, given that most of the salary movement occurs after the draft when teams have more payroll flexibility, the optimal time to trade Price would be the few days between the draft and the start of free agency.  That makes it even less likely that an unprotected first rounder would be involved in a trade for him.

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On 1/1/2020 at 10:19 AM, REV-G said:

Clearly Bergevin's plan is to keep adding young assets. I think we have 12 picks this year? And I understand that this draft is supposed to be very deep and the best in many years. But it's time to move some parts to get better now. For example, do we have enough pieces, I know we'd have to sell the farm, to get Alexis Lafreniere? Would it be worth trading anyone on our roster, plus multiple picks, plus, plus......to try to get a potential french superstar?? What would Sam Pollock do? He'd try something I'm sure. 

It isn't. 

 

The organization from the top down, owner to waterboy, committed to a multi-season retool centered around drafting and trading for a new young core. It's the direction that Geoff Molson wanted and still wants. It's why the only things the Habs gave up at last year's deadline to shore up NHL depth were career AHLers and dropping 20 spots out of the 4th round into the 5th round in the draft (Chaput for Weal, Thompson and a 5th for a 4th, Folin and Weise for Schlemko and Froese.) It's why Shaw was traded in the summer for picks without a guaranteed replacement in the lineup. Even the Aho offer sheet was calculated in what they were willing to give up for it to be worthwhile long and short term. It's frustrating because we all want to watch the team win games, and it's even more frustrating because the Atlantic is such a shit show this year, but the organization is sticking to their plan for long-term benefit.

 

The plan frustrating to every fan, but is only flawed to impatient fans.

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1 hour ago, Trizzak said:

It isn't. 

 

The organization from the top down, owner to waterboy, committed to a multi-season retool centered around drafting and trading for a new young core. It's the direction that Geoff Molson wanted and still wants. It's why the only things the Habs gave up at last year's deadline to shore up NHL depth were career AHLers and dropping 20 spots out of the 4th round into the 5th round in the draft (Chaput for Weal, Thompson and a 5th for a 4th, Folin and Weise for Schlemko and Froese.) It's why Shaw was traded in the summer for picks without a guaranteed replacement in the lineup. Even the Aho offer sheet was calculated in what they were willing to give up for it to be worthwhile long and short term. It's frustrating because we all want to watch the team win games, and it's even more frustrating because the Atlantic is such a shit show this year, but the organization is sticking to their plan for long-term benefit.

 

The plan frustrating to every fan, but is only flawed to impatient fans.

 

Bingo

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1 hour ago, Trizzak said:

It isn't. 

 

The organization from the top down, owner to waterboy, committed to a multi-season retool centered around drafting and trading for a new young core. It's the direction that Geoff Molson wanted and still wants. It's why the only things the Habs gave up at last year's deadline to shore up NHL depth were career AHLers and dropping 20 spots out of the 4th round into the 5th round in the draft (Chaput for Weal, Thompson and a 5th for a 4th, Folin and Weise for Schlemko and Froese.) It's why Shaw was traded in the summer for picks without a guaranteed replacement in the lineup. Even the Aho offer sheet was calculated in what they were willing to give up for it to be worthwhile long and short term. It's frustrating because we all want to watch the team win games, and it's even more frustrating because the Atlantic is such a shit show this year, but the organization is sticking to their plan for long-term benefit.

 

The plan frustrating to every fan, but is only flawed to impatient fans.

 

I think if his calling this a retool, the retool should be done. We now have the cap space and the prospects that we can make trades to add to this team. We didn't have that 3 years ago when we started this.

  But if he is going to continue to not add to the team and let the kids play , its a rebuild. he should not be giving fans false hope that we could make a cup run now. When he has no intention of making a cup run.

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21 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

 

I think if his calling this a retool, the retool should be done. We now have the cap space and the prospects that we can make trades to add to this team. We didn't have that 3 years ago when we started this.

  But if he is going to continue to not add to the team and let the kids play , its a rebuild. he should not be giving fans false hope that we could make a cup run now. When he has no intention of making a cup run.

 

I could care less whether MB calls it a retool, rebuild or reset. I think he realizes now that he has to build with young players as he is working from a disadvantaged position regarding free agents. I am leaning toward trading some of the veterans and seeing if he can work a miracle come draft time.  This year has gone south in a hurry and the injuries have exacerbated an already precarious situation. I am a patient guy, yeah I know it's been a bzillion years since they have won a cup but the only way to get it done right is to build through the draft and have some good veteran leadership so the kids learn properly. 

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1 minute ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I could care less whether MB calls it a retool, rebuild or reset. I think he realizes now that he has to build with young players as he is working from a disadvantaged position regarding free agents. I am leaning toward trading some of the veterans and seeing if he can work a miracle come draft time.  This year has gone south in a hurry and the injuries have exacerbated an already precarious situation. I am a patient guy, yeah I know it's been a bzillion years since they have won a cup but the only way to get it done right is to build through the draft and have some good veteran leadership so the kids learn properly. 

That's bull if we're a team close to wining a cup players will sign here.  Also theirs always the trade route, so  stop using the disadvantage as a excuse.

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44 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

That's bull if we're a team close to wining a cup players will sign here.  Also theirs always the trade route, so  stop using the disadvantage as a excuse.

 

But we are not close to winning the cup, that's reality unfortunately.  Gardiner didn't want to play in the spotlight in Montreal. MB has shown that he is not afraid of making trades, he has made more than most GM's. I never said I was against MB making trades. 

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3 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

But we are not close to winning the cup, that's reality unfortunately.  Gardiner didn't want to play in the spotlight in Montreal. MB has shown that he is not afraid of making trades, he has made more than most GM's. I never said I was against MB making trades. 

 

His trades are for mostly 4th line players. Other gm's make less trade's but for better talented players / top line players.

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1 minute ago, Habsfan89 said:

 

His trades are for mostly 4th line players. Other gm's make less trade's but for better talented players / top line players.

 

The caliber of his trades is a valid point.  There is a lot of 3rd line/4th line/bottom pair type activity in is body of work.

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